Author Topic: Does this seem like an "N" to you  (Read 2227 times)

SilverLining

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Does this seem like an "N" to you
« on: May 09, 2006, 10:14:48 PM »
After much soul searching and study I found my way to this board.  I have been trying to understand my relationship with my parents for years.  The concept of voicelessness sure seems to fit.  Here I am middle aged and I still find myself dreading interactions with them, mostly my father.    He doesn't have a loud braggert personality but many elements still seem narcissistic, sort of an introverted narcissism.

He's now in his 70's. He doesn't have a single friend, and has only had one in his adult life, and I don't believe he had many as a child.  So his social contacts are entirely with relatives and friends of my mother (she has quite a few and is very opposite my father in personality)

His favorite form of "communication" is the monologue.  He talks nonstop about a book or magazine he has read recently (he was a scientist in his professional life), without soliciting any input from his audience.   He is able to quickly flip any conversation back to himself and discounts or counters just about any idea or opinion coming from anybody else.  His interests are rather limited, and he disparages the interests of others.   The tone of voice is usally flat.   He has suffered from fairly obvious depression for much of his adult life, and has had some problems with alcohol.   He doesn't have any unproblematic relationships.   

I find I can be around him for maybe an hour before I start feeling my annoyance and frustration starting to rise.  Yet at the same time I have always felt guilty for wanting to avoid the guy.  I have for years felt I was put in the position of being his friend/parent. 

Well that's just a few details of a longer story, but I thought I'd throw it out to see if any body else has had similar experiences.  For the last couple of years, I've thought my father might qualify as autistic, but that doesn't very well explain the abusive edge to his interactions.

Thanks for any input.       

Certain Hope

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Re: Does this seem like an "N" to you
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2006, 10:55:31 PM »
Hi tjr,

   Welcome to the group. There are so many twists and turns of personality and combinations of characteristics... whew, I dunno. But from my own experience, I saw three very strong factors present in the narcissistically disordered individual who rampaged my life: Pathological lying... i.e., telling a falsehood even when it would be easier (and make more sense) to tell the truth ...
a Sense of Entitlement:  i.e., the entire universe owes the narcissist an undying debt of gratitude simply because he exists....
and finally a grandiosity that knew no bounds. He knew it all, could do it all, whatever, better than anyone else who had ever lived or ever will.

I hope that helps a bit. Through all of my reading and researching, I discovered that it didn't really matter what tag you put on it, it was disorderly and damaging. Forming strong boundaries and learning how to not incorporate their illness into our being is a great step toward healing. Blessings on your efforts toward that.

Hope

Hopalong

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Re: Does this seem like an "N" to you
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2006, 11:59:29 PM »
Hi TJR, and welcome...

I just watched the film "The Squid and the Whale" because I'd heard it featured a narcissist.

Boy, did it ever. And in some respects, the character struck me as someone who would age as your father has. Let me know what you think if you happen to see it.

Glad you're here, glad you're taking the steps to get yourself off the guilt-hook. It would be crazy NOT to feel frustrated around him. Sounds like you don't act it out, but you're owning it. Good for you.

Hopalong
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

SilverLining

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Re: Does this seem like an "N" to you
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2006, 12:55:58 PM »

But Aspies aren't usually mean, as I understand it. Is the disparagement 'mean' or is it more 'know-it-all-ish'?

Meanwhile, welcome, tjr - I hope you'll find answers and community here!

Thanks everybody for the replies.  It's uplifting to discuss this with people who who have an understanding of this stuff  :) 

I first learned about Aspergers syndrome a couple of years ago and this label seems to fit pretty well.  Most of his disparagement leans toward the "know it all ish".  It usually  isn't overtly mean, although in recent years I have learned a lot of it  could be considered covertly abusive.  He tends to counter just about any opinion or idea expressed by someone else.   His own opinions seem to flip back and forth to whatever position can be used to counter the other in the conversation.  Thus there is never a "safe" topic.    He can switch back and forth several times in one conversation.   After being countered and otherwise "dissed" several times, I find myself just sitting back, shutting up, and letting him go on with his show.  Maybe this is the game I was conditioned to play.  I have strong memories of the same type of interaction even when I was under 10.    And my non responsiveness never mattered.  He can rattle on about whatever topic he chooses for what seems like hours (in reality it usually exhausts itself in 10 minutes or so).   In any case, the typical pattern is non-reciprocal interaction.  He talks, others listen (or appear to). Others talk, he doesn't listen and gets the topic back to himself. 

