openness/honesty in friendships

[pennyplant]

Yeah, we seem to be in spam mode lately.  It can be reported to moderator (bottom right had corner of message0.  They are usually deleted within a day or two.

PP

[Stormchild]

I just found out this morning that my boyfriend told me a lie when it would have been just as easy to tell me the truth.  It was over something as mundane as e-mail accounts.  I've sent him an e-mail explaining that if a boyfriend-girlfriend can't discuss little things like this openly and honestly, then what is our relationship based on?  I don't like being lied to about anything.  My Nmom lived her whole life telling one lie after another, destroying family ties in the process and has other family members convinced that I am nothing more than a mentally-retarded whore.  On the one hand, I know what I am experiencing is transference/countertransference and at the same time I am PISSED about being lied to, about anything, by my boyfriend.  It makes me wonder what else he has lied about?

Bones

Are there alcoholics or substance abusers in his FOO, Bones? Adult Children of Alcoholics often lie when it's just as easy to tell the truth - partly because they grew up having to lie about almost anything to avoid the alcoholic's hair trigger temper, and partly because non-recovering alcoholics lie about everything. all. the. time. ... if that's what he saw all around him growing up, it's what he'll do. Which is another reason why ACOAs lie...

[WRITE]

I don't know how this got pulled up again but yes I agree lying- especially pointless lying is common in both NPD and alcoholism.

One of my friends I believe has a secret alcohol problem, the only signs apart from the empty bottles are the pointless lies she keeps telling, sometimes she looks at me almost challengingly as though she wants me to pull her up but I haven't...to be honest I don't think I've seen her properly sober for a while.

The friend I originally wrote this thread about and I barely communicate now. Her husband came over for drinks and brought a present on Christmas Day, but she just never calls or pops in and I've decided to leave it at that. If a friendship is totally one-sided for any length of time I start to feel that old rejection/ not good enough thing. I have no idea what happened, but when we stopped helping financially I don't think she has called me since so maybe that says something....

Or maybe I'm just touchy.

Anyway, I have enough balanced friendships now; and I learned something new recently too- I can do less intense friendships and have them be satisfying on the level they are at, so long as I have a few people I can share myself totally with.

I often get that "deer in the headlights" look when I have to explain the obvious to him.


men who "spun stories" were compelling to me. Once.

Interesting how what once was cute...isn't any more!

[Stormchild]

The friend I originally wrote this thread about and I barely communicate now. ...  I have no idea what happened, but when we stopped helping financially I don't think she has called me since so maybe that says something....

Or maybe I'm just touchy.

Ah, you stopped paying the membership fee!

I'm sorry, Write. It's always a jolt to find out that someone basically thinks of you as their auxiliary wallet.

[WRITE]

It's always a jolt to find out that someone basically thinks of you as their auxiliary wallet.

Thanks S, it's okay, it was a salutory reminder for me- there's a big difference between helping someone in a crisis say once or twice or taking responsibility and getting overinvolved.

Lesson learned and understood!!!!

[debkor]

Hey all,
Haven't posted in awhile but I check in time to time.  This post really hit a nerve with me.
I have just ended a friendship with a best friend for 12 years.  She had been through all friendships she ever has had. I had remained the last true friend.  I accepted her for what she was and what she would give and knew it was not much.  She only would give when it came to her needs, her voice, and her problems.  Yet I still tried to find the good in her.  She used all her friends and then threw them away like they were dirt when they were no longer needed and used up she found new ones to suit her needs.  When the new ones were not good enough she tried to rekindle the old friendships again. 
She had some real problems in life that we all have but she drives on DRAMA and puts her children through it. She had used her own children in her drama.  She was mean, emotional abusive and uses her children by proxy to con when people are on to her con game. As a matter of fact the only emotion I have ever seen was for her.  She plays everyone mostly men with the poor single mom syndrome.  She claims she needs things for her children (which she does) but fails to tell them that she already used her money up on herself and then dips into to money that is given for her children.  She'll buy all kinds of products that is not necessary when you don't have a job or money for herself and let her kid go with a jacket that don't fit and the zipper is broken.  I have given her clothing for her daughter that she clearly needed and asked for.  Her daughter is at the age where she wants the trendy clothing and we had it to give from my daughter.  Her daughter was so excited her face was beaming.  The next day her mom walked in with the clothing on that we had given for her child. 
When they go to their dads and they refer to his g/f by name she corrects them by saying you mean ugly.  She's ugly isn't she?  I could go on and on and on.
Anyway, I had a really big blow out with her.  I couldn't take it anymore and ended my friendship with her.  I have nothing to say.  It is her life and she can conduct it in any manner she wishes but I do feel sorry for her kids but I have to let it go.  I really do not like her and I stopped making excuses for her behavior to myself.  She is no friend she never was she will never be one to anybody.  I do feel really bad about her children though and will miss them.  She has some great adorable kids who are being brainwashed. 
She is attacking me now through mutual friends.   
I have always been open and honest with her.  I truly believe that is what real friends do.
She was destroying her life and her kids.  I thought maybe it was because of her breakup with her husband she went a little off the deep end but I have now taken off my rose colored glasses and she her for what she is and don't like her at all.   I drew the final straw when she emotionally abused her children.   She is not someone I want in my life.
I hope she gets help for her kid's sake.
Sorry for the rant,
Deb

