Kissing....

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya all

Via PM, Portia and me were discussing the situation with bio dad, the day he spent kissing his girlfriend in front of me when I was a kid.  With Portia’s encouragement, she suggested that this may be best on the board to get everyone’s views.

When I was a teenager, I kissed another guy in front of my boyfriend at the time, to make him jealous and Portia picked up that I may have been repeating what happened with my dad.

From the PM:- “Regarding the kissing, yes I think your right...I probably did repeat what my dad had done, where he was kissing his ex girlfriend on the sofa.

But I think him doing that just made it ok, if you know what I mean.

Sometimes when we see something a parent does, it doesn't register that it's not a correct thing to do.... so it's like it's ok as dad did that, that means it's ok for me to do it.... make any sense?”

I’m probably not explaining this very well.

H&H xx

[Hopalong]

Makes total sense to me H&H:

We totally pick up on the behavior they model for us. That's our JOB as kids, to pay close attention to our grownups and learn how to be one, what's acceptable and not. That's why so many behaviors get handed down...

The good news is, people like you are caring and conscientious and alert enough to begin to pick up on when they taught you an inappropriate or destructive lesson. And you are smart enough to UNlearn it, just as you were smartly learning it when you were younger.

Somewhere, H&H, you obviously got some modeling of constructive, responsible and loving behavior too. Since neither of your bioparents gave it to you, I wonder where you found it? Was there another adult or two who seemed kind, or behaved more normally? Or were you just so full of inner life that you somehow carved out this good heart and decency for yourself on your own?

Whatever you did, you did a GOOD JOB in growing yourself up, since they certainly weren't much help.

Admiringly,

Hopalong

[Healing&Hopeful]

Somewhere, H&H, you obviously got some modeling of constructive, responsible and loving behavior too. Since neither of your bioparents gave it to you, I wonder where you found it? Was there another adult or two who seemed kind, or behaved more normally? Or were you just so full of inner life that you somehow carved out this good heart and decency for yourself on your own?

Thank you for your kind words and glad you could understand where I was coming from... Fair play to Portia for being able to see that in the first place.

Good role models for me was my Stepdad.  While he didn't stick up for me, I only saw him angry about 3/4 times.  He did (and still does) genuinely love me and it meant a lot to me that he WANTED to be my dad.  I have said for many years that I have 3 parents in me, my bio parents and my stepdad because I learned so many of my behaviours from him.  He is a really lovely guy, and although a bit of a doormat, I still preferred him to the rest of them... still do.  That's why it was really important for me to have him walk me down the isle... it was my way of saying thank you!

Other role models were grandparents, and my boss from when I was 17.  They helped me loads too. xx

[Portia]

Thanks for posting this H&H.

I’ll tell you my train of thought on this. My aim was to answer your question of a while back when you said you’d read our comments about ‘emotional incest’ and so on and couldn’t really grasp it? Couldn’t grasp exactly why we thought that was what your Dad was doing to you?

And I thought maybe if this was made clear somehow it might help; maybe for you to see him in yet another light.

So I have an objective of sorts behind this. And I got a logic breakdown with this kissing thing. This is how it goes:

As a kid (how old btw?) you were at his house and he spent the day snogging his girlfriend (she was how old? Is this the one who went into care work?) on the sofa. This made a deep impression and I’m not surprised.

Perhaps so deep an impression that you did indeed repeat it with your boyfriend, kissing another man in front of him to make him jealous.

It’s this part that says to me what your Dad did to you:

Sometimes when we see something a parent does, it doesn't register that it's not a correct thing to do.... so it's like it's ok as dad did that, that means it's ok for me to do it.

The thing that struck me was: yes, it’s okay for Dad to do it to you, so it’s okay for you to do it but – but – your Dad is/was not your boyfriend. And you aren’t/weren’t his girlfriend.

What your Dad did that day (and on other occasions) was to make you jealous of his girlfriend. You’re his daughter, not his girlfriend. But he did not behave towards you like a father.