There are other symptoms of AS, such as weird hygiene habits, and a general "geek" persona.  He has always appeared to be obsessed with reading.  He reads constantly, but never seems to develop much real expertise in any one area.  Nevertheless he presents himself as expert on any topic.   

Incidentally, my paternal grandfather was similar in a lot of ways.  He lived out his later years out in the woods (alone with his timid wife) waiting for people to come visit him and receive his wisdom.  He was disappointed when nobody showed up. Part of the family mythology is that my grandfather was very abusive to his five children, especially my father.  I have also gotten hints my father started displaying AS traits at a very early age, and may have invited abuse from his more extraverted father.     

I notice there isn't much information out there about AS, so if anybody out there has experience with this, I would sure be interested.   

pennyplant

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Re: Does this seem like an "N" to you
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2006, 02:48:25 PM »
Hi tjr100,

This comes from a book called "The Essential Difference, The Truth About the Male and Female Brain" by Simon Baron-Cohen.  My father bought this book for himself near the end of his life, probably because of the title as he liked comparing intelligence.  He was reading through and got to the Asperger's Syndrome article and recognized himself.  He was so excited to have a name for what he was like.  This is what it says:

"In the 1990s clinicians and scientists also started talking about a group of children who were just a small step away from high-functioning autism.  They diagnosed these children as suffering from a condition called Asperger Syndrome (AS), which was proposed as a variant of autism.  A child with AS has the same difficulties in social and communication skills and has the same obsessional interests.  However, such children not only have normal or high IQ (like those with high-functioning autism) but they also start speaking on time.  And their problems are not all that rare.

"Today, approximately one in 200 children has one of the autism spectrum conditions, which includes AS, and many of them are in mainstream schools.  We now have to radically reconceptualize autism.  The number of cases has risen from four in 10,000 in the 1970s, to one in 200 at the start of this millennium.  That's almost a ten-fold increase in prevalence.  This is most likely a reflection of better awareness and broader diagnosis, to include AS.

"People with AS do not suffer from problems as obviously severe as are seen in the mute or learning-disabled child with autism.  But most children with AS are nevertheless often miserable at school because they can't make friends.  It is hard to imagine what this must be like.  Most of us just take it for granted that we will fit in well enough to have a mix of friends.  But sadly, people with AS are surrounded by acquaintances, or stangers, and often not by friends, as we understand the word.  Many of them are teased and bullied becasue they do not manage to fit in, or have no interest in fitting in.  Their lack of social awareness may even result in their not even trying to camouflouge their oddities."

Some of the characteristics listed in this book:

socially odd
odd in their communication
unusually obsessional
usually males
evidence of brain dysfunction such as epilepsy (my father had seizures as an infant)
major difficulties putting themselves into someone else's shoes

"People with AS have their greatest difficulties on the playground, in friendship, in intimate relationships, and at work.  It is here, where the situation is unstructured and unpredictable, and where relationships, social sensitivity, and reciprocity matter, that people with AS struggle."

"one can think of people with autism and AS as people who are driven by a need to control their environment.  Being in a relationship with someone with AS is to have a relationship on their terms only...."

Adults with Asperger Syndrome:  "In most cases these patients also suffer from clinical depression, as they have not found an environment, in terms of a job and a partner, that accepts them as different.  They long to be themselves, but instead feel forced to act a role, desperately trying not to cause offense by saying or doing the wrong thing, and yet never knowing when someone else is going to react negatively or judge them as odd.

