Is it ok to say: "I hate you."?

[Certain Hope]

Dear Sally,

Thank you so much for your kind and caring response to me.

I really think that we all miss alot here on the board... and it's also so very easy to misunderstand and to be misunderstood.
As you've said, one thing I've learned here, also, is the importance of validating peoples' pain. I've found that the trouble arises when you don't validate the "right" person's pain, because you have more information about a situation than many of the other people observing.

My own personal approach now is to validate everyone's pain and yet remain detached from the "battle" (if there is one) and its outcome.
That way, there is no need to choose sides... only give hugs to the one who is wounded.
One exception, to some degree, is in those instances when I've observed and been directly effected by an ongoing pattern.
But from my experience, some folks don't want what I can offer... hugs, empathy, and words of comfort. It's when they want a battle companion... someone with whom to join forces and attack the perceived enemy... that I must withdraw.
What I know is that I cannot fight anyone else's battles... and for some, the battle never ends.

(((((((Sally))))))) I do understand the triggering. This stuff used to tear me apart, just to even observe... and I didn't even know why I was so terrified. Not being able to identify all those feelings just made me want to run... and I often did.
But you are doing so well!
All that you've written here about the way you want to conduct yourself during conflict... it's so admirable, Sally; and, to me, that's just exactly what you've done here, as you've talked through your thoughts and feelings and struggles with us. I am so glad you didn't hold it all in... I don't want anyone to go through that, like I did, because it's so terribly destructive. This is a safe place to be expressive in that way... and it's by practicing as we do here that we can each learn to fine tune our communication skills.
I share your goal. I know that I have a long way to go toward achieving it, but I'm committed to the work. I don't have it in me to slam someone outright, but if I let myself get into my head and write from atop my crumbled old ivory tower, I can surely allow my words to release some improper sentiments.
I've practiced enough now that I can tell whether I'm writing from my head or from my heart...  and just hush when it's all from the mind.
Okay, take an extra bp med, pray, and hush... but that's easing up, too.

More hugs, Sally... I am so glad you're here.

With love,
Carolyn

[lighter]

Peace.... I don't think a nudge is mocking, in any shape.

A mock is a mock... and that's about that.

Intentions..... are very important.

I'm not saying I've never lost patience.... I'm not saying my nudges are always sweetness and light... because they aren't.

Speaking of being nudged out of our comfort levels..... I posted about the movie....

THE GAME a bit back. 

That's an EXTREME nudge and the poor protagonist, Michael Douglas, was wholey unhappy with the course of events.... leading up to his life changing epiphany.   I'm a firm believer that we don't learn nestled in our comfort levels.... not that I'm the Judge and Jury.... not that I decide who deserves a nudge and who doesn't. 

[finding peace]

Hey Lighter,

I am glad about the mocking part - didn't want you to think I was saying that you were mocking when I used the term nudge. 

I couldn't agree more with everything you said – especially, especially the part about intentions being critical.  And you are right - no one is perfect.

The Game is a great movie - remember sitting on the edge of my seat with that one, it is a great example (yes extreme) of nudging past the comfort level.

Happy Halloween

Peace 

[Sela]

Hello everyone,

Hahahahahaha Carolyn!  Just shows me how mixed up I get.  I thought you meant that I was doing the daring or something.  No need to apologize though.  It did feel as you described so you weren't maybe as far off in your thinking/feeling as you might now think.  Either way I don't think it much matters.  No one can say everything perfectly so don't be spanking yourself.  Look at me.    I get foot in mouth disease on a regular basis.  I trust your intentions and they matter.

Thanks for explaining what you meant.  Sometimes it's so easy for me to misunderstand. 

Sally, not to worry.  I know stuff triggers us all at times.  And it would be hard for you to see much at all without having been around here for awhile (when it comes to the dynamics of board relationships between myself and Stormy, I mean).  I think another thing that upset me too was that I also liked this thread and it felt like an attempt to defile it.  It was a good thread with many insights and heartfelt interaction and then......

like a stink bomb went off.......phew!!!!  Like arson!

