Patience

[Sela]

Hi all:

Hiya Stormy:

I was placed in a no win situation.

Had I not told you, I would have been essentially colluding with someone who violated your confidence.

If you collude with anyone who violates my confidence in order to help me.......go for it.  If they violate to hurt......I wanna know about it.  That's just me.  Ofcourse, you have no way of knowing that unless...you had asked?  Or maybe my making rather light of it and saying that the secret pm'er needed more patience.....was an indication of my view? 
I didn't ask you on the board or by pm even though you mentioned this last night, did I?

Someone you trusted.

I still trust her.  Isn't that something?

Someone you did not realize had done this.

Someone I did not realize had shared bits of a pm with you of my words in order to try to help me.
 

I did not want to be in that position. It was not right for someone to put me there.

So..then...the answer to the question what motivated you is.........you posted to relieve your own feelings of dishonesty??  For yourself right?

Telling you, I risked provoking an anger reaction, sooner or later.

Well, Stormy, incredibly, that hasn't happened yet.  I'm still not angry.  Ain't that strange?  I know.  But I'm not.  Seriously.  I feel a bit confused.  I feel somehow.....used.  Is that the right word?

But I understand, I think, now, that in order to appease your own feeling......you posted.  Is that correct?  Or have I got that wrong.  I want to get it right.  I really do.

My telling was a form of whistle-blowing. I told you knowing that. Whistle-blowers are seldom thanked. They rock the boat.

I don't agree.  I did thank you.  And I was grateful when I thought you were doing something to help me.  But now I'm not so sure.  I'm just not sure you are a big whistle blower either.  Because really.....what P did......helped.  You did post back to me and you did accept my appology and you did appologise further and we did talk and we did work it out.  Didn't we?   So how did what she did.......hurt?  I don't think it did.  Did it?

I've also seen that PMs have been misused a lot recently. People threaten to disclose their contents on the board. I myself have been openly libeled on the board, by someone who totally fabricated that I was PMing them on a topic and for reasons that I considered defamatory.

I'm so sorry that that is happening and has happened to you.  That is really and truly disheartening.  Do you feel you cannot trust to pm?  What's to stop someone making stuff up again and posting it as if you had pm'd it?  Lies really suck.  I do have an aversion to lies.  I am so sorry this happened and if you posted to me as some kind of reaction to what happened to you.  I do understand.

But I don't think you can rack it up to whistle blowing.  Whistle blowing occurs when someone exposes hurtful behaviour.  Behaviour done with malice.  Behaviour meant to cause harm.  That's my opinion, anyway.
Maybe I don't understand whistle blowing well enough.  But that's how I see it.

The way I see it.....it doesn't seem to have helped me or really...seem like it was intened to help me...this so called whistle blowing.  If so.....it could have been done by pm.  You could have asked Portia to fess up.

Do you think you would have still felt like you were colluding, had you asked P to confess?

But the whole PM thing seems to have become problematic, and I don't think it used to be.

I have no idea how it's working for everyone else.  None.  I can't generalize like that and feel good about it.  There are problems, I agree, but the whole thing?  I don't know.  I still have faith in it.  But that's ok.  I mean we don't have to agree on everything.

Please give me credit for something: instead of telling you the way I did, and shielding both Portia's identity, which I did, and the details of the PM, which I also did,

Oh I do think that was wise and discreet.  I do.

I could have chosen to put the PMs out here on the board. That, to me, would have been very wrong.

Indeed.  What would be your motivation for doing that?  What reaction do you think you would have gotten?
I doubt very much that would have been very beneficial eh?  No.  I don't think so.

I made a deliberate decision not to do that. Portia chose to disclose her actions out here. She could have PM'd you, easily, to settle this.

Yes.  She could have done that.  And left the rest of the board wondering who this mystery pm'er was....who was going around .....forwarding people's words......with good intentions to help each......

Not blaming, just pointing out that I have shown great restraint. Last night and today, anyway... and I'm still sorry about my lack of restraint earlier.

I believe you Stormy.  And I am sorry about your physical health because that's gotta have an influence on what's going on.  It's gotta.  For me it would.  When I'm in physical pain...my brain just doesn't work the same.  But maybe I'm weird?  I don't know.

I didn't ask Portia to PM me. I didn't ask her to tell me what you told her in confidence. I wasn't going to be forced into taking ownership of it, by denying it had happened.