You knew very quickly that it wasn’t okay to behave like that and I agree with Hop that you’ve done an amazing job at growing up.

*sigh* my objective was to ‘out’ your dad in your mind a bit more. Now I’m not sure whose Dad I wanted to out!

Maybe this says more about me and my fathers than you and yours? I honestly can’t tell. That’s why I needed you to put it on the board so it’s up for interpretation. So thank you H&H. Over to anyone else please.

[Hopalong]

I agree and this nails it, imho, by Portia:

What your Dad did that day (and on other occasions) was to make you jealous of his girlfriend. You’re his daughter, not his girlfriend. But he did not behave towards you like a father.

Really important, H&H, is to NOT feel badly about yourself that your poor psyche was vulnerable to that jealous display. Your bioDad had crossed boundaries with you many times and sometimes subtly and sometimes obviously...that's just WHO HE IS (an invasive inappropriate N man who was and is unaware and unshamed of sexualizing his own daughter). You were a CHILD but he was TRAINING you to respond...on some level, as "his woman". It's not YOUR fault that his sexual acting-out with the gf in front of you triggered your unaware echo of acting-out in front of your bf years later.

So it's not at all strange that you've had weird moments like that in relation to him or memories of him or current fascination with him. (You know, I'm starting to understand more, I think, about the strong pull you feel toward reading his website, when I used to always want to push you to stop. I think you are intelligently studying him, and that the more you figure him out, the stronger and more powerful you're getting. Does that make sense? There is no contact, and it's from a distance, after all..) Maybe it's kind of like, Know Thine Enemy. You seem to be learning so much, and benefitting from your new understandings about him a lot. Maybe it's no problem at all to look at what he's ranting about, especially if you maintain your no contact rule.

I am guessing, but do you find that there are still loose pieces of pschosexual dreck or confusing memories or things that are just hard to reason out--that float up inside you now and then? If that's so, it must feel gross and disorienting when it happens. Maybe you could just think of this stuff as leftover symptoms from a serious illness you had once. You know you are over it and are going to live a long healthy life, but every now and then your body remembers and throws a sensation at you.

Don't know if I'm making sense but you sure are,

Hops

[Healing&Hopeful]

((((((((((Hoppy))))))))))) & (((((((((((Portia)))))))))))

Big hugs to you both.  I have to say I am amazed with how much insight you have to see things and I am really pleased that you took time to share your thoughts with me, especially as you have so much going on in your own lives.

I have read and re-read your comments and you have both explained so well.  I do see it clearly now.  How old was I?  This is a bit hazy in fairness.  For years I thought his girlfriend was only four years older than me and it was only when I moved in with bio dad that I found out she was six years older.  So I would be about 9/10/11 and she would be about 15/16/17.  There is another really yukky bit to this where he used to be proud if someone mistook his girlfriend for his daughter (happened often because she was so young and his mates knew he had a daughter!).

You are right Hoppy about why I read his web stuff.  I had another revelation last night as well.  When all the stuff was happening with him and I had finally had enough, I sent him this short email:-

“I've had a think and if you really want things to get better between us then how do you suggest we do this?  What do you see the problem as and how do you suggest we overcome it?  I would like to know what you think you should do to rectify things?”

I didn’t hear anything from him and I found out later the reason was he had been putting together his helpful starting boating pages on his website.  I just couldn’t understand this…. Why were strangers so more important than his daughter?  Through reading what he posts, he posts of lot of helpful things for people who has just started boating, saying how he struggled at the beginning and he wants to help people.  I’ve struggled with this for a while, how can this guy be so helpful with these people, yet doesn’t give two hoots about me, but it suddenly dawned on me… what better people to impart your knowledge and wisdom on and who appreciate your wisdom, what other people make him look important, knowledgeable and a good all round helpful guy?