I’m trying to learn how to handle a person that I don’t like without smashing them to bits, to be able to express my dislike, my disgust (so I don’t feel voiceless and I don’t avoid the conflict), while still feeling good about myself, that I left that distasteful person intact and didn’t shame them or wound them further.

I can only restate that I tried before now to disengage as peacefully as possible.  I felt like an attempt was being made to shame and wound me and my reaction may not be typical or even likable but it was healthy.
That's my opinion, mind you.

If the person still persists or does not understand that I want to disengage, I will have no contact with them.

But how do you have no contact with someone who drags up your old post and assigns nasty feelings to you and makes you out to be dishonest with yourself (and insinuating.....more??) and who then goes on to tell you what passages in the bible to read to heal yourself or teach yourself or whatevertheheck?

How many times do you ignor such junk?

Where is your breaking point?

You saw mine yesterday.  I'm not interested in ignoring that kind of behaviour since ignoring it is a way of enabling it.  By ignoring it, I would have felt silenced.  My choice to yell and complain and ask for help makes me feel like I did the right thing when I needed to.  I'm sorry if you think it was the wrong choice.  I hope you never have to make it.

This is something I’m working on and I’m trying to cultivate wisdom, insight, gentleness & healing to achieve it. 

I’m wondering:  Does anyone else have this goal?

I betcha lot's of us do.  I do.  But who has the right to come along and start analyzing the job I'm doing?  Should I trust people I've had major conflict with to do that job for me?   What if I don't want to hear that person's take on me?  What if I think they'd be better of working on themselves and leaving me alone?

I understand that you had no way of knowing any of this so please hear that I am not berrating you.  I'm trying to explain how it was for me and to let you know that you and I may not be all that different.

I don't believe I made a mistake or behaved badly or did anything wrong.  If someone comes at me with a knife, I'm not going to stop and ask them nicely to put it down.  I'm going to use whatever skill I have to defend myself.  The same goes for verbal attacks.  I might ask nicely a couple of times (which I have done previously) but after that....the person gets to see my bad side....big time.

And we all have one.

If that doesn't work, then I would certainly ask Dr. G to intervene as I doubt very much he would condone the continued cyber-stalking or whateverit'scalled.

Thankyou for coming back and talking about your feelings.  I've felt the exact same thing sometimes when I watched and didn't really know the details.  I just wish we could all get along but I do understand when people feel the necessity to put up a boundary when that isn't happening.

I hope this helps.


Sela

[Stormchild]

Hi all

It's been interesting - not to mention ironic, given the thread title - to see the depths of hatred expressed here by Hops and Sela [and Bean] following my last post.

If my point about hatred festering and coming out sideways when denied needed any proving, that, at least, has been accomplished.

I recommend reading this thread

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=2673.0

to see why Sela has a chip on her shoulder where I am concerned. The thread referenced in it was, unfortunately, deleted by Jac when she left the board before returning as authentic.

I also recommend reading this one

http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=3302.msg54555#msg54555

for those who want to know why Hops is holding a grudge.

Read them, while they're still available to read; then decide who the bully is.

[Stormchild]

By the way, my initial post was IN SUPPORT OF Sela's right to her own feelings, and her daughter's right to HER own feelings as well, but not in support of anyone attempting to stifle and conceal one's own feelings of hate.

That's just unhealthy. Such feelings should be dealt with.

We have excellent examples now, in this thread, of what happens when people refuse to deal with them.

"Stink bomb"? "Defiled"?

Q.E.D.

[Quivering Guest]

Call me a coward but I just don't want to post this as myself for fear of being ridiculed here - or at worst attacked.

Somethings been bothering me all day and I want to put this out there and damn the consequences, although obviously I'm not willing to do so as "myself". I just want to make a small suggestion and take it or leave it -- I think since Authentic is no longer here and obviously left with some issues of her own that it would be best to just leave her to work on her own issues and not attack her behind her back. 

She has no opportunity to defend herself at present and I for one enjoyed her voice and even agreed with a lot of what she said - yes, maybe not everything but I don't wish her ill or think she's a bad person at all and I hate to see her put in that box,
slapped with the label and shelved.  Good riddens!  We all say and do things when we're triggered and why should she be any different?

