Struggling with decision

[Portia]

Hiya Plucky, so glad you’re writing all this.

You deserve to talk about yourself. You have a right to TALK. And be listened to.

Yeah that P was me. Just a quickie then because I was soooo glad you posted. Really glad!

I think, maybe, possibly….your H has turned you into his mother. Either you’re his mother in his mind, or (maybe and), he’s manipulated you through his actions into actually behaving like his mother. So he can repeat all that stuff – probably being rebellious, isolating himself in the home etc etc.

HE IS SUCH A CHILD. He’s emotionally how old? I don’t know. 6? 12? 16?

His sense of personal responsibility at home is zero. He behaves like a (wounded) recalcitrant child.

Okay, he does have problems, he has lots of issues. But that is not your problem.

Your first responsibility is to yourself and your kids. And you have to look after yourself to care for your kids. You ain’t his mom.

I don’t know if you should divorce or not. I think if you could live apart from him for a day, a week, a month – to just get some breathing space for yourself, to be able to concentrate on you and your kids without having to consider him all the time … it would be great. Is that at all possible? Could he physically leave for a while? Would he? It doesn’t have to be divorce or nothing. A break from each other, or temporary separation – whatever you want to call it.

I don’t know what’s going on at work with him, but it sounds as though he’s getting some of his needs met there. I guess he gets attention, recognition, status, a sense of worth etc from work.

What do you get for yourself and where does it come from?   

I get the sense you have no time to think about yourself. And maybe you feel selfish about thinking about yourself. Being self-ish for some of the time is necessary, not an optional extra. Nothing wrong with it.

I sense that what you need very much is time to think about yourself, what you need, what you want – without having to consider where your H fits in.

This is a great place to do just that.  To keep thinking and talking about you! It’s a gift you can give yourself. And no guilt about it either! The opposite – thinking is darn hard work and you can praise yourself for doing it.You are doing good for yourself by posting this thread. Excellent

You don’t have to make a decision right now, you don’t have to make any decisions unless you want to. You’re free to vent, ponder, ask, consider, change your mind as you wish. No deadlines but the ones you want to set. pppp..Portia

[Sela]

Hiya ((((((((((Plucky)))))))))):

I feel honoured that you trust us enough to post all of this stuff that is tormenting you.  Thankyou for that.  I bet you will counter that you are the grateful one but honestly......I just feel you have come such a long way since arriving here and have given us a gift........and I truly want to thank you.

And each time my disdain for him grows.  In the recent past, this was anger but now I generally just feel ickiness.

Icky isn't any fun either, is it?  In the above I see two very, very, very detrimental statements:

1.  "...my disdain for him grows."

and 2.  "I..... feel ickiness".

These two things alone are enough for me to bluntly suggest that you are not in a marriage......you are in a bad relationship that is causing you harm.

I've been in shoes similar to yours Plucky.  I remember the confusion and the frustration and the many, many thoughts and feelings that ALSO drained my spirit (along with doing ALL of the household work and being the SOLE care giver to my children.......my ex never changed a diaper, never pushed a stroller, never took a child to the park or anywhere for that matter, never dressed, fed or cuddled or played with his children, ever....nothing.  He layed on the couch (when he was home), watched sports, got drunk, and criticised whatever III was doing.  Neither did he answer me when I spoke/or made eye contact/or behaved in any way kindly toward me.......for years!!!  He would do nothing unless I coaxed and begged or nagged and bitched and howled and even then....it was when heeeeeeeeee was ready......ifffffffffff heeeeeeeeeeeee felt like it).  It was easier to just do everything myself.  There is much more that I could put here but I won't.  I just want you to know that you're not alone.   And that you are notttttttt over-reacting!!

You're not alone Plucky and thanks for reaching out here......for trusting.....because you will help others to do the same thing....maybe.  You're doing a good thing for you and for others and for me too by posting and sharing and trusting.  I think that's a great sign that you are regaining part of yourself.....if you feel like part has been lost?? ... because you're not just plodding along like a robot....doing what you have to do and keeping your feelings inside.........trying to bury them........seething.   Expressing your thoughts and feelings here is such a good thing, Plucky!  It's waaaaaaaay better than trying to push it all down or keep it all in....and just keep going.  I want to encourage you to keep posting.

