How to tell Healthy Self-Esteem from Narcissism.

[MarisaML]

I found this on the Oprah Magazine Website.
http://www.oprah.com/omagazine/200308/omag_200308_beck_b.jhtml

I thought this was cool.  The way to tell a Narcissist from a normal person. 

THE OBJECT OF MY AFFECTION
How to Tell Healthy Self-Esteem from Narcissism
By Martha Beck

Try this: Go to the person in your life who reeks of self-esteem and ask, "In what ways do you think you need to grow or change?" If the person is psychologically healthy, the list will be as long as your leg. That's because real self-esteem is based on finding areas where we can improve ourselves and honestly working to overcome problems. Healthy people know that they are always a work in progress. Narcissists, on the other hand, will tell you they have nothing to change. Narcissists often live in anguish, while refusing to accept that their own behavior has anything to do with their discontent.

[ANewSheriff]

Marissa,

This is a great post.  I absolutely and whole-heartedly agree.  Most of us want to fix our flaws.  We recognize and own our imperfections so that we can grow and change for the better.  Most people that I know are in this bracket.  But...  I have had the experience of a select few who do not seem to be able to hold up that mirror.  And, God help those who try and hold it up for them.  Eeks!

Thank you for taking the time to share that.

ANewSheriff 

[write]

great info, MML.

( you think Oprah is N?
or it's just an image pushed by the tv bosses for ratings.
It seems moe and more people become 'commodities' when  they become famous )

***

Absolutely- people with good self-esteem ( or even medium self-esteem ) don't respond defensively to every question.

they crave praise because it's the closest they ever get to unconditional love. Martha Beck

because that was often the only love they were shown- satisfy this for me and I'll worship you; let me down and I'll hate you in a heartbeat.

It's not just the 'jump through hoops' so many parents seem to inflict on their kids ( 'vicarious living' ) but the total withdrawal and no comfort or reprise if the kid fails to be perfect. And since the definition of perfect isn't constant how could the child not...

I look at my own son and sure, he's disappointed me.
There was a period where his behaviour was obnoxious and disappointed me often.
But rather than punish him he would crawl onto my lap and just lie there in dishonour soaking up love and my trust and belief that soon he'd be ok, he'd grasp what I wanted him to be.
And I'd love him more not less in the meantime.

You win a tug-of-war by dragging your opponent across a line on the ground—or do you? If the tug-of-war happens to be nonsensical and destructive, then the way to truly win is to drop the rope. This is my favorite method of dealing with narcissists. As soon as you feel that crazy sense of walking on eggshells, fending off narcissistic rage, stop. Walk away. The narcissist will win the tug-of-war. You'll win your sanity. Take your pick.

If you practice any of these behaviors regularly, you will find that life becomes much less frightening. You'll be able to handle any narcissist who happens to cross your path. And you'll learn to climb off your own roller coaster of shame and adulation. This is an act of guts and grace that will help you heal the world rather than hurt it—a legacy no narcissist, however powerful, can ever claim.

I read a book once where the psychologist started by saying a master had a favourite pupil. He invited him to tea, but when he handed the tea out he picked up a stick and said 'if you drink, I will be offended that you offend protocol and beat you; if you don't drink my delicious tea, I will be upset that you rejected my gift, and beat you.'

The psychologist asked, what should the pupil do then?

There are always many answers from each group, but few which say 'get up and leave the room'.

[MarisaML]

Marissa,

This is a great post.  I absolutely and whole-heartedly agree.  Most of us want to fix our flaws.  We recognize and own our imperfections so that we can grow and change for the better.  Most people that I know are in this bracket.  But...  I have had the experience of a select few who do not seem to be able to hold up that mirror.  And, God help those who try and hold it up for them.  Eeks!

Thank you for taking the time to share that.

ANewSheriff 

You're welcome Sheriff!  I once thought that I must be the different one because I have always focused on fixing my flaws.  When those around me seemed to be quiet content with what they are.  Until I found out that these people were N's.  Well some of them.  The ones who do most of the talking anyway.  And you're so right... "God help those who try and hold it up for them".  My Mother-in-law once stated that she IS perfect.  I thought it was a joke.  It wasn't.

an N would be offended you asked too  Who me, change?  you must be mistaking me for all the peons that surround me.
Bean

You're absolutely right about that one!

Write, I just read that too about Oprah.  It is very possible.  If she is than I'm sure that she is well satisfied with her N supply!  I enjoy watching her show sometimes, but I'm lost when it comes to understanding all the hype.

they crave praise because it's the closest they ever get to unconditional love. Martha Beck

because that was often the only love they were shown- satisfy this for me and I'll worship you; let me down and I'll hate you in a heartbeat.
 
This Martha Beck really knows what she's talking about.  Very well said.  Thank you for sharing that.  That gives me more insight into what makes the N tick.

