I disowned my N mother

[2224Jessica]

Hi Tejaspear,
I can totally relate to what you are saying.... I admire your genuineness, caring nature, strength, courage and maturity... I have recently cut off contact with my nmum and am going through dealing with life without her... I have two young children and a great husband (he also suffered abuse from his parents). I am now concentrating on moving forward and being a great mother and wife. It must have been hard being a single mum and I do understand what you mean by it being easier being alone than suffering being with an abuser. I left home at 16 and I was alone but I prefered it to being with her. There's a peacefulness about it. I was stuck in the denial stage for many years and I couldn't settle but didn't know why. I have moved through all the stages now but I found the anger stage hard because I had to stop myself losing it at her. But I was glad when it passed.
I am at the point that I don't need her to love or approve of me. Finding out that she is a narc has allowed me to really accept myself. I also feel no more guilt or obligation to have her in my life. I am excited about my new found freedom. I really hope she leaves me alone so I can move on.
Thanks
Jessica

[tejaspear]

Thanks for your heartfelt words, Jessica!

Good luck with your new N-free life!

I'm trying to keep a certain ex-"almost boyfriend" out of my life now by using reverse psychology, i.e., cutting off Narcissistic Supply (giving no admiration, showing no fear and just basically being un-useful to him). He has always talked about he wants us to be "friends for life." There was something he wanted me to do last time he called and I declined to do it and said nothing to feed the N needs. His anger came through very bitingly at the end of the phone call. I'm just not going to get in touch with him anymore and pretty much do the same if he calls me again.

My best friend just realized a month ago that both her mother and estranged husband of ten years are narcissists, and it has explained a lot to her, but now they are both very old, (he much older than her and in and out of the hospital for the past year), and she can't bring herself to abandon them. She started going to a therapist she had seen in the past who is really wonderful, and told her, "I know the only way to deal with an N is to cut them out of your life, but I'm not going to do that. I can't do that when they are so needy." She's been driving 800 miles round trip every two weeks for the past year to succor them -- with her N mother and N husband pulling on her as if on two ends of a taffy pull. Recently her therapist suggested she slowly make changes -- like going there every 3rd week instead of every 2nd week.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, sometimes a milder approach is easier in situations where the person has currently been around a lot. I was so lucky to be able to cut off from my N mother when I had only seen her about 2 times in ten years and only heard from her every year or two -- and that after she herself had cut me off for most of my life since I was eight years old. So, for me it was much easier to "end it" pretty much in one fell swoop. Maybe that is the best way for others, too, I don't know. All I know is that it has been a very, very good thing...!!!!!!!!!   

Best wishes to you and your husband and family!

Hugs,
TP

[Hopalong]

I feel like mentioning this now and then:
I'm not sure the only answer, ever, with a narcissistic individual is to cut them out of your life.
I think what matters is HOW narcissistic they are. And equally, HOW vulnerable you are to them.

With some, they're not all-the-way, full=blown Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
They may have some, or almost all, of those narcissistic behaviors and characteristics, but not be as dangerous to your mental health as very severe Ns.

Does anybody else struggle to get clarity on that? I mean, whether someone is all-N (as in full-blown NPD) or "degree of N"? I find it hard to sort out.

Teja, I thought this was a wonderful example of how to cope with an N or N-ish person you really do want to get completely out of your life:
he wants us to be "friends for life." There was something he wanted me to do last time he called and I declined to do it and said nothing to feed the N needs. His anger came through very bitingly

I really like the simplicity of how you cut through his gushy (insincere) desire for lifetime friendship. One bit of defiance, and BAM. There's a slice. Very insightful and powerful how precisely you spotted the pattern.

That is very consistent with what I've experienced with an Nhub and several Nbfs. Less so with NMom, as she does struggle to be kind. She's sort of emotionally blank from her damage (and usually totally self-absorbed in what she chatters about), but she does want to be a good Christian and I can see her try hard to tap into that wisdom. Sometimes I've been very moved by her occasional loving gestures. Because I know what an achievement they are, even though they would just seem natural to a mother who had all the emotional equipment for loving.

Just rambling...thanks for listening. (Had a painful phone figh with my daughter last night, which is why I'm thinking about this. We did make it up, right away, so I feel better. But I do experience a kind of emotional agony when I have conflict with her. I think it's because she's been the one place where I always have trusted there would be love and connection, and now in her 20s, it's been strained.)