What helped me decide?  I went to Alanon.  I learned how to live with my H without allowing him to effect my feelings---by choosing what to think and how to react (as someone else said......"don't let him change you").  I had changed because of his behaviour and Alanon helped me to change back.....quite a bit.  After awhile...I felt pretty good.  I was much happier.  A much better parent too....more energy.....able to laugh from my gut....I enjoyed stuff...my kids......made a little space for myself....started taking care of me too....in little ways.    Then one day, I was sitting at the table, in the middle of an Alanon meeting and this thought crossed my mind:

"I don't want to be sitting here when I'm 64.  I can do this and it's much better than it was, but I don't want to be doing this when I'm ready to retire or even 10......15 years from now....when my kids are older."

I found a counsellor (where I didn't have to pay) because I knew I needed support.  An objective person to help me sort out my choices and help me see stuff clearly in order to make a realistic decision.  I told her "I need help to separate from my husband" and she helped me.

Keep posting Plucky and find someone in the real world to talk to......if you possibly can.   Someone not emotionally involved.   Someone who will help you do whatever you want to do.
 

It sounds insane but to be honest, having no help at all is a LOT easier than having unwilling help, or non-existant help.

It was like this for me too, as Cadbury wrote.  When I finally decided and we separated......I felt such relief.  Like a massive weight had been taken off my shoulders.  I was financially better off because he was drinking everything he brought home.....which still wasn't great but at least I had stability.  I did allllllll of the work but at least no one was telling me I was doing it wrong.   And there was peace in my home.
The tension was gone and that was sooo wonderful.  The best!  The tension that permeated the air was gone!

I spent a year trying to figure out what I had done wrong and feeling like a failure.  And I came to the conclusion that it wasn't alllllllllll me.  I'm not so bad.  I did a lot of things right.   And I was much better off not living with him.  It was hard to grieve and manage and work and parent but not as hard as living in chaos and disruption.....and not as hard as constantly protecting myself by choosing every thought and reaction....and trying to live my own life in the same habitat as someone who was seriously messed up.

My exH held a job and seemed like a real nice guy to the rest of the world.  He treated other people politely and used a pleasant or kind tone with them.  It was me he treated with disdain (while my disdain for him grew against my own wishes).   I was so much better off when he was gone......I can hardly put it into words.

I don't know if any of this will help you Plucky.  I hope so.  And thankyou for posting because you've helped me to trust a little more too.  To find the courage to press "post" rather than delete.   Keep posting for you.

Sela

[Sela]

PS:

I should also mention that ending our relationship was also good for my ex.  I think he was forced to live with himself........face some of himself.......whatever.  He cleaned up his act substantially and became a much better father to our kids than I think he would ever have been had we stayed together.  It took time for this to evolve but at least it did...to some extent.

Sela

[Hopalong]

Plucky,
I do agree with what a lot of people are saying...I think I hesitate because I was tormented about my daughter's pain afterward. But at that time (I was 36) I felt if I stayed I'd be throwing my life away.

I am so glad you're posting about the misery of it all....just getting it OUT will help clear the way for good thinking.

It's horrible how the issues of who is responsible for what in running a household and taking care of kids tends to split marriages apart. Sounds like there are such rigid sex roles in your family. He goes off to work and his work is done and he won't help at home, where the factory whistle never blows.

That kind of taking another person's labor for granted will poison anything. It's profoundly disrespectful. Who made you the maid? Staying home with the kids does NOT make one a maid, laundress, or governess.

Remember those stories where a wife/mother would go on strike? Just let the dishes go unwashed, laundry go undone, all those beyond-your-fair-share household duties go undone?

((((Plucky))))

Hopalong

[Brigid]

Plucky,
There isn't much more to be said than what has already been said by the others.  I completely understand your frustration with having your h be just another child in the household to manage and care for and who doesn't pick up his toys.  I lived with it for 22 years and would have continued to do so forever more so as not to be alone.  But he made the choice to leave and I can now say that it was the best thing that ever could have happened for both me and the children.

I had become numb to the lack of affection and attention, irresponsibility, childish behaviors and a marriage that barely existed.  I did everything except work outside the home and bring home a paycheck.  All he had to do was show up for dinner--and that was all he did.  He was never involved in one activity for his kids, but was more than willing to be president of the Rotary Club.  It was always about him.