[Stormchild]

((((((((((Deb))))))))))

[WRITE]

When they go to their dads and they refer to his g/f by name she corrects them by saying you mean ugly.  She's ugly isn't she?

yes she is. Why can't people see this is child abuse, teaching children such ways which will give them a difficult life...

Not surprised you've had enough.

******

I have talked about sabotage before from people close to you, well you know I just lost weight, toned up a fair bit; I met a friend who hasn't seen me for a while, she didn't mention my appearance except to say at one point in the conversation 'are you 50 yet!'

Hmmm, coincidentally she's gained weight since I saw her....

******

It takes a level of maturity to put your own feeligns on side I think and be pleased for someone else, but I have often wondered for a people-pleaser like me if it isn't one of the resons it's taken me a long time to be really out there and successful- I still find it hard to handle people's mean comments or jealousy.

I remember when I was really sick one of my dotors commented on a friend who turned up out of the blue and was very kind, she said watch out for the people who want to be around you at your worst, I thought how negative...but she was right. I now have a small collection of friends who would be much happier to sit around moaning and commiserating than to rejoice in any successes with!

[Hopalong]

I've had a little break from a close friend I usually talk to every day, because she's been very involved in a legal matter that took all her energy and time. I missed her, but perhaps because she wasn't filling that space, I began to pay more attention to other people. That's been rewarding.

Now that she's free again and we're talking more often, I'm realizing that in some ways I was happy to not be quite as in touch. She has a negative, dramatic take on so many things in her life that I have to keep an eye on where I go with her. Sometimes I feel as though she "stirs for pain" because that is what feels most familiar to her.

I understand it. At the same time...I am enjoying being happy.

I am not planning anything, just observing some different feelings. I love her and care about her, but am thinking of letting our friendship take a new, perhaps less intense shape. (I am pretty sure she has some jealousy feelings, but I don't react much, and it seems tolerable.)

Just random thoughts.

Hops

[Hopalong]

Leah, I'm so sorry.
OW.

She didn't want to share it with you.
I don't know why, but it might have been about sharing attention,
not wanting to be friends publically because she wants to pull on you for attention and love in a private way but not be connected to a friend at a public event so she can do her performance....

Whatever it is, hon, you'd be happier doing something without her.

I'm so sorry she's a jerk but so impressed that YOU SPOTTED THE FLAGS.

Don't worry about not having reacted right away by retreating.
I think you will now.

And you know what? I don't think I would tell her that she hurt you.
I would not tell her one thing about your feelings. Ever. No. Not anything.

(In some weird way, I think that's what she wants. Perhaps not consciously, but...)

So I'd not mention the conference. And when SHE does, that's assuming you decide to spend a minute of your precious time talking to this person...I'd say nothing. Literally nothing.

Or somebody else may have a comeback that would be good...overall, though, I think complete disengagement from this person would be a fine, healthy choice.

Ick, I wanna smacker.

Hops

[Leah]

And you know what? I don't think I would tell her that she hurt you.
I would not tell her one thing about your feelings. Ever. No. Not anything.

(In some weird way, I think that's what she wants. Perhaps not consciously, but...)
 

Hops, you are so right, because when I have done just that ... she used it against me with "poor Leah, always sensitive"

So I'd not mention the conference. And when SHE does, that's assuming you decide to spend a minute of your precious time talking to this person...I'd say nothing. Literally nothing.
 

Hops, I will take your advice ..... because if I were to mention the conference in any way, she would most likely receive satisfaction for whatever her reason is for keeping me from the conference ...... and keeping me from meeting people, which is something that I desperately need, living on my own in a completely new area.

overall, though, I think complete disengagement from this person would be a fine, healthy choice.
 

Yes, you are right .......... though what folks will think hereabouts, she is a local, and it is a small area. 

My mistake was sharing with her, as a Christian women who is senior to myself, all about my NexH and Nmother.

