How do you disassociate yourself from feeling like a failure?

[seasons]

Kheng,

Great post. I agree with Pennplant, it is a great place to start.

Maybe we can forgive ourselves the way we might forgive a stranger or a friend or someone we love who has made a mistake or failed to live up to expectations.  Maybe forgiveness can be a starting point.

Pennyplant

seasons

[Sela]

Hey ((((((((Hops))))))))))

You're so very welcome.

Glad you're smiling Kheng!  And that you are considering ideas and other perspectives.  Hope it all helps.

  Sela

[ANewSheriff]

One thing is for sure - if we all walked around "unzipped" we would look much more alike than not.  I wonder if you are comparing your insides to other people's outsides.  People tend look very "together" on the outside.  We do not run around (for the most part) displaying all of our dirty laundry and our fears and phobias for the world to see.  I am not necessarily saying this is an unhealthy thing.  It just is what it is.  More often than not, though, we gauge our okayness with how we perceive ourselves in contrast to how okay we perceive others to be. 

Well...  This can be dangerous if you do not have at least some people in your life who tell the truth (you know, people that tell you what is really going on in their lives - expose at least some of their warts).  We all have them.   Make an effort to find some people who speak the truth and return the favor by speaking it yourself. 

One thing I do know is that you have probably been conditioned to doubt yourself if you have had intimate relationships with a narcissistic personality.  One thing I have to remind myself about is that I am playing 8-tracks when I should be listening to CD's.  These are old and outdated tapes.  The messages are no longer valid.  Resist the urge to listen to them.     

[pennyplant]

Pennyplant,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by what you said, "the consistency of "me" is permeated with those messages."  Maybe I'm just too lazy to read more thoroughly, that is why I don't see the connection.   I don't think I am naturally shy.  I think the anxiety I have often makes me have a quiet personality.

Kheng, I just meant that I have internalized the negative ideas and thoughts.  They have become a part of my nature.  It is easy enough to say positive things to myself.  It is hard to incorporate the positive ideas and believe them.  I have to change myself, not only my thought patterns.

I was just guessing about the shy part.  I know someone who seems shy but really he is quiet because he worries that he will say something and be judged as weird or odd or not smart.  I can understand where anxiety would also do the same thing to someone.  Instead of guessing what you are like, Kheng, I'll just read your posts as they come along and see what you're like.  I didn't mean to put something on you that doesn't fit.

One thing is for sure - if we all walked around "unzipped" we would look much more alike than not. I wonder if you are comparing your insides to other people's outsides. People tend look very "together" on the outside. We do not run around (for the most part) displaying all of our dirty laundry and our fears and phobias for the world to see. I am not necessarily saying this is an unhealthy thing. It just is what it is. More often than not, though, we gauge our okayness with how we perceive ourselves in contrast to how okay we perceive others to be.

Well... This can be dangerous if you do not have at least some people in your life who tell the truth (you know, people that tell you what is really going on in their lives - expose at least some of their warts). We all have them. Make an effort to find some people who speak the truth and return the favor by speaking it yourself.

One thing I do know is that you have probably been conditioned to doubt yourself if you have had intimate relationships with a narcissistic personality. One thing I have to remind myself about is that I am playing 8-tracks when I should be listening to CD's. These are old and outdated tapes. The messages are no longer valid. Resist the urge to listen to them.

This is a great way to put it, Sheriff.  Pretty vivid, too!!!

It is quite a trick, this unzipping.  It requires trust on both sides.  If you share too much, it scares people off.  They probably worry about the same thing.  I tend to be a truthful person.  Sometimes people can't take it.  But sometimes people realize what a gift it is to know that someone is usually honest.  I know I would rather have the truth from others.  I like the warts!!!

Pennyplant

[moonlight52]

Hi Anewsheriff and all
Here I am at 52 coming to this understanding about N-Dad  !Better late than never.I am now looking bravely at N-spots .I have been told I have
a bad habit of interrupting people.I feel  like how could I not have known that I do this some times? I am looking at this behavior
and I am looking at it as a bad habit I picked up and now realize I can quit doing it.I do feel bad  about doing it also other n spots like trying to get approval .This stuff pretty basic huh! I am connecting the dots   THANKS!
Moonlight

[moonlight52]

HI ALL I have just looked at the post above good example of interrupting opps I will work on it some more.
The idea of being unzipped sure would be uniting would it not? I Have seen a lot of people in my life that "look together"
that I knew were not.I do not know if being a "hippie" has anything to do with it but I have seen all kinds of covers
and you sure can not judge a book by its cover.I think thats why telling yourself the truth no matter how hard is so important to do.
And taking the steps to heal yourself  it is harder than I thought but thats OK.Thats what growing and learning is all about.
Hugs
Moonlight

[Hopalong]

Hey Moon,
I don't think you were interrupting...the wonderful thing about the forum machine is that it lets us take turns.
And your awareness about interrupting?
ME TOO.