I agree with what others have said about it being hard to have to run the house on your own, but you know you are already doing that and it's much easier knowing you are the only one rather than hoping your partner will step up and help out.  My xh was great at starting projects and never finishing them--so I always had some kind of mess started somewhere.  I don't have to deal with that BS anymore and everything is my choice.

One thing I would strongly recommend that you do is start working on giving yourself a break.  Let go of the need for everything to be perfect and running yourself into the ground trying to accomplish that.  Spend some relaxed, fun time with your children, then fix them mac and cheese from a box for dinner.  They will remember the time you spent with them--not the healthy, complete meals you spent hours preparing.  Perhaps some counselling would be good for you to help with this--and ultimately with the decision as to how to proceed with your marriage and how to talk to the children about it.

I have such a lovely bf now and am in a wonderfully loving, fun and passionate relationship.  I am finally in a love relationship with an adult who treats me with mutual respect and admiration.  He's still a guy who forgets things I tell him, wants to watch football on Sunday afternoon and doesn't want to spend hours talking about his feelings, but in the areas that really count, he's there for me and I can depend on him.  So as scary a concept as being alone can be, it doesn't have to last forever and you can rebound in a much happier place.

I wish you well as you try to work this out.  If you do decide to consider divorce, get a good attorney right away.  It eventually all comes down to the money and if you and the children can be well provided for.  That is one decision I have never regretted.

Brigid   

[Healing&Hopeful]

(((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))

I'm afraid I don't have any concrete advice for you, having not been in your situation.  However as being the child of your situation, and my parents did divorce, I can tell you it is a good thing to do if you feel it is the thing that will bring you the most happiness.  I do believe a happy mummy is a better mummy.

Through reading all your post, this is the thing that really struck me....

[I would also like a person who talks and listens to me, who touches me now and then, who spontaneously notices that I need help, am not feeling well, or got my hair done, at least sometimes, and who makes eye contact and responds audibly when I talk or ask a question. 

What you are asking for is perfectly reasonable and it's what another reasonable human being should be able to provide.

I feel its very hard for you, because whatever you decide, the road ahead will be hard, long and rocky, but I do believe we only get one shot at life and we have a lot of power as people to create our own happiness.

Thinking of you Plucky....

Take care

H&H xx

[Plucky]

Thank you everyone for your attention and support.  I really appreciate it more than my trite phrases can express.  Right now I am pressed for time as I have a couple of hours to tackle my many tasks.  Somehow I have given the impression that I'm keeping a perfect home, doing everything to a T...far from it.  But I'd like to be!

Plucky

[mum]

Plucky, I could add to the voices here that remember similar feelings of frustration, anger and confusion. But instead I will skip my "story" and get to the point: Please consider the following (no need to answer, really....just things to contemplate...things that got me "unstuck"):

What do you want for your life?
Is this it?
Do you feel you deserve what you want?
Are you worthy of it (in your OWN opinion)?
Is your tendency to take care of others instead of yourself, and if so, are you being taken advantage of (ok, not by your kids, but by someone who is supposed to be your "help mate"?)
What would life be like for you if you really believed you deserved better than what you feel now?
What would your life FEEL like if you had the life you wanted?
What things would have to be different for you to have the life you want and deserve?

Bless you, Plucky, I am sure the answers will show themselves to you in due time. Sending love and light.
PS: taking notes here on the great mother moment you had with your kids.... You are a great mom, you must know that!

[Plucky]

If the basis of this marriage is you being subservient, then why not become more assertive and see where it goes? BTW, why is music a solitary activity, unless he chose to make it so?

Thank you Marta,
Actually, I'm not subservient, but I don't like the nag I have become.  He does things. yes, but it's clear he does them only to shut me up (he accidentally said so one time) and there is no initiative.  I'm not asking for my mind to be read, but how many times does a person need to be told that the children have to brush their teeth in the morning?  Why can't he remember that if he has the children for several hours that they need to eat?   For me it is a passive-aggressive way to make me do everything I possibly can myself to avoid dealing with the hassle he presents.  And it works a lot.  I just wonder why he doesn't care that he has made me hate him.  Maybe because he hates himself.