I just think a little grace and forgiveness is warranted here (and I'm quivering again) a little letting go.  She's gone and that's that.  If there was an opportunity for healing whilst she was here I could see the worth in bringing her up but she isn't and it doesn't seem likely that she'll be back so why not lets leave her alone, huh?

I don't think that's too much to ask. 

Also as for this present conflict I think the people involved are speaking for themselves quite nicely so I won't butt in.  Thanks for listening.

[isittoolate]

Is it ok?
when you are a kid ...yes!....

.....as an adult there are other words other than 'hate'!

[lighter]

Carolyn and Lighter,

What I love about your dialogue is that you are so different, yet it's so visible how you are taking steps toward accepting and understanding each other. You'll never have remotely similar voices or styles, and yet, you are curious and open enough, and have good-will...so that it looks like a respectful and safe communication. It's been engaging and illuminating to read, thank you!

Carolyn, in my mind you are characterized by caring carefulness. It feels like part great sensitivity, but also great commitment to serious and loving ideals. You really want harmony and understanding, and you are sensitive not only to the thought of being misunderstood, but just as much to the notion of you misunderstanding. It feels to me like those motives mostly balance each other in you, so you can keep engaging with most folks. Very lovely to see. (I bet your H is besotted with you.)

Lighter, you are sharp as a clamshell edge. Your humour lays me out sometimes, and never offends me. I think that's because I can feel the difference between a brief moment of snark (you described that in a way that helped me make peace with my own snark-bursts) and a slicing. Other times, I am delighted by your graphic wit, the way you play with words and space, so I feel as though you're sketching your communication as well as writing it. Lastly, the burlesque side of me just loves your inner goof. You may, in fact, be the reincarnation of a French bulldog.

Botha youse, I could of course be way off base (please disregard anything clueless), but I love the chance to describe people to themselves in a positive way. That has been offered so generously to me here so many times. Time for some payback!

love
Hops

WHAT FUN, lol!

Hops..... I know nothing about little foreign bulldogs but..... that was surely a compliment and I really enjoyed reading it, lol!

I like thinking of myself as French, in any case.... lol; )

[lighter]

Peace.... YES! YES! YES!

Happy Halloween!

I JUST LOVE HALLOWEEN!

[Certain Hope]

Call me a coward but I just don't want to post this as myself for fear of being ridiculed here - or at worst attacked.

Somethings been bothering me all day and I want to put this out there and damn the consequences, although obviously I'm not willing to do so as "myself". I just want to make a small suggestion and take it or leave it -- I think since Authentic is no longer here and obviously left with some issues of her own that it would be best to just leave her to work on her own issues and not attack her behind her back. 

She has no opportunity to defend herself at present and I for one enjoyed her voice and even agreed with a lot of what she said - yes, maybe not everything but I don't wish her ill or think she's a bad person at all and I hate to see her put in that box,
slapped with the label and shelved.  Good riddens!  We all say and do things when we're triggered and why should she be any different?

I just think a little grace and forgiveness is warranted here (and I'm quivering again) a little letting go.  She's gone and that's that.  If there was an opportunity for healing whilst she was here I could see the worth in bringing her up but she isn't and it doesn't seem likely that she'll be back so why not lets leave her alone, huh?

I don't think that's too much to ask. 

Also as for this present conflict I think the people involved are speaking for themselves quite nicely so I won't butt in.  Thanks for listening.

Dear Quivering,

I have not ridiculed or attacked JacMac/all those other names she uses.
I have not analyzed, critiqued, belittled, or demeaned her in any way.
Those are the things she has done to me, Quivering... to me and to many, many others here in this group, repeatedly, time and time again, over a period of many years.