Hopalong

Hopalong

[tejaspear]

Oh Hopalong, I know what you mean about the pain of having conflict with your child. It's a pain that is very hard to bear. I haven't experienced it much or often, but boy, those times I did it just about killed me.

It was funny -- reading about your N mom and how she tries so hard to be a good Christian and all. Sounds VERY much like my ex-b/f's N ex-wife. She is so spiritual, in fact, that this is the excuse he uses not to let go of her.

But I hear what you're saying, that maybe not all N's are best cut off totally. To me the measuring stick would be just how much one needs to cut them off in order to not be vulnerable to further damage. Obviously there are a lot of Ns in this world, and they can't be cut off by everyone, but it's just so hard to have a primary relationship with them.

Red Hawk's (my ex-b/f) N ex-wife has made a great effort to be a good friend to him for the past year or two and even helped him out from time to time. However the fact remains that she has never taken responsibility nor apologized for some of her most damaging actions, which have been really flagrant. And so now here she is, being the oh-so-spiritual (she's even a "healer' by profession!) "good friend," but managed to make sure that her ex did not have a chance with me by "innocently" calling him up at strategic times, etc.

My feeling is that any N I keep as a friend should be a distanced friend, at least in that I will not give that N personal information that could be used to manipulate me. That's hard to do, though.  ;(

[Hopalong]

Teja,
I think you should definitely stick to your instincts about RedHawk and his ex! They are still all wrapped up in a toxic waltz that will trample anyone who comes into their orbit.

And don't second-guess yourself about the other ex-N either. That "bite" is real. Good for you for witholding the supply.

You're drawing boundaries. Takes practice and it's never perfect. But you sure do sound like you're determinedly moving in the right direction.

Hops

[tejaspear]

Thanks so much, Hops. I love your eloquent prose by the way. That one line is so poetic I shall have to cut and paste it somewhere!

You and I also have a lot in common in that we are single women in our 50s. Meeting new men is such a scary thing, knowing what poor judgments I have made in the past, but it does get better even when only slowly.

There is one guy I haven't met in person yet. He is extremely vague when I ask him about what caused his last breakup. I had better find out what it is he is being vague about, huh? He basically just says that he didn't live up to her idealized ideal of what a lover should be, but gave no examples. Maybe I should ask him for an example...

One part of me thinks I should not meet anyone too soon and another part of me thinks I should just jump back on the horse after a fall. In the past I would go for months after each breakup, afraid to meet another man. In a way I think it might be good to meet when I'm feeling so cautious, since my MO has always been to trust too soon and too easily.  Any thoughts?

[Hopalong]

Off the top of my head, "extreme vagueness" sounds like a red flag.
I've kind of added to my list: openness.
It doesn't mean that everybody had to be a flaming extrovert, but evasiveness might be something to pay attention to. It sounds like a suggestion that dishonesty might be an issue.

Since you asked, hope you don't mind this suggestion: could it be a red flag of your own that your response to his vagueness is to want to hone in and get closer so you can find out more?

Instead of saying to yourself, hmm. No thanks. I think I'll wait for someone who's open and at ease.

I'm saying that only because it sounds SO familiar. I always thought red flags were such a pretty color...

(Another thought: dunno if these are Internet acquaintances--perfectly good way to meet people esp. in middle age---but one of the wisest things I read about the process was this advice: Do not invest a lot of time in an email correspondence. Try to check out simply the basics and see if something feels appealing. Don't spill your guts or share deep intimacies before you've met. (The same book suggests
no more than five or six email exchanges--a few nice paragraphs, not pages--and then if you're both interested, set a coffee date. Daytime, limited time, and no further.) That way you curb the fantasizing until you have a 3-D sense of who this person might be. And above all, everything slooooooowly.

that help?
Hopalong

[tejaspear]

Thanks, Hopalong. Yes, I definitely agree on the part of meeting soon. Actually he invited me for coffee or a meal today, but my work schedule today won't allow for making plans. Here's what he said that sounded vague:

"This is hard to communicate, but she wanted me to conform to her vision or desire or need for a certain person.  It was not overt pressure and not insistent on her part, but she let me know frequently that I wasn't doing things right somehow. It was hard for me to be such a huge disappointment to her." 

What do you think? Is that too vague? Thus far this particular guy is looking pretty healthy in a lot of ways -- and definitely not into "going too fast."

[Hopalong]

To me it's vague. No specifics, just kind of amorphously blaming her for being controlling, and saying how he suffered. (Not that I ever got that straightforward myself until about last week, but I think a healthier sign is to just say, we didn't really click, didn't work out, found out we didn't have enough in common....things like that that.)