You felt as though you owned this terrible secret?  This info that I had told her in confidence....that was given to you......in order to try to help me was just too much to keep secret?  Come on Storm.  If you were asked by me about it....you would then be in a position of being forced to deny or expose.  But just having confidential information on hand?  Is that the only bit you have?  About anyone here?  About anyone?  Is it that hard to contain?

I'm not blaming you either.  I'm trying to understand why you did this today.....after all was well and things seemed all well and good.  It wasn't to help me was it?

I didn't feel that I could PM you about this. Light is the best disinfectant

Why not?  What did you think I'd do?  Get mad at you?  I'm still not mad. Not at all.  I hope you believe that.
It's true.  But I am having a problem with you acting......as if.......to help me...when really, it just doesn't seem like it.   And even that's ok.  As long as you are willing to be honest about it.

Maybe I'm completely wrong?  Maybe I've misunderstood what you've said?

. But as I said above, I was careful to protect the identity of the PMer and the content of the PMs. That was out of consideration for both of you.

Really?  Well, I wonder what people would have thought....had you named names?  What would they think of you for that?  I don't think keeping the name quiet was actually alllllll to protect or in consideration of myself or Portia.  I don't know.  But I don't think so.

I understand your need to follow up now. I'm afraid that we're all going to be left with a little residual discomfort about this, until enough time passes that we've all had a chance to show goodwill when other sets of chips are down.

Thankyou for this Stormy.  I understand your fear.  I think that will pass.  I think it will be lessened by each person's bravery.

I hope this helps. If it doesn't, and you continue to have concerns, perhaps we could discuss the matter with Richard. I'd be willing to hear what he has to think. I think I've done the best I could here under the circumstances.

I don't think I want to ask the doc anything.  I'm really interested in hearing from you, when you get a chance, if you feel like continuing here.  I think it's important.

Thanks for taking the time Storm.

Mud,

The overriding issue for me is trust.

With all due respect, the issue for me is truth......first.  It comes long before trust in my book.

LOH: 

you gave everyone an opportunity to discuss the issue of PMs in general and expectations around confidentiality

I agree.  This is one positive that can be noted.   Thanks for noting it.

Portia, for the record.  There's nothing wrong with asking for the truth.

  Sela

[mudpuppy]

I should have taken a longer walk.

mud

[Stormchild]

Hi Sela

OK.

Three hours after I put up that terribly wounding post I wrote, Portia sent me a PM applauding it.

Here it is, in its entirety.

Portia
 Hero Member
 Posts: 1733

oh ...
«  Sent to: Stormchild  on: May 25, 2006, 09:42:06 AM »
     
 ...thanks on Sela's behalf (maybe). I liked your gift. Guts? I'm a bloody chicken. and busy

I didn't see this anytime soon after it was sent, because of all the other things that were going on.

A few days previously, I'd made a remark about rhetoric on the board. Portia posted in reply out there, I think, and also PM'd me asking for further info.

I did not dissect your post on her behalf, but in the post above, she seems to think I did it for her, and she seems to think it was pretty cool.

24 hours later, she sent me a PM in which she included a number of things you said to her in confidence.

Here is the header and her intro:

Portia
 Hero Member
 Posts: 1733

info
«  Sent to: Stormchild  on: May 26, 2006, 09:28:42 AM »
     
 This may help from someone else’s PMs in chrono order (do you know I have to wrestle with my conscience to do this? Really dumb). Hey I had to work very hard. Thanks! Thanks.

Midafternoon of the same day, the following was sent: given in its entirety.

Portia
 Hero Member
 Posts: 1733

checking
«  Sent to: Stormchild  on: May 26, 2006, 03:37:34 PM »
     
 Storm, what will happen now? Will you talk to Sela or shall I (on PM)?

I assumed (......) that you would say something but I assumed and I don't know...

Can you let me know please your thoughts?

Now: the reason I put up that appalling post, of which I am thoroughly ashamed, had nothing to do with Portia.

It was a Karpman Triangle reaction. And a classic example, too.

When you replied to my post to jacmac as you did, I felt bullied and angry. I managed to get that reaction under control, and posted a peace offering - offering to accept that you had been angry at me; you denied being angry, and then I felt frustrated [snubbed, no closure]. Your response didn't feel entirely honest to me - there was a strong need to rebuke and enlist in that post to me, some emotion must have been driving it - but I again got my response under control. Until, bless you, you posted to mudpuppy very sympathetically about thugs and bullies.