Here I have made two direct statements about JacMac's behavior toward me:

My own personal experience with this is very fresh in my mind - and I did call to Dr. Grossman for help - because I saw no other alternative when JacMac/ Guest101/ Authentic/BC321/etc. would not leave me alone following her last departure from this board.
Remaining silent and ignoring her abuse never changed a thing.

and

I am saying that there is only one person on this board who has refused to leave me alone... so far...
 and that is JacMac, who has also used the names guest101, authentic, 321BC (please excuse me, I mistyped it the first time), ABC, RealityCheck, and others.

I'm stating this here as a dose of preventative medicine, because of the repeating nature of the cycle in which this poster engages.
Anticipating the "next time "- and there always seems to be one - creates a level of dread in me of which I am ashamed.
So in the event of another next time, I am stating my intent to not sit quietly and watch my bp rise again, unaddressed.
At such a time, I will speak up immediately and reference this cyclical pattern without shame, and without fear that I'll have to explain my feelings to those who perhaps weren't around to witness the first 16 months of my struggle.

That second quote explains why I am making these statements now.

It is not easy, pleasant, or comfortable for me to do so - especially under my own name here, as myself, fully accountable for my own words. It is very difficult for me to write these things.

I understand your choosing a guest name, Quivering, and I understand who you are, too.
It's okay... I'm not upset with you.... I just think it's sad.
I've known how you feel about this for quite some time.
In fact, I was in your shoes last year for awhile and so I know how that feels... I agreed with alot of what she said here at that time...
but then I saw the rest of the story, and the picture became complete. Things are not always as they seem... that is a fact.

I do not wish her ill and I do not wish you ill, Guest. I just think it's sad... and I'm sorry you don't like me, or value me... but I can't convince you that things are as I see them, nor can I pretend like it's okay for someone to treat me like JacMac has and just ignore it.
It's more important to me to live in the truth than it is for me to have people think I'm "nice"... and really, that's what it comes down to.
That is not selfish of me.

So I'm posting to you now in the hopes that you will read that last quote of mine up there again and perhaps gain a better understanding. This is not sour grapes on my part. I do not feel hatred for this person who has bullied and harassed me. What I feel is relief that she is not allowed to continue this behavior here. It was her own consistently poor choices in behavior which led to this consequence, Quivering.
If I do not make a deliberate choice re: my own behavior here and now, I will suffer consequences as well, so this is the choice I have made.

I don't think you realize how very many times this same scenario has occurred here. You couldn't know unless you'd been there... and for your sake, I'm glad you didn't have to experience it.
I hope that maybe you can relate this to how you felt when your mother would contact you and proceed to tear you to shreds, fiber by fiber, picking you apart and demanding that you love her anyway, that you meld with her in every way and give her your absolute devotion, and never ever complain about the way she was treating you, lest you begin the entire cycle of scorching abuse all over again.

Maybe you can have a bit of empathy for me, Quivering.
I could not even speak of this until recently, until my blood pressure was 210/110 and I felt my heart would explode.
Even now with meds for it, it skyrocketed yesterday as I wrote those two short posts about this on this thread.
Today it's better, even as I type... and I know why. It's better because my mind and heart are in unison finally.
Now I know that I will not allow this to happen to me again.

I know that because I dared to say this here...
that this is not an attack any more than it was an attack on my Npd-ex when I told the sheriff's dept that he violated the restraining order and broke into my home.

This is my announcement of a protective order in place around my soul,
because JacMac or whatever she chooses to call herself next time will not impact my well-being again,
because if she returns here, I will speak immediately and quote this very post.
Wouldn't we all like to play a tape recorded "leave me alone" to the abusers in our families, rather than ever have to deal with them again and endure that shredding?
Well, this is my tape recorded message.

Thanks for reading. I really hope you'll understand.

Sincerely,
Carolyn

[lighter]

Hope, lol..... whoever Quivering is..... they did appear to be saying someone was attacking Jac and putting her in a box... which is unfortunate bc Jac's own behavior  sort'a did that on it's own.

No need to try and pass the buck and make her behavior someone else's responsibility. 

Hope needed to talk about her feeling of being harassed, over a period of time, by Jac and that seems perfectly reasonable to me, considering it was the reason Jac was banned from the board. 