His music consists of researching and buying new CDs and reading music mags.  I don't have time for that.  Most fo his music I don't like,  but now and then I like something.  Then when I look at the cover and see how much he paid, I just get mad.   So I try to ignore him.

As for losing the reluctant help with the family that you already feel you have in him, I would suggest that the amount of energy it takes to get him engaged in the process would conservatively be cut in half by not having him as the third child.

Sugarre and Cadbury,  I think you are right.  When he travels, I feel a weight lift off me and can be more playful with the children.  Of course the dishes pile up, but then we just go out for pizza!

He says he cares for you...but you're exhausted and angry. Same time, you do want him to spontaneously recognize what you need. (You're right, it should be obvious. But I recall hearing/reading so many people say that this--wanting "mind reading"-- is where so many marriages get derailed...in not being able to communicate clearly and with a cooperative spirit.)

Hi Hoppy,
yes communication is the problem, apparently.  That has been uncovered several times already.  However, my H is very uncomfortable with seemingly any form of communication.  If I say anything involving emotion, he is so threatened that he has to shut down for hours, or days.  Anything I mention takes him  hours to digest.  We were doing a thing where he would say he needed time to think about it.  Then I would wait for him to respond.  And wait and wait.  He never did.  If I asked about it, he wasn't ready yet.  So nothing, NOTHING, ever got resolved.   Well, there was the odd exception, of which there might be 3 over 8 years.

I am the type who likes to talk her feelings out.  But he would not, could not let me do that.  I would have been content with eye contact and an occasional "oh".  This was beyond him.  His reaction made me furious - looking away, leaving the room in the middle of my sentences, no verbal response at all.  I'm getting all worked up again just thinking about it.   Finally I gave up completely and now the only time we speak is when we need to work something out logistically.  Oddly enough, we get along better, except when I'm irate about the house work.  Well after this time, he went to a T and came home with 'exercises' from the T to strengthen our communication.    I was supposed to select one of the case histories in his book and identify which was us.  He had selected the one with emotional outburst and shutdown.  I picked the one where the relationship was dead and said I was not going to try anything to bring it back.  I think that was finally the point where he accpeted that I was serious.

Spend some relaxed, fun time with your children, then fix them mac and cheese from a box for dinner.  They will remember the time you spent with them--not the healthy, complete meals you spent hours preparing.  Perhaps some counselling would be good for you to help with this--and ultimately with the decision as to how to proceed with your marriage and how to talk to the children about it.

Brigid you are so right.  I do see the food thing as the one thing I do right.  But I have been thinking that I need to streamline it.  One problem is that my children have food allergies, so I do have to shop at some specialty stores and avoid the pre-prepared meals.  But there are some things I can do. 

My H starts projects too, and is very sloppy about them .  I guess I can be hard to live with.  I don't say anything any more, but he knows what I think and it bothers him.  I should not be so critical - he should just do the projects as a hooby and to involve the children, not to actually produce anything usable.  But I do resent all the extra messes he leaves about.

I do believe a happy mummy is a better mummy.

Thanks H&H.  You are sooooo right.

Mum, good questions.    Overall I am a prgamatic person who likes to plan rather than dream.  So in order to really really want something, I have to feel it is possible.  I am trying to imagine what is possible.  Much of it at this stage is the absence of things - things associated with my H.  But I also see the good things going as well (he takes out the garbage, etc), and some bad things coming as a result, such as financial problems, being stretched even more thin, emotional problems with my children, etc.   So if I can think my way through to a solution, I'll know what I want exactly.  In general, I want a happy life.  I want to be able to make and keep friends and be honest.  I want to pursue my interests freely.  I want to nurture my children happily.  I cannot imagine ever wanting to be in a relationship again, so no wishes in that area.  I just want to have a compost pile, a big dog, and lots of smiles with my lovely kids.       

Plucky

[Surrounded]

I know what you mean about the kids seeing the truth.  My oldest son (age 7) said recently....as he puts his feet up and sits in front of the TV, that "he was the boys and he was gonna sit there and his older sisters needed to bring him his lunch."

My H only laughed.  Not even embarrassed or anything normal.  But I sure was embarrassed, and mad.  At my H, yes, but at myself too.   Mostly myself.  What am I doing?  Sometimes I see my kids just waiting for the other shoe to drop.  They know. 