I'm better, but there have been so many times when my anxieties drove me to drive right over other people's attempts to talk.

I have been a "Voice hog" in the past. Much better in recent years, partly because I've channeled that urge into writing, poetry, some structured group things where time is consciously shared. I am much more at peace with myself since I've learned to listen.

Anyway, I think this is on-topic because the kind of anxiety that triggers interruptyitis is a social anxiety for some follks, I believe, and that can be about fear of failure.

Eh?
(((Moon)))

Hops

[pennyplant]

I am now looking bravely at N-spots .I have been told I have
a bad habit of interrupting people.I feel  like how could I not have known that I do this some times? I am looking at this behavior
and I am looking at it as a bad habit I picked up and now realize I can quit doing it.I do feel bad  about doing it also other n spots like trying to get approval .This stuff pretty basic huh! I am connecting the dots   THANKS!
Moonlight

Hey, Moonlight!  I'm an interrupter too!  It is worth working on so that we can be fair to other people.  I always say I want the back and forth, 50/50 relationships, so I better put my money where my mouth is.  And maybe it is basic, but I skipped right over a lot of basic stuff because of being distracted by the more pressing needs, REQUIREMENTS, of living with the self-absorbed and unloving.  So, better late than never.   

PP

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi All

Sorry, I haven't read everyone's replies so I apologise if I'm repeating someone.

My answer would be believe in yourself.... try and trust in the knowledge that your not always wrong, and that you made the best decision at the time, even if it turns out to be a pants decision later on.

Love H&H xx

[yuri]

Hi Kheng
I also have this ongoing struggle. It comes from infantile trauma in my case (mother being bipolar I was in an orphanage from month 3 to 6. Month 3 is the month when infants begin to smile at those close to them. (She was my nanny, a Gipsy/Roma brownskinned woman in that place where I had a constant diarhhea and medication and enemas, considered today abusive.) Month 6 is the period when the infant begins to fear strangers. The first stranger for me was my mom. (Other wise my mom was okay for 12 years after that.My dad divorced "us" at 6 but theygot alienated when I was 3 already.My dad came from a gentry family my mother was Jewish - he word means Echoer of the Be-er, be-er being the name of the Biblical "Higher Powwr" (I dont use the word "god" since it is not self-evident as the original Be-er or Creator. But it was Communism (a kind of state capitalism with a strict police force infiltrating every house) so they never mentioned my gentry and Jewish rabbi ancestors. I grew up like other atheist Catholic people. I had a string thirst for manly touch since my father (himsself an orphan) never did touch me. he did touch other boys but not me. It was paoinful. I never dared to let the other boys embrace me I shunned them, my fathers cvoldness made me believe that I am worthless. I tried to overcompensate I could draw very well, so I got the awe of my surroundings as a prodigy. And I learned well, I learned languages easily. But i always felt out of tune with others. So I emigrate dillegaally, but in the "free world" at 20 I discovered pot and gay fantasy so I ran back to the Soviet camp, risking even prison (which I escaped due to my epilepsy, which stemmed from my depression caused partly my mothers bipolarity partly my fathers abandonment. And then I thought the solutioin is to try to assume my gay identity. (Dyed hair, becoming an actor, filmmaker friends, getting famous, writing also when the Soviets stopped censorship (in 86 already, when I was 30 I published my first novel). Okay...I stop here. I am not yet healed completely. It does come back..I mean the self-depreciating void feelings...(I keep writing, I have a drawing-cartoon column I work as an expert and teach at a Rabbinical University, so outwardly everything is excellent and fine. Inwardly this aching self-doubt is recurring daily.
But since I discovered my ancestors (some were Trassylvanian Princes like Dracula, some were great Prague rabbis,like the one with the Golem) I learn history and understand that everybody is making mistakes and feeling stimes well, sometimes less well, so we are all average. I transitioned from proud gay (which I could not accomplich, being anorexic and shy and not beautiful enough to ever lure someone except for mb-ing once) i nto a married two-children father. I formed a same-fate selfhelp Association for Fathe-deficited and aAddicted Perosns (to dissseminate therapy techniqiues, in an anti-fundamentalist way, not claiming that harmony cannot happen to some other gays, maybe to most...
Since i discovered I am an exgay (and that some others in my family were able to assume leadership responsabilities) i begin to be able to give a Voice to my deep 50 years old pain.
So there is no quick band-aid. But prayers helped in a way: like when you pray you do sthing that is "expected" and thus you practice self-discipline (even while a voice - a fatherly criticizing voice - says that prayer is silly ) and self-discipline breeds self-respect.
(Of course I tried many religions, but the Echoer copncept of the Existentiator /the Jewish originakól discovery of the Incvisible Being whop saves - in Hebrew: Yeshuah, the original for "jesus") from constraints (Egypt), well this really makes pprayer less silly. Why not "let" the Eternal (the non-Ego power) be a "person" (since we also consist of milliards of atoms and still feel" like a "person". Why deny it could be possible for the rest of the world?
So prayer and slef-discipline (or mediation and regular exercises and responsibility assuming and dfaily postponing of self-doubt self-pity bouts like in a 12step group) helped me and maybe it is worth trying for you too (even if you are not so exceptionally frtunate as me with my lately discovered famous ancestors...but you know, 400 years ago the people who lived then are the ancestors of all the present ones.