I read a book once where the psychologist started by saying a master had a favourite pupil. He invited him to tea, but when he handed the tea out he picked up a stick and said 'if you drink, I will be offended that you offend protocol and beat you; if you don't drink my delicious tea, I will be upset that you rejected my gift, and beat you.'

The psychologist asked, what should the pupil do then?

Maybe the pupil should pick up a stick as well.  Either that or RUN! 


Oh and thank YOU teartracks.  I'm glad that you guys enjoyed this thread.

[mum]

Someone gave me a quote recently:

"Self esteem without empathy is just narcissism".

[reallyME]

Someone gave me a quote recently:

"Self esteem without empathy is just narcissism".

EXACTLY

[reallyME]

Storm: That is a classic, classic double bind. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. And yes, the only healthy thing to do is to take the third way, and leave the system...

I'm pretty sure that next to nobody ever noticed one of my posts about Jodi doing the "double-bind" on me, so I'll share it here again since it seems to fit somehow.

She told me to fix my hair, but I couldn't get it the way she wanted it (I was speaking at her church and so I was to look "the part" so that she would look good as my mentor)...so she taught me how to fix it, but I still couldn't get it right.  At that point she said "Look, if you don't want to fix your hair, don't fix it just cause I said to."  So I said fine and didn't bother to mess with it next day.  Then she said "what's WRONG WITH YOU?  Why don't you want to fix your hair?  I can't believe it!"  I looked at her puzzled and went to work on my hair again.  I got it looking similar to how she had it.  I came out of the bathroom and said "Ok I fixed it"  (I was quite proud of how I got it to look)...Jodi looked at me scowling and said "WHAT DO YOU WANT? A COOKIE?"

It felt like I was screwed whether I fixed my hair or not.  If I did, I was told I didn't have to.  If I didn't I was interrogated and mocked.  Double-bind.  She and her husband were really great at double-binds, unspoken rules, playacting, and bait-n-switch tactics.  They apparently tacticted their foster child right on out the door.

[MarisaML]

Someone gave me a quote recently:

"Self esteem without empathy is just narcissism".

That is a great quote, Mum! 

ReallyMe, I read your first post.  And you're right your story is a perfect example of a 'double-bind' courtesy of a Narcissist.  And what you must've been thinking through that whole experience...like WHAT?  Isn't it funny how the N spends so much time working on their reputation and how they look to people?  Because after awhile most people figure them out and then they have very low opinions of them.  Thanks for sharing your story.

[ANewSheriff]

mum: 

"Self esteem without empathy is just narcissism".

These seven little words just about say it all, don't they?  I am filing this phrase into my memory.     

ANewSheriff

[gratitude28]

Great topic and posts... I get to wondering some of the time if I am not an N because I feel like I am trying to better myself and they are not and maybe I am thinking I am better because I am doing that.... aaarrgghhh... you know what I mean (I hope?). At any rate, I do have empathy, so that is a good thing I can take criticism (not always happily ) and I have so many things to improve in myself that I don't know if there is anything that I don't need to improve upon. Sometimes I think I don't find any good in myself, so maybe I go the other way and don't have a very healthy self-esteem at all. Do any of you wildly fluctuate about self-esteem like I do?????
Love, Beth

[MarisaML]

YES!!!!!   

[pennyplant]

Sometimes I think I don't find any good in myself, so maybe I go the other way and don't have a very healthy self-esteem at all. Do any of you wildly fluctuate about self-esteem like I do?????

In any one hour of the day I can go several times from feeling great about me to thinking I'm a waste of air.  Those are some pretty wild fluctuations.....

My third eye?  I believe it would be on the back of my head so I could watch my back, especially at work!

PP

[gratitude28]

I wish I could also have a little filter in my head which would suck up the negative thoughts before I ever get to recognize them. I have heard so many negative thoughts that my first instinct is to think something rude and then go back and try to erase it with what I really think.
For example... If someone gets sick, my mind will say, "Well, she deserved it... she did... ". THAT IS NOT ME THINKING THAT! Those are the words I heard growing up. So I have to delete those words and pull out my words which are more like, "She must be scared and worried. Maybe I can help somehow."
DO you all have to override ugly thougths???????

[Hopalong]

Gratitude,
I totally do that.
You are NORMAL and NICE.

(Don't worry about streakers in your head. We all watch 'em zoom by.)

Maybe N's kids have to work more consciously at thought stopping or correcting, but I doubt it.

Maybe all you need to do is just observe the thought and NOT BEAT YOURSELF UP FOR IT.

It's the afterthought that counts.....

Hops

[gratitude28]

The hardest one to tame is the , "Yeah right... you were emotionally abused. Who doesn't claim that nowadays." My parents reject any sort of self knowledge or seeking for happiness. Although, I do have to say, they have been kind about my alcoholism.