Recently though I’ve looked at his user name and thought, why can’t you die?  It is such a terrible and horrible thought, but I do…. I think to myself, you’re miserable, you believe that God’s given the world to the devil and can’t do anything to change your life at it’s all fate, you have no real friends only acquaintances, you are on your own most of the time and you believe that every human will betray you, why are you still here?  It’s shocking and awful but I just don’t understand it… If I truly believed those things I’d have been dead a long time ago.  And sometimes (and this is truly awful and shocking), I look at the computer screen and think “Just kill yourself!”

A shocked H&H xx

[Hopalong]

(((((((((H & H))))))))))))
You're spot on. Strangers, especially those younger and less experienced, are exactly what N's love. Wonderful supply source. You get a whole lot less from a smart daughter who has figured you out and won't put up with your selfish manipulations any more.

As to why you hate him sometimes and wish him dead? It does feel shocking, and I just went through a wave of that myself. But it passes. My T says it is necessary to own that feeling--it's just part of a whole range of feelings you have about him.

And there he is, behind the monitor's screen, bragging on and paying attention (just enough to get it back) to other people because, well, strangers are more interesting to him. They are more cooperative sources of supply.

It's much harder to move through your grief for someone who walks and breathes. But you are grieving for a father who never was. At some point, you'll be ready to let him go. Or maybe it will be more about you moving on.

Hugs,
Hops

[Portia]

Morning (((H&H))) and (((Hop)))

just a little from me

So I would be about 9/10/11 and she would be about 15/16/17.  There is another really yukky bit to this where he used to be proud if someone mistook his girlfriend for his daughter

Did I say non-physical incest before? There's a good phrase, brings it home for me. Doesn't f*ck with your body, f*cks with your mind instead. Much more difficult to nail down too, because there isn't any physical proof. Makes it difficult to admit it to yourself. Very easy to tell yourself you're imagining it. Until you compare their behaviour to the loving behaviour of good Dads (or moms).

If I truly believed those things I’d have been dead a long time ago.

Thing is, it's never been any different for him so he doesn't know any better. Doesn't know a better way to look at life. Thinks everyone else is living in the same way. Those who lie and cheat really believe that everyone else lies and cheats. We might think that that is sad for them - but that's us being compassionate. They don't think it's sad. They don't think like that.

take care both.

[Healing&Hopeful]

(((((((((Hoppy)))))))))) ((((((((((((Portia)))))))))))

Thanks for understanding and not judging.  Though I am probably judging myself more than other’s judging me.

Funny what you say about owning your feelings Hoppy.  I went to Yoga last night.  I’ve been going for about four weeks now with a friend, just go one night a week.  She said about owning your feelings too.  Yoga can bring out the more emotional side of you, and our course tudor said to let the feelings come up, not push them down.  That said however, bealing my eyes out in front of 7 strangers and my mate isn’t really my thing, but useful info for practicing yoga at home.  To be totally honest though, I don’t want to own this feeling, so maybe I’m not ready to own it?

Non-physical incest Portia…. That’s an interesting Phrase.  Would you tell me some things that happened to you that were non physical incest?

Thing is, it's never been any different for him so he doesn't know any better. Doesn't know a better way to look at life. Thinks everyone else is living in the same way. Those who lie and cheat really believe that everyone else lies and cheats. We might think that that is sad for them - but that's us being compassionate. They don't think it's sad. They don't think like that.
It’s true he doesn’t think the same way and possibly doesn’t know any better, however he doesn’t think everyone is like him… he knows he’s different but doesn’t know why, however why you tell him why “i.e. pointing out his blame mechanism”, he just emotionally shuts down.  You can almost see the shutters come down.

Take care

H&H xx

[Portia]

Hiya H&H
Would you tell me some things that happened to you that were non physical incest?
Sure! What an invite for me to blab on!

Adult age. Maybe 20. Meeting my step-brother (now ex step-brother) for the first time in many years. On leaving mum tells me to “give him a kiss then. It’s not incest you know!”. She’s partially obsessed with incest.