I tried to leave about two years ago and went to my parents house with them.  Within about an hour I realized as bad as he was for me, they were worse.  So I went back to him.  Of course, I had to apologize for what HE did and then listen to him tell me I had no right confusing the kids like that. 

I am ticked at my folks because I married him to get away from them.  I just didn't realize at the time what a messed up person he was.  I married him cause I thought they would approve of him.  Wrong, wrong, wrong.....

Here's what drives me crazy, does it you,Plucky?  Obviously, these guys (our Hs) NEED help--bad (emotionally).   I have tried to stand by him for so many years thinking he will grow up, or something, I guess.  Even got him into therapy about 8 years ago while he was having turmoil within his family of origin.  He just lied to the therapist and used him to validate himself.  Nothing wrong with him--ya know.  It's everybody else's fault he's screwed up.  He even told the T that our relationship was wonderful.  For him, maybe.   

But the therapist actually asked for me to come in and verify this, and me, being the voiceless pleaser, just said it was H who needed help right now and I would stand by him.  I'll bet that therapist wanted to get his hands on me and shake me.......he knew.  Just my husband is too blind and selfish. 

Now I feel bad for taking time for myself and how I feel.  Feels like I am in the last round of a boxing match.  I don't even like boxing, really,  but I've been dancing around the ring ducking, and dodging, and throwing feeble punches here and there.  But I am    saving my energy for the final KO.   

OOOH...it feels like an episode of Survivor--all this maneuvering.   

Plucky, I will be thinking of you and wishing you the best.

P.S.   Do you get ill when you know he is coming home?  I used to bad, now I'm just numb to it.  One thing is for sure, these feelings you feel are not normal, nor is your husband acting in a healthy way.  It's not black and white considering leaving, but take the steps you need to and keep your eyes open.  Yes, they do things nice here and there and then you feel like maybe this will be ok.....but pros and cons-wise....I'm sure the cons outweigh the pros.

[Plucky]

I should also mention that ending our relationship was also good for my ex.

Hi Sela,
I wonder what will become of my H after the divorce.  At one point I thought he would just drink himself to death, or catch something from a prostitute.  But now I think he will be fine.  All his pathetic posturing was just for control.     
Thanks for all your thoughts.  Your entire post is very helpful. 
I love you guys.
Plucky

[Hopalong]

Hey Miz Plucky,
We love you BACK.

I hope H had ravioli from a can for dinner.
(You can give that to the kiddies too and they'll think it's fun. Hope you never make beds either and toss cleanunfolded laundry on everybody's beds. And of course no more vacuuming... and have you quit brushing your teeth yet?)

You will find out over time how he turns out after the divorce. He will grieve, survive, and if he has the maturity, he will grow. But if he does or does not...that is HIS responsibility.

There is no question that you will grow (you already are...leagues). And I have a feeling you'll create a more peaceful divorce than most people are able to. It'll take time...walking through the trauma of it, all the bloody steps, but I think you will both have more peace once it's over.


(((((Plucky))))))))

Hops

[Plucky]

Yes, they do things nice here and there and then you feel like maybe this will be ok...

Hi Surrounded,
you really get it.  How I don't know, it doesn't sound like your hunka love ever has done anything right! 
Every time my H does something nice, I feel guilty that I am planning to leave.    I am not used to nice, as you also apparently are not.  So a little nice goes a long way.
Up until a year ago I did work.  And now we are partly living on my savings from my many decades of work,  so actually I am still providing in a way.  (Why am I throwing this in all of a sudden?  I guess the topic of guilt came up and...)
When he is about to come home, I start to feel tense and frozen.  I really hadn't thought about it.  Wow!

Hi Marta,
I do actually have wild dreams, and I intend to fulfill all of them one day.  But now my main thing is the children.  However, if I can be a ski bum for a year, or live on a cruise ship, if I find a way, I'm there!  In the meanwhile I just want a realisable future that I can actually have and plan and will not waste my time daydreaming.  Does that sound too flat?  I feel I have limited resources in time and emotional energy and I just want to get my hands on a new life that I can count on without it being too much of a stretch or a juggling act. 