I don't think Dr. G wanted to hear anyone defending that kind of behavior but that shouldn't silence Hope from talking about her feelings in the matter. 

Just my opinion.

And oh ya...

Quivering....




::whispering::




coward, lol; )





Now.... here comes the disclaimer for my attempt at humor.

Quiver may or may not be able to laugh at anything today.... I have no idea.

She also may just plain ol not appreciate MY sense of humor.  ::shrug::

So.... I'll just say that she lightheartedly asked to be called a coward in her post......

I obliged,

 with the same lighthearted humor in mind...

not to belittle, attack, turn over a new evil leaf

or mock anyone.

[Quivering Guest]

Carolyn, thanks for taking the time to reach out.  I'm sorry for the pain you suffered.

I feel though that you're expressing your opinion and also expressing it for others and I don't share that opinion at all. 
I don't say that to invalidate; I hear your pain and I'm sorry for it.  Authentic also experienced pain here, her fair share.
She was the victim of lots of attacks as well.  When I'm pushed I also push back.  I don't believe you or anyone else here it different.

I was not obviously just speaking to you but you felt that I was and that is important.
I understand all that you are saying and I thank you for your honesty and candor.

I just hope that God in his goodness will allow you (and all others who post here) to be able to see that all that you describe about yourself, I'm sure Authentic felt as well.  I hope that God in his goodness will allow you (and all others who post here) to see her as a human being, also, full of flaws and sinful -- like you are, so that you can let go of the past and allow yourself to move past that place.

Authentic had problems with this board from long ago, she came back here and tried to make amends but as I see it only a few people were able to accept the new her -- some even cling to her old name, not giving her another chance.  I don't think that's good for Authentic or the people who can't let it go.  In fact, when Authentic was here in the past, she was never a bad person and I think you, Carolyn, even formed some kind of close friendship with her that obviously went bad.

I think it is all well and good to practice sticking up for ourselves, in fact ironically this is what Authentic herself was working on when last here but few gave her room to do that and few could interact with her based on who she had grown to be and only would look at her as who they felt she once was, which in my mind was not an accurate whole picture.

Authentic, like all of us here, had and has good and bad qualities.  Sorry, Authentic for speaking of you while you're not here but I feel this is necessary.  Authentic you are a good person, a normal person with faults.  I wish you'd come back but if I were you I wouldn't ever either.  I'd be too uncomfortable and afraid.

I hope and pray that in the future the board won't be so unforgiving and that now, even though I cowardly do not use my own name, that I have brought the matter forward Authentic, as she asked to be called, can have rest here in this place and need no longer be the focus of so much dislike.  I think we can all grow and learn if we sincerely just let her go.

Thank you again for allowing me to express my opinion.  I see that even though I have, some people have such a need to continue that they cannot sad.  It is just an expression of themselves and not Authentic at all. 

[Sela]

to see the depths of hatred expressed here by Hops and Sela [and Bean] following my last post.

Stop assigning feelings to people.  Anger (on edit....mostly my feeling, at this point) expressed does not add up to hate.  It's as if you can't tell the difference and have no respect for anyone's rights but your own.

By the way, my initial post was IN SUPPORT OF Sela's right to her own feelings

I did not feel supported.  It's as if you cannot hear or see or feel anything but what directly comes from your own head.
Intention counts but you're not stating that it was your intention.  You're stating that it is factual and it isn't (it was in support...no it didn't come across that way....it didn't feel that way to me......your words are hurtful and you don't even seem to see it or take repsonsibility for it or consider fixing it).  Your words didn't feel supportive to me or to some other people, when they inserted their names in the place of mine (if they knew the history between us).

Just leave me alone!  Stop talking about me, about my posts, about my feelings, dragging up the same old threads as some kind of proof of anything and stop talking about anything to do with me.  Go ahead and believe that I am the bad person you want to believe I am.  I don't care.  Just get off my butt!!

Stop analyzing and commenting on anything I have to say and go work on yourself!!

Pretend I don't exist.  That suits me fine.

Sela

[Certain Hope]

Guest Quivering,

Just a few things here...