My mother giving me a science ***** book to read. It was a story about a family where food and defecating were taboo but sex was okay. The family would eat and defecate in private, secretly. But they’d all have incestuous sex together (mum, dad, daughter, son). Not an appropriate educational piece of literature for a child. How old was I? Don’t know. Puberty age I’d guess, pre 14.

Leaving Penthouse and Playboy magazines openly around the house when I was under 12. Mum’s doing.

Age 11. going shopping in town. Going home she announces to him: “the boys have started looking at Portia”. Had they? I didn’t notice. She didn’t mention it to me. Maybe that’s we moved house to the back of beyond. She didn’t like the perceived competition.

Age 13. Having an adult couple to stay where we lived. Mum talking about “I orgasm every time I really enjoy a good meal”. Grandiose make-believe shit but not good for my ears and said openly in front of me.

Age 13/14 going to a pub at Christmas, mum giving me her dress to wear. Step-dad coming up behind me at the bar and telling me the lights below the bar were making my dress see-through and to maybe go and change (or sit down I think). Mum never (there’s a child speaking, using the word ‘never’) did this herself. If there was anything vaguely sexually-oriented that had to be communicated to me, he did it. She wouldn’t.

Mum and stepfather used to walk around naked apparently. I have no memory of this but I’ve been told about age 4/5/6/7 (???) I decided my own nudity was “naughty” and covered myself up from then on. My mother says “we don’t know where you got the idea it was naughty”.

Age 8/9/10 playing with my sindy dolls. Playing a game where one doll sexually approached the other and the victim doll says ‘no, that’s naughty’. Mother has crept into the room and appears over my shoulder says with a cloying, sickly, icky, invasive, curious I might even say aroused (!) voice “what are you doing?”. Shuddddddder.

Oh and when I did discover boys, stepfather took it personally to make sure I didn’t get to see the boys I really liked. I was grounded and watched and monitored and my diaries read, apparently. I hated him. I left at 16 though. And went to live with my Dad…..aurghhhhhhh…I wish I’d been adopted I really do, by a family that wanted a kiddie! Hahaha. *sigh* it’s okay I am what I am and I’m here and that’s much, much better.

Okay that’s enough. I don’t remember way back. Children act out with toys, with other children and so on. Nothing was definite. I can’t say I was sexually abused. But my head was played with. Maybe not intentionally (they know not what they do) but I know it wasn’t right. I knew it wasn’t right then. Add this to enmeshment with mother, feeling entirely responsible for her, being set up against stepfather, living in that prison (!) and my head got screwed around.

Only now do I know that it wasn’t my fault.  I’m not a bad person.

Thanks for the invite and the space.

Hey why would I want to judge you H&H?
What we do/did is a direct result of what was done to us. Cause and effect.
What we do as adults is our responsibility but if we understand our behaviour, we stand a good chance of not repeating crap behaviour. We understand what can hurt others; we can empathise with the victim (us) and not associate ourselves with the abuser.

How a person behaves does not constitute a person. It's only particular behaviour. I won't judge a person based on one piece of behaviour, one action.

I don’t want to judge you. I want you to understand clearly what was done to you so that you can see your dad even more clearly. I just thought this - getting you to date his mates is almost incest-by-proxy or vicarious incest. The intention is there, but once removed. Sick. I’m sorry.


***** science FICTION book to read hahaha what kind of science book would that have been?

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya hon…. Blab on all you like…. It’s interesting to hear what your life was like and amazing to see how that kid grew into the lovely Portia we have before us.

When I read the science book bit I almost spat coffee all over the computer!!  I remember years ago, a woman I worked with used to be naked in front of her children because she wanted them to be at ease with their bodies and not have hang ups.  I felt dubious about it then.  Surely if an adult wants to hang out in the nuddy, there are nudist beaches for their convenience.  The fact that other’s who don’t want to see them in all natures glory, stay away.

With me, bio dad was the one who wanted me to talk to his mates etc etc, though a least I only had to see him one day every two weeks. 