I completely understand your frustration with having your h be just another child in the household to manage and care for and who doesn't pick up his toys.

Brigid how did you know this?  Have you been living in my closet?   And tell me, is the term "tidy up" somehow difficult to interpret?

we only get one shot at life

Yes, H&H I guess this is why I am finally getting off my bum to do something before I'm too old to pack boxes.

Hoppy,
I had H warm up leftovers for dindin.  See, I'm listening!

mum, everybody, I really, get something out of each and every story.  Tell meeeeee!   I am a concrete person who learns by example more than by theory.  So I glean lots from the stories.  Please don't feel that yours is repetitive - I take a long time to learn something and hijacking is ok.  And every person who writes something touches my heart.

Plucky

[mum]

ok, Plucky, here's a story.

I married someone who did a really good job of making me feel as bad about myself as I felt I deserved to feel.
I stayed with him "for the children" for 13 years, and finally left him "for the children". The following may explain that.

He supported my negative self image by being non existant as a father ( escept when it was fun) and basically absent as a partner (both physically and emotionally). I was a single mother, but married.  He was a giant sized child.

I resented him entirely and loved nothing more than for him to travel for work so I could have some peace. I would then fantasize about him dying and my having that peace forever.  I thought that his dying would be easier for the kids than divorce.  Then I got a golden opportunity (that had presented itself before, mind you) in his affair with a much younger woman. Frankly, though, it was a coward's opportunity, as if I had been honest with myself, I wouda/shoulda left him WAY before that one.

I decided that I wanted my children to have a chance to see true love. What they were seeing instead was nothing like that, in the way he was absent so much and while with us, controlling and verbally abusive. The thought that carried me through was that if I stayed with him, I would be passing on a legacy from HIS father and mother that HE chose to emulate.  I had a better idea and example of how life and love could be, and it was my duty to show my children that option.  If they never got to see my with a partner and in love, then they would see true love in how I loved myself enough to create the life I truly deserved.
I had to break free of this prison of a relationship, where I was in a service position (taking care of everything) while he played like a big baby/bully.

 I knew that if I "forgave" this affair (yet again) that he would only continue in this pattern of betrayal, dishonesty and abuse.  I decided I was worth more thank that. It was the most frightening thing I have ever done, but like all bravery, the making of me.

It has been 10 years almost since that, and it's only in the last 3 that I have truly been learning WHY I married and had children with him, and what that had to do with my learning as a soul.  It was important.  It was part of my path, and although I wish sometimes I had married my best love 25 years ago....the universe has acually delivered exactly that to me....just a little later. It was all part of my path, and I regret none of it, for I have 2 beautiful children, who have their own paths to follow in this life, part of which is having an asshole for a dad.  Something and someone they will learn from as well.

Even now, as I embark soon on my new life in my "heart home" where I grew up, I realize those challenges relating to this idiot continue, and for a good reason. I believe I have a duty to my daughter in particular, to show her that a woman's worth is every bit as big and grand and important as a man's.  I have a duty to demonstrate to her what taking control of one's life looks like, how a person can CREATE with love and possibility instead of being trapped as a victim of circumstance and past decisions.

No one is meant to live half way. And although this means a hard lesson for my daughter coming up, she NEEDS to learn this (how to stand up for herself) and I cannot prevent that for her by not living my life.   To do so would be a true mistake as a mother and teacher of love (our true role). 
LOVE is not cruel, or afraid, or counting up mistakes, or seeing a LACK of anything. Love is running this universe. Whenever I get out of my own way (loves way) I have grown, and allowed my children to do so as well.

I know it's more of the "look into your heart" kind of advice, but that's what saved me.  Answer the question "what do you want?" with something positive (not just what you don't want) and the answers (tough ones, either way) will come crashing down on you....get ready.

[mum]

I realized, along with all the typos, that when I wrote that last epistle, it may have sounded like my son would not benefit as well from my independence. I should explain that he is almost an adult and emancipated, and that it is my daughter who will still have to deal with her dad more regularly and have to stand up to him in this next bit of legal stuff. 
Also, it may be helpful to know that my son is the most caring, kind and respectful boyfriend to a lovely and intellegent girl. He has not become his father in any way shape or form.  I like to think it was because I got out before he saw too much of my acceptance of his father's bad behavoir.