I know those may sound vague too but I'm pretty bloodhound-nosed about "blaming". I feel much better when someone says, well this person contributed X, and my part in the equation was Y. When you look closely at his statement...it's all her fault. Blaming.
But not flaming red, imho...just fuzzy.

I guess maybe you're right. If other signs seem pleasant and you'd like to have a coffee (that's another thing the book said--wish I could remember the title---DON'T think about having "a relationship" with a new man. Think about having "a cup of coffee or a lunch". IOW, stay strictly in the present and pay attention. Don't futurize. Healthy relationships are built very slowly and in the present.

(I know! I think it was that book I mentioned on another thread, A Fine Romance by Judith Sills.)

Sorry, I'm skipping around. Maybe if you do meet and do like him, then you could pursue asking for some specifics.

Another thought I dredged from some other book was to consider every date "practice"--a chance to interact in a positive way, pay close attention to your intuition (alert to your own overeagerness as well as another's)...etc. That also reduces the tendency to fast-fuse...unhealthily romanticize or attach before you truly know enough about the other person. So it couldn't hurt to meet him unless you feel too vulnerable and raw after RedHawk.

Hopalong

[tejaspear]

Thanks, Hops!  Good thoughts. I like the idea of thinking of meeting different men as "practice." Surely is a better practice than the kind of "practice" I got with Red Hawk, LOL.

I had decided just before I read your post that I would not ask further questions about his last relationship until and unless I meet him for coffee or whatever and think I would like to see him again. It may be that I will know from other things that it's a no-go anyhow.

I ordered that book "A Fine Romance" from the used book marketplace at Amazon.com and should get it in about a week. Thanks again for that recommendation. I just LOVE the idea and possibilities of having a HEALTHY relationship. Feeling "in love with health," which is a great feeling.

I remember the bad old days, grieving and pining and anguishing over N men in my life, and being almost addicted to the pain (so it seems, when it was so hard to let go!). One thing for sure, I am not addicted to being long-suffering anymore! I think when I was younger the N love interest seemed to be the "be all and end all" and I could not imagine ever loving another. Not so today.

Another book I like is by Barbara De'Angelis, Ph.D., "Are You the Right One for Me?" She has some really good stuff in there about the common mistakes made when picking the wrong person, and things to look and watch for both healthy and unhealthy.

She talks about watching the old relationships in your head "like a movie," and then do a freeze frame at the red flags.

I look back at some of the red flags with Red Hawk and think, "Wow. There was a spot where it would have been so cool if I had just ended it right then and there with total assurance." It was the self-doubt and that part of me "wanting to be fair" that kept me hanging around for more:

He says he will never give up being close friends with his ex-wife? Well, maybe it would be unfair of me to expect otherwise. He said, "If that's going to be a problem for you, you may as well dump me right now." Yes, he said that -- more than a couple of times! I should have just gotten up from my chair right then and there and said, "I can't promise that will not be a problem for me, so I better give you your pink slip right now then" and just walked out the door, gotten in my car and driven away. Now THAT would have been cool. 

I like thinking of things that happened with Red Hawk and others that were blaring red flags, and imagining what choices I could have made at those times that would have saved me so much pain and regret.

Patience is so important. I know I can't order a good potentially long-term partner like breakfast at a diner. I must pace myself reasonably and just check, check, check, letting many plates move right on by. One day my plate will come. 

Hugs,
TP

[Lily]

Hello Tejaspear,

This is a bit of a tricky post to make, it was a bit of a surprise to me to see a plug for Mr Prem 'Maharaji' Rawat on this board.  Shouldn't have been really in that I used to be a premie and I'm here!

Sorry to be the bearer of The Awful Truth but he is just another of many who got rich out of being a guru.  Just reciting his full list of names should help - Balyogeshwar Param Sant Ji went on a bit more if I recall correctly.  Guru Maharaj Ji to whom we sang The Lord of the Universe has come to us this day.  Asking yourself why the foot kissing?  the arti tray swinging? the ashrams, the Agya?

The metamorphasis from Lord of the Universe, bringer of light destroyer of darkness via Maharaji, family man and pilot (just call me the Boss or Lord in private but act normal in public) to the current Prem Rawat, humanitarian and inspirational speaker without ever admitting to being wrong (it is always the stupid premies, the stupid instructors, the stupid organisers who got it wrong) is a testament to Narcissistic lying.