“I orgasm every time I really enjoy a good meal” – wouldn’t this be a bit inconvenient… or maybe I just eat well!

Age 13/14 going to a pub at Christmas, mum giving me her dress to wear. Step-dad coming up behind me at the bar and telling me the lights below the bar were making my dress see-through and to maybe go and change (or sit down I think). Mum never (there’s a child speaking, using the word ‘never’) did this herself. If there was anything vaguely sexually-oriented that had to be communicated to me, he did it. She wouldn’t
I found this the most disturbing…. The whole lot, being made to wear your Mum’s dress and your stepdad’s very inappropriate comments.  It’s almost like a set up.  I feel angry just reading about this.

Mum was the same as your stepdad re: boys… I didn’t have a boyfriend at all until I was 17.  Not surprised really as I was wearing 40 year olds clothing.  The only time I received two valentines cards, Mum tore them up.  I also used to write a diary, which I was convinced Mum read…. She read everything else so I couldn’t imagine her not reading that… I used to be too scared to write what I really thought in my diary.

I used to wish I was adopted too…. And lucky for me I kind of was at 17, by my then boss.  She was so patient with me.

Take care

H&H xx

[Portia]

Hiya
I remember years ago, a woman I worked with used to be naked in front of her children because she wanted them to be at ease with their bodies and not have hang ups.  I felt dubious about it then.

Good for you. Your instincts are correct. What’s good for kids is recognising their needs. Their needs. Not enforcing what an adult thinks they should have. Kids need to have the freedom to know and love their own bodies. They DO NOT need to know their parents’ bodies (beyond breast-feeding and being touched and held with love). Being naked in front of kids is simply the parents doing what they want. It does not take care of what the kids want or need.

How are the coffee stains? 

Age 13/14 going to a pub at Christmas, mum giving me her dress to wear. Step-dad coming up behind me at the bar and telling me the lights below the bar were making my dress see-through and to maybe go and change (or sit down I think). Mum never (there’s a child speaking, using the word ‘never’) did this herself. If there was anything vaguely sexually-oriented that had to be communicated to me, he did it. She wouldn’t

I found this the most disturbing…. The whole lot, being made to wear your Mum’s dress and your stepdad’s very inappropriate comments.  It’s almost like a set up.  I feel angry just reading about this.

Yah!  It’s not the most disturbing thing up there to me though. It is to you. Can you see why it disturbs you and makes you angry? Being set up?

You are wonderful H&H. And you had it tough. May I...? (((Your boss when you were 17)))

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya Portia

PC wiped clean now….

What’s the most disturbing thing up there for you?

Yes from your post and the way you describe it I felt that your Mum had set you up with your stepdad…. Making you wear the dress and then getting him to tell you it was see through.  I can only imagine how embarrassed and humiliated you felt for something which was entirely not your fault.  And I felt angry that they would do that to a 13/14 year old. ((((((((((((((((((((little Portia)))))))))))))))))))))

One thing my Mum did do right though... she did marry my stepdad.  I hear so many stories about people’s stepdad’s and it always makes me feel lucky that mine is who he is.  Ok, he’s not perfect, but he firmly believes that if you marry someone with children, you take on their children as your own.  I find this amazing because I don’t feel many people can do that, let alone achieve it.

Take care…. (((((((((((((lots of hugs))))))))))))))))

H&H xx

[Portia]

Hiya H&H, I didn’t want to leave this one hanging. So, what disturbs me most? This one:

Age 8/9/10 playing with my sindy dolls. Playing a game where one doll sexually approached the other and the victim doll says ‘no, that’s naughty’.
Why? Because I don’t know why I did this. I don’t understand it and I want to understand. It may be very little, it may not be, but I don’t have the memories accessible. IF there are any memories. But I do think if my brain wants to let it out, it will. And I won’t force it as such. That’s my take!

I said: Can you see why it disturbs you and makes you angry? Being set up?

You said: Yes from your post and the way you describe it I felt that your Mum had set you up with your stepdad….