You wrote:
  "I feel though that you're expressing your opinion and also expressing it for others and I don't share that opinion at all."

You feel that I am expressing my opinion for others?
I don't understand that statement and it doesn't make sense to me.
I have clearly stated that what I'm expressing here has been my own, repeated experience on this board.
It is not my opinion, it is documented fact.

Whether or not others choose to post in validation of that experience or to speak of their own individual experiences is their choice.
I would never ask anyone else to do that for my sake.
I've never asked anyone else to agree with me publicly that what I've experienced is abuse, until I called out to Dr. G in desperation.
I do not ask you to agree with me in any way... because I realize that there is no way that you could share my opinion, since you have not shared my experience. In fact, you were not present on the board during much of it.

Really, what I'm seeing here is that your disagreement is with Dr. Grossman's opinion.

He labeled one posted pm which was sent to me by JacMac (under one of her numerous aliases) "harassment".
Fortunately for me, Dr. Grossman's view overrules your opinion.

You wrote:
"I was not obviously just speaking to you but you felt that I was and that is important."

This statement I find very concerning, Guest Quivering.
You were not obviously just speaking to me?
Since I am the one on this thread who is issuing my boundaries vis the poster known from the inception of this board as JacMac,
I think it was pretty obvious to whom you were speaking.

I felt that you were speaking to me and "that is important"?
I don't understand that statement.
I didn't "feel" that you were speaking to me.
 I thought that you were speaking to me, albeit quiveringly, since I am the one who raised the topic of JacMac.

I don't like the feeling I get now though... as though you're trying to imply that I somehow ltsome other motivation and so I made this giant leap of presuming that you were posting to me?
Imo, it was only natural for me to think that you were posting to me, Guest.

As for the rest of your post, I have numerous feelings, and none of them pleasant.

Mostly I feel that you are attempting to re-write a history with which you are unfamiliar, because you were not present to witness the entire pattern and you've only been willing to hear one side of it.
That gives you a skewed perspective, imo, and so I feel very uncomfortable and... cynical... about your speaking as an authority on this person whom you barely know.

Also, I hear you comparing my pain with the pain of the person known to this board as JacMac, as though the fact that we're both hurting somehow levels the entire field.
The problem with your reasoning there, as I see it, is this: 
I have not lashed out at her. I have not made vile accusations and insinuations, berating and belittling her or anyone else.
I have not refused to stop mistreating others, directly and indirectly, and just move on with my own healing.
The fact is, Guest Q, I left the person I know as JacMac entirely alone during her most recent stint on this board.
I did absolutely nothing to bar her progress toward healing.
She is the one who chose to, yet again, lash out at me. I will not allow that to occur again.

What your comparison tells me about you is that, although you claim to validate and hear my pain, you really don't think my pain is all that significant.
It's as though... I should buck up and hush, but it's okay for the person you're advocating to lash out at will, repeatedly, at anyone in her path.
That is wrong, Guest Q. Very, very wrong.

It is also wrong of you, imo, to try to link my legitimate claims of pain and  harassment to the manner in which anyone else on this board behaved or continues to behave. I am not those other people. You label these peoples' behaviors "attacks"; that is your opinion, not mine, and not necessarily the opinion of anyone else here on this board.

So now, because of what I'm feeling about your last post, I've decided that I'm drawing a boundary with you, as well, Guest Quivering... in both your guest mode and under your regular screen name.
That boundary is = I will not share my feelings with you any further, or expose myself to your opinions any further... not because we disagree on this issue, but because I both hear and feel you invalidating my experience and trying to guilt and shame me into a return to voicelessness. I won't post to you, or regurgitate any of this, or remind you of it, or attack your character before others, or imply that you're a bad person. I simply won't engage you in discussion.

Again, I remind you that it seems to me your real disagreement here is with the moderator of this board, and not with me.
I will not speak of this again, unless it becomes necessary because of another appearance of the person who has repeatedly harassed me. That person, as I know her, is JacMac.
Again, at that time, I will quote my "tape recorded message" as posted here and repeat my personal request to be left alone by her.

Sincerely,
Carolyn