So maybe we are brothers.
Bye
try to accept suffering thats the other part of the answer. "God" (Tao) creates good and bad. Both.And maturity does not come without losses and grieving...one can pound illows crying maybe in a time-share co-counsleing setting and one gets relieved. Try it. Even the best most intelligent people feels stimes dumb. Its okay to feel that and not say a word.

[write]

'dissociate' is a sad place- no connections, a hiding place, exchanging short-term safety for longer-term growth....

Hope now you've discussed it some you're not feeling dissociated at all!

[Kheng]

dissociate' is a sad place- no connections, a hiding place, exchanging short-term safety for longer-term growth....

Hope now you've discussed it some you're not feeling dissociated at all!


Yeah, disassociation is a very sad place to be at.  It feels like a slow painful death of the spirit and vitality.  I, actually, don't feel better since I've written a little about myself.  Everyone who've posted on this thread with their thoughts and suggestions have been so gracious.  Behind the printed words I appreciate the thoughtfulness.  But, for me personally, I've come to a point where I don't want to hear people suggesting for me to do this or that....granted, those things have worked for them.  I even to start feeling uncomfortable with suggestions and advice.  Sometimes, I catch myself doing the very thing I don't want others to do for me...talking to instead of talking with the person, instead of hearing them out with no suggestions even if they are requested...giving people space to expand upon their thoughts.  I find that is a very difficult thing for me to do for others.  I think I tend to ask others for suggestions about certain things, and when I get what I had asked for, I pull away from them.  I guess when I ask for suggestions I'm actually saying I don't believe in myself.

 I just want to feel that whatever I'm feeling is quite okay.  For me to think I need to change is for me to say that I'm not okay.  That there is something broken within me that needs fixing.  That is saying to myself that I am not whole.  If there is one word that best reflects how I feel about myself, it is shame.  I even feel ashame of feeling ashame of myself.  I think the worst thing any adult can say to a child, verbally or nonverbally, is "you should be ashamed of yourself!"  Or, "I'm ashame of you!"  Those words create a wound that may never heal.

[Sela]

Hi Kheng:

I am very sorry that any suggestions I made might have seemed like me not listening to you.  I do want to listen.

Whatever you are feeling is quite ok.   Feelings are ok.  Actions may not be.

If I feel angry that's ok.  If I tell you I want to hurt someone else because I feel angry, that's ok too but if I go ahead and hurt someone because I feel angry........that's not ok (in most cases eh?).

So if you are in a sad place, that's ok.  You said you 'don't feel better since (you've) written a little about (yourself) and that's ok.  You did ask what has helped others to deal with feeling like a failure and if you've changed your mind and you don't want to hear any more, that's ok too.  Quite ok.

I guess when I ask for suggestions I'm actually saying I don't believe in myself.

I do want to listen so I'm going to ask some questions and you can decide to answer or not.

Why don't you believe in yourself?
What does believe in yourself mean to you?
Does it mean to have faith in, trust, rely on? (that's my def without looking it up)
If so, what have you done that has destroyed your faith in yourself or stopped you from trusting and relying on yourself?
Do you want to believe in yourself?
If not, what do you want?

For me to think I need to change is for me to say that I'm not okay.

Is everyone always ok?
Would it be a terrible thing if you thought you weren't ok?
Are you trying to say that you just want to be ok with feeling like a failure?
Is it ok to feel like a failure?
What does feeling like a failure really mean? (What types of thoughts lead you to feel like a failure and why?)

If there is one word that best reflects how I feel about myself, it is shame.  I even feel ashame of feeling ashame of myself.

What have you done that is sooooooooo terrible?
What are you ashamed of?
Do you think bad things about yourself and then feel ashamed?
Has anyone else said stuff to you and then you felt ashamed?
Did your parent(s) say "You should be ashamed of yourself" or "I am ashamed of you"?

I'm glad you think those are some of the worst things adults can say to a child.  I would be really worried if you thought those were quite ok.   If they said those things to you, they were being mean and nasty and cruel.

when I get what I had asked for, I pull away from them.