It might not have been that manipulated but I take your point. I don’t know. I was inappropriately dressed for my age. Like a honey pot maybe (for mom). Or maybe some weird projection stuff. BUT! Haha back to you.. .

Being set up isn’t the greatest crime to me. But H&H your Dad set you up lots. I think maybe that’s why it makes you angry – you can feel your own abuse reflected there. What do you think? Am I off base there?

Ok, he’s not perfect, but he firmly believes that if you marry someone with children, you take on their children as your own.  I find this amazing because I don’t feel many people can do that, let alone achieve it.

Did you watch the step-families programme? I didn’t. I have to limit what I observe about ‘normal’ loving families because it upsets me so (mostly saddens and makes me a little angry). I take it in small doses. Yeah, my step-father probably took me on as his own (at the same time deserting his own two kids, with awful effects on them). But he was no doubt treated terribly by his parents, so he repeated that on me. People do to their children what was done to them and say it’s okay (because they protect their parents in their minds). It’s never okay to hit kids because the adult wants to do it or thinks it’s for the kids’ own good. It’s only ever okay to hit (slap, say) kids out of FEAR for their safety. Like when they’ve stepped into the road infront of car and you pull them clear and slap their leg. That’s okay so long as you apologise to them after. I’m thinking of your friend here – muddled thinking imo at her end. Sorry that might be transgressing a PM message? Hope you know what I mean and hope it’s okay to say here.

Anyway, so how are you this Monday and how is your internal object of your Dad? Is he getting smaller in your head? I hope so. (((H&H)))

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya Portia

Don’t worry about transgressing from the PM’s… that’s fine.  And sorry if it’s confusing for anyone else reading this.  How are you today hon?

I can really relate to you not understanding and wanting to understand…. It may be that you were imitating something you’d seen or heard or it could be something more sinister.  And we just don’t know, do we?  This is how I feel with certain things to do with my bio dad… so I tend to think, trust your own judgement, trust what you believe, trust your instinct.  Although it’s not the right way to think, I do sometimes feel it’s best to leave things be, that sometimes things are best left undiscovered.  However that’s just what I believe and I’m sure lots of people have different views on this.

I think lots of people are inappropriately dressed for their age (that sounds like I’m judging the way everyone is dressed, I don’t… but I do look at teenage girls going on a night out and think, oh my, you must be so cold!)…. That wasn’t the issue for me, the issue for me was because I could imagine your stepdad saying that to 13/14 year old Portia and imagining how she would feel, how humiliating she would feel… and the sole reason was to do with her mum giving her the dress to wear, which was one of hers anyway, which makes me think why can’t you think enough of your daughter to buy her a new dress, and then have your stepdad say that.  This maybe some weird projection stuff, I don’t know… but I like to think that because I can imagine how little Portia would feel in this situation, it’s my empathy. 

I have watched some stepfamilies programmes, and I watched that how to divorce without screwing up your children, which I found quite interesting.  Although I didn’t grow up in a normal loving family environment, I don’t feel too bothered seeing it.  In fact I like it as it gives me hope. 

I don’t believe in smacking children at all… I feel there are alternatives, like Supernanny’s naughty step/chair and I don’t feel smacking achieves anything.  Though it is easy for me to say as I don’t have children, but I do feel very strongly about not smacking so I don’t think I would.  My friend didn’t say she believed in smacking, just that if she were in the same situation as her parents, at the same age, with the same financial concerns, she might have treated them to same…. Which when I spoke to her about it, she agreed that she would never treat her kids the same as she was treated.

How am I?  Well… not too bad.  Work is very busy, but my boss spoke to me about Friday’s conflict and said that I did everything right and did a good job which I’m pleased about.  Doesn’t help that I’ve been mulling it over all weekend, and going over everything I said, wrote etc but at least I know I didn’t make a balls up.  Phew!  Re: bio dad… I’ve been trying not to think about him as I feel so angry when I do at the moment.

Take care hon

H&H xx