As you said so poignantly

"Wow. There was a spot where it would have been so cool if I had just ended it right then and there with total assurance." It was the self-doubt and that part of me "wanting to be fair" that kept me hanging around for more:

I can so relate to that.  And I have a suggestion to make.  Why not do an internet search on Maharaji and do a bit of digging.  Then you can get some practise on dumping narcissists with cool assurance and lots of style by doing it to your guru.

Jai Sat Chit Anand, tastelessly yours, Lily. 

[tejaspear]

Hi Lily, thanks but been there and done that (freaking about all the rumors, etc. about him). What he offers really works for me and keeps me sane on a daily basis. He is not someone I interact with on a personal level in my life, but rather as a guide from afar, and I never can thank him enough for putting his message and help out there for people like me who really have needed it. Someday if I ever am a part of his personal life, (which is extremely unlikely), then I'll worry about judging him on a personal level. Meanwhile, all the really bad stuff is no better than heresay, because I know too many people who HAVE been very close to him personally for very long periods of time and I know the other side of the story too. I believe he is a force for the Good in this world, but obviously not for everyone.

One thing that is very clear to me is that Maharaji inherited his role at a VERY young age. All the foot kissing and lord of the universe talk was something that he really inherited. I find it INCREDIBLE and beautiful how much he has peeled OFF that stuff. He could easily have gone other ways. Instead, he has pared down his message to its most simply and common denominators, forsaking all the religiosity and such. He started getting rid of that stuff while still a teenager, and now in his late forties, it is incredible to see the transformation. I applaud him very much for this. A lesser man could and would not have done it.

I have also had the most incredible and REAL experiences of love and awakening directly under his influence. Nothing will ever change that.

I'm sorry it didn't work for you, but I really do believe that many rivers lead to the same Ocean. I trust you have found the river that works for you, and if not will find it.

TP

[jordanspeeps]

Hey TP,

Congratulations on your journey.  I just wanted you to know I find your posts inspiring and evolved.   I'm glad you decided to open up about your meditations.  I'm encouraged by your words and I hope you find the peace and happiness we all deserve in life.  I just happen to be in the process of learning more about meditation and how it can heal your mind.  I want to incorporate meditation and visualization into my spiritual life as a way to gain acceptance about my circumstances, (a family full of Ns), and to develop new methods of shifting negative energies away from me.  Can you suggest other articles, websites, or reading materials on meditation (101, for-dummies, that kind of thing)?  I'm Christian, is it okay to mix the two concepts, I wonder?

Thanks for sharing,
Tiff

[tejaspear]

Hi Tiff,

Thanks for your kind words. The meditation I practice is the only one I have ever practiced. It's worked for me so well that I never sought another, so I can't tell you about all the choices, only mine. The one I do, (which isn't really called meditation so much as "practicing"), is absolutely fine to do whatever religion you are -- and even for those who do not choose to have any religion. (I personally am a Christian.) Anyhow, a link to find out about the practice I do is at http://www.contact-info.net. I have, especially the past 15 years, been practicing for at least one hour a day.

Best wishes on your journey!

TP

[Lily]

"I'm sorry it didn't work for you, but I really do believe that many rivers lead to the same Ocean."

Hey, thanks for caring.  I'm just glad to be out though, I did it for a long time.  It's still called Knowledge? that was abbreviated from Knowledge of God.

It is four techniques of what is commonly called meditation.  From the Hindu Yoga tradition.  You can find the techniques in plenty of yoga books.  In the first one you put your fingers on your eyes plus one on your forehead, the second in your ears, the third is following your breath, and the fourth is putting your tongue back.  Before they were abbreviated to one two three and four they were light, music, holy name and nectar....and were supposed to connect you with God, the lack of which was suggested by Maharaji and the Mahatmas to be the reason you felt disconnected.

I suppose I've shocked you a bit by writing so explicitly about the techniques, they are supposed to be kept secret aren't they? The reason given for this used to be that they didn't work properly unless they came with the Grace of Maharaji.

And that's why I've spelled it out.  This is meditation plus a guru.  Not just meditation.

I could say a bit in response to what you say about Mr Rawat, but you would find it disrespectful of him, and I do respect your sincerity and would not want you to feel I was disrespectful of you which I fear you may considering the high esteem you hold him in. 

As I said, thanks for caring, and I meant it.  All too often premies are very quick to shun those who leave without any consideration of how they may be feeling.