What do you feel at that moment, when you get what you ask for?  What do you think makes you pull away?

(((((((((((((((((((((Kheng)))))))))))))))))))))

I hear your pain.  I hear you saying you understand and feel the caring of all who have posted to you and that you appreciate it.  You don't sound like such a terrible person to me, nor do I feel ashamed of you.  I think you are admirable for being so honest and so open and for having the courage to expose your deepest stuff.

Talk away, if you feel like it.  I'm trying to listen and if I missed stuff or got it wrong, it's because sometimes I fail and that's ok too, right?

Isn't it ok to fail?
Is it possible to never fail?

Sela

[Sallying Forth]

I'm afraid my perception of myself in a state of failure are too deeply rooted and entangled during my teenage years and later years that just telling myself certain things is not strong enough to dissuage or disentangle me from my perception of myself as a failure.  I wish it could! 

Fear is such a strong force.  How did we end up developing all sorts of fears in our lives?  Why do some ppl fear this and not that?  Sure, past unpleasant impressionable experiences can bring about fear.  But why are some people able to move beyond that and not others?  I think the biggest fear I have is fear of failure.  Maybe if I don't fear failure than it will not have such a relentless hold on me.  The very way thing I try to run away from is the very thing that constantly taunts and chases after me like a monster in a dark alley.

BTW, I used to come on this board awhile back.  I went by the name Butterfly.

Kheng

Hi Kheng,
A phobia is literally what brought into long-term therapy and my healing journey began. I was afraid of water and getting on a boat. The fear came out of nowhere - seemingly - but in reality its birth began in the early years of my childhood.

If you lived with a N as a child fear of failure would be ingrained in you since N's are into perfection. Everything has to be perfect for N's. If you are the chosen child they will project all their failures onto you.

I can now clearly remember one incident which my mother twisted and made me look like the failure. Of course for years I remembered it as my mother had described it - I was the failure. I failed to keep an orderly desk at school in kindergarten! Gee-sh! My goodness! Her need for orderliness and perfection and neatness and rules and regulations permeated every day of my life. My mother is both NPD and OCPD which means she knows she is perfect and she strives to be more perfect. What a combination! Anyway the story she tells about my desk at school was all I could ever remember until one day in therapy when as I was telling it I visually was transported back in time to that very day. And it didn't happen the way my mother had told me. Gee, do tell. My mother has lied about a lot. She said the teacher told her my organization skills were sadly lacking and that my desk was a mess. In reality there was a parent-student-teacher night at school and my mother saw my desk and came unglued. No child of mine is going to have a desk that looks like this. Those were her exact words. Instead she turned the incident around and said the teacher told her to get me a desk and have me organize my stuff in the desk. Everyday she would check my desk at home to make sure it was neat, orderly, clean, etc. ad nauseum.

Here is but one incident about how my mother's N behavior permeated my life and made me feel like a failure. In essence she projected her fear of failure (OCPD) and perfectionism (NPD) onto me. I have learned that I am not the neat and orderly type. I am creative and imaginative. I am not obsessed with perfectionism I like details and can see the whole picture as well.

[pennyplant]

 I just want to feel that whatever I'm feeling is quite okay.  For me to think I need to change is for me to say that I'm not okay. 

Hi Kheng,

Your whole post is interesting to me but I highlighted these phrases because they touch on something I'm struggling with.  All my life I have changed myself and/or my actions to accomodate others, get along, try to please people.  But I'm sick of it actually.  I look all around me and see people behaving in terrible or ridiculous ways and I notice they don't seem to think they need to change or accomodate others.  And it seems that somehow they got the idea, in childhood I suppose, that they are okay, they are fiine the way they are.  And that bothers me for many reasons.  It makes me feel like I have wasted a lot of effort and I have hurt myself too by allowing my very spirit to be "up for grabs".  And they seem to have a richer life in some ways than I do.  Nobody is ostracized, for example, just because they have what I might perceive or judge to be "flaws".  I basically picked up the wrong idea.  Perfectionism is simply the wrong way to approach life and relationships.  Trying to please others is no good if that is all I'm trying to do.  It is manipulative if you think about it.  And not the real me.  And other people don't appreciate it as much as I assumed all these years.  It is hard to live in a way that is the opposite of that.  But I think I really have to stop with all the changing and accomodating and trying to please others at the expense of who I really am.

The way you have explained what you want to do gives me a new way to think about something that I also want to do.  I'm not saying I want to become terrible or ridiculous!  Just that I want to just be okay with who I really am instead of being so willing to throw away aspects of myself based on what I perceive other people wanting from me.   It's that value thing again.  If I have value, I shouldn't have to keep adjusting and refining who I am.  Even my flaws may have some value.  Hopefully.  'Cause like I said, I'm sick of changing all the time!

Pennyplant