Thank you Hops

Leah

[Dazed1]

Hi Leah,

I remember your original post about your new "friend".  I remember she gave you a warning and that gave me shivers.  I think the fact that she warned you shows that she knows there's something wrong with her, but she can't overcome it. 

Might she be an N with some self awareness of her defect, but she is still unable to overcome the defect?  Who cares, she's still an N and this latest conference thing proves it.

I agree with what Hops and CB said.  Please do not let her know that she has hurt you.  That will give her supply and she will take it to mean that you are vulnerable to her.

I also agree that this conference thing enables her to be "one up" on you.  She's reminding you that she's the queen bee, you are the drone and don't forget it.

Want to share with you an interesting article about how Ns are predators:  http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/npd-blog/2006/11/perfect-crime.html

Your "friend" sounds like a predator.  You asked "But why do that to me?" and I think this article kind of answers that questions:

"Why do they (Ns) target those who least deserve it? Because those who least deserve it are the easiest prey. They are the least suspecting, the most trusting, the most vulnerable. Every predator targets easy prey."

I understand you're new in town and it's really difficult to make friends with similar interests.  But, is there another group with whom you could become involved?  Sounds like this lady dominates the Church group and that it will be hard to change the group's dynamics of power as long as she's around.

dazed

[debkor]

Hey Leah,

I shared somewhere on another thread ........ of my new friend who had said to me during a telephone conversation that she was so happy to have made friends with me, and, I happily agreed, to which she replied "but I  have to warn you that I might hurt you"  "you must tell me when I hurt you


Boy do those words sound familiar.  My friend would say. 

So sometimes I say things I shouldn't say.
I can be really loud and rude
But
I don't mean anything
I don't mean harm
Sometimes I don't think.
Hey that's just me.

Now that wasn't a red flag that was a brick that should of hit me in my head and knocked some sense into me right at that moment.

Ah, Live and learn, some of us do it the hard way.

Love,
Deb

[Stormchild]

Wow. The author at operation doubles estimates about a 15% prevalence of malignant narcissism in the population. That's the EXTREME kind of narcissism... and what really unnerves me is that when I do my own lifetime N roll call, she's exactly right...

Say another 15 - 20% are Ns who aren't quite sociopaths... that makes 30-35% of the population N to some extent... and that just about fits. One out of every three.

>shudder<  

[Dazed1]

Stormy,

Yeah; re: the #s, the percentage of Ns (of all varieties), I also shudder.  I also counted the Ns I've encountered and THERE'S A LOT OF THEM!!!  Dang, it's depressing.

It's also a bummer that when one meets someone (in any context: social, business), one must be cautious and "read"  the other person, feel the 'nigglings' (thanks CB) and act on (not make light of or downplay) red flags. 

Bottom line: We cannot be passive; sussing out whether someone is an N is a proactive activity.  Upon discovery of an N, we must immediately remove ourselves from the N's firing range BEFORE the N shoots at us.

Nowadays, if I see red flags, I will not make an excuse for it or tell myself I'm over reacting.  I'm just going to remove myself from the N's orbit and absence myself from the N's life.

Leah,
I think the the operationsdouble website (http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/npd-blog/index.html) has some excellent info.

Leah, I think that because we were raised by Ns, we are more vulnerable than those who were raised by healthy people. Additionally, because we were raised by Ns, we are more vulnerable to Ns and Ns can sense that.  Based on what I've read, this is why children of Ns often marry Ns.  Also, Ns can sense our vulberability and that's why they are drawn to us- ie: that predator article; ie: your Church Group "friend", remember, as you said SHE chose you.  Additionally, because we were raised by Ns, we are familiar with the abuse inflicted on us by an N and so, to us, the abuse feels "normal".

Therefore, we just have to be very aware of people we encounter and scrutinize their Nness. When the Red Flag waves, RUN!!!

"I will have to join another Church group, but, am a little bit worried how that will look."   Leah, who cares how it looks?  I bet that many people in both of the Church groups KNOW she's an N.  They may not think of her as an N, but, I bet they know she's bossy, bullies, lies, one-ups people, etc.  And, if they don't know that, then they're enablers in denial and you don't want to be with them because they are not healthy. 

Now that we know about Ns, we don't want to be with Ns, enablers, people in denial or anyone who is mentally/emotionally unhealthy.  Now that we know about Ns, we don't want to be with anyone (friends, lovers, boss, co-workers) who abuses us.  If we're in a situation where we can't avoid them (work), we ignore them, don't give them supply and don't let them abuse us.    We don't let the predator target us.

Yes, it takes time to find healthy people, but, they are out there (so I hear!) and we gotta find 'em.

dazed