"Many of them struggle to work out a huge set of rules concerning how to behave in each and every situation, and they expend enormous effort in consulting a sort of mental table of how to behave and what to say, from minute to minute.  It is as if they are trying to write a manual for social interaction based on if-then rules, or as if they are trying to systematize social behavior when the natural approach to socializing should be via empathizing."  [My father underlined that last part in the book.   He was so relieved to discover this syndrome.]

My father did have friends but had trouble maintaining contact with them.  Often they were also socially awkward people, or outsiders, or underdogs.  He just didn't understand people.  I remember once asking what he remembered about one of his grandmothers who died when he was old enough to well remember her.  He told me about the car they drove in to visit her, the arrow heads that her son collected and had on display, and going out for an ice cream cone afterwards.  Since he wasn't much of a talker, I was surprised to get that much information.  But I was also quite surprised that his memories of his grandmother only involved concrete objects and favorite activities rather than what she was like or things she might have said to him.

Do you think any of this fits your father, tjr100?

Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

SilverLining

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Re: Does this seem like an "N" to you
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2006, 06:40:44 PM »
This could be a warning flag, yes.  Why does he find it so hard to relate to people outside his family?  Maybe because he can't manipulate them like he can manipulate you all?  Others don't play his game, they don't understand the rules and they don't "get" their role.  You and others in your family on the other hand, have been trained to play your roles over the years, whether the rules were ever stated explicitly to you or not (and usually they're not), you "get" them: be Dad's friend, no matter what - even when it causes you huge amounts of anxiety and grief.  So your Mom's job is getting him supply?

This is the funny thing about Ns, and its that you don't have to actually be listening to your N, you can just pretend and they don't know the difference (they never bother to check, it's all about them, see).  Your compliments don't even have to be or sound sincere, either.  You can say them however you want, in almost any tone and they'll buy into them.  Why?  Cause they want to believe anything good they hear about themselves.




There are lots of helpful insights in your post bean.  I definitely have felt my mother was playing the role of providing "supply" for my father.  It seemed she was pushing me into the task of being his friend, even if it was unpleasant/destructive for me.  In later years I come to realize she may have been trying to share the grief.   She took a job in her 40's, after being a housewife for 20 years, was very successful and developed an active social life of her own, which I now suspect is what kept her sane. 

I have noticed when my father is monologuing, he stares off into space, as if he is interacting with something inside his own head, rather than a person outside himself.  And as you suggest, it does not matter what the other does or says.  I have found my role in a conversation is usually just to provide a "trigger" for a monologue on a topic which may have little to do with whatever I have said.  For example, I say "I hear we're going to have snow tomorrow" and he replies with a 5 minute monologue on the latest advances in weather forecasting science.   I recently have come to recognize how much I have "dumbed down" my comments in order to avoid the usual type of responses, but it still doesn't work.   One method which sometimes works to shut him up is to compliment his insights. 

Unfortunately I don't believe we have ever had a conversation which I could consider significant or satisfying. 

Hopalong

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Re: Does this seem like an "N" to you
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2006, 10:44:02 PM »
Well put, Bean.
I'd like to second your compassion.

(((((((((tjr))))))))))

I hope the "jr" doesn't stand for "junior"--or if it does, that in some way it'll give you peace.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

SilverLining

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Re: Does this seem like an "N" to you
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2006, 12:53:06 PM »
Well put, Bean.
I'd like to second your compassion.

(((((((((tjr))))))))))

I hope the "jr" doesn't stand for "junior"--or if it does, that in some way it'll give you peace.

Hops

The J is not for junior, fortunately.  I've long been aware of my desire to not be a "junior".  A mid life challenge as I see it is to figure out if in what ways I might have inherited/learned the same habits. 

The Aspergers label sure seems to fit well.  It just dawned on me today, around strangers my father tends toward AS behavior.  Around family it becomes somewhat more obviously narcissistic.  It's at its worst in a one on one situation.  In the past few months I realized an essential defense behavior for me is to simply avoid the one on one situations. 

Well thanks again for the comments everybody.