That had nothing at all to do with me, but off I went. I went right into Karpman Victim [projecting: how dare she talk like that to him, when she knows she's bullying me!] and right from there into Persecutor [well, I'm going to make it extremely clear to everyone exactly what she did!]. With regrettable results that we're all still anatomizing two days later.

The 'exercise to the student' bit was actually my frustration at the way people seem so unwilling to look at the whole issue of Karpman dynamics and codependence and so on, in the interactions here. Ironic as anything, because there I was in the middle of a Karpman acting-out snit myself.

So. I apologize again, and I mean it just as much.

But Sela.

What kind of friend - friend to you, not to me - PMs me to approve of me doing this to you?

What kind of friend then takes things you've said in confidence about me and sends them to me without your knowledge, on the very same thing she was applauding my having done, privately to me, earlier?

What kind of friend comes back here when the issue has been resolved and forgiven, and does everything in their power to stir the pot until it boils over once again?

Those are the questions that need asking here now. I have asked and answered all of mine.

[For the record, Richard can confirm these posts if he has web admin privileges, he can get into all our inboxes and outboxes. What I have posted here is what I received.]

I don't think I'll be speaking to either of you again, here, unfortunately, although I don't intend to leave the board. Best of luck to you both.

[Sela]

Stormy,

I have to read what you wrote over again because I don't understand it all yet.

I don't think the answer is to stop communicating with eachother but I do understand if you need a break.

I just hope it won't be a forever break.

My head is spinning now.

I have to read and think and think some more. 

Later, ok?

Sela

[Sela]

I should have taken a longer walk.

mud

You do always make me smile.

Thankyou mud.

  Sela

[Hopalong]

Aw, hell.
I like all three of you so very much.

I just want to say:
People can have mixed motives, mood cycles, and little dark spurts that are out of character when they're still GOOD people and even GOOD friends.

I have had nuclear boundary battles with my best friend at times.
We have taken breaks from each other.
Then we make a conscious choice to see that everyone has some twisted place inside that can get activated by certain events...and we often just have no idea what we're doing until some time afterward.

I got in a triangle once with two other people and this friend...and it was very similar, and they both forgave me. But not without me feeling awful about myself for a while.

The lesson in it for me was that sometimes I would stir things up because I had an intense need for connection, and lingering boundary confusions from my Ndamage, and if I felt shamed, or if I over-identified with someone (not saying these were any of your issues lately, they were mine when this happened to me)...the Creature from the Dark Lagoon would take over and do all sorts of confusing instrusive mixed-up things. And they were mixed up, with love and with dependency and with anxiety.

The other lesson was that most of all I needed to forgive myself. Luckily, both those friends are still among my closest friends today...and we have just a more sanguine feeling about how every single one of us has San Andreas faults, and we're less alarmed by them than we used to be. Now I feel more like when I feel it rumble in myself or see it evident in a friend, I'm more observing it, but not believing it. As in, not believing it sums up this person.

((((((((S, S, P))))))))))

Hops

[Sela]

Then we make a conscious choice to see that everyone has some twisted place inside that can get activated by certain events...and

Dear kind Hoppy.  Thankyou so much for reminding me of this as my heart breaks open once again.

I wonder if it will ever not happen like this for me.   It just seems like my lot.

Stormy, I don't know the answers to your questions.

on edit:

So. I apologize again, and I mean it just as much.

So do I Storm.  Three fold.  I'm so sorry.

 

Portia:  What does this mean?

thanks on Sela's behalf (maybe). I liked your gift. Guts? I'm a bloody chicken. and busy

Can you answer Stormy's what kind of friend questions for me?   I just don't know.  I feel sick.

  Sela

Mud:  keep crackin' jokes whenever you can.  it's the only sane thing to do.

[Portia]

Sela and Storm,
I hope this helps, it’s me being real and truthful about my thoughts and actions.

I have mixed thoughts about this board. I’m not sure there aren’t a couple of therapists here every so often; then I change my mind about that and think that’s silly.

I said I made up a story in my head. Here’s my somewhat crazy story. I haven’t checked my PMs or posts about it, because this is the illogic, what went through my head.

I decided that there was no way an intelligent woman like I see Storm was reacting in all truthfulness to Jacmac. So I had this (paranoid grandiose) idea that Storm was ‘managing’ something. I wrote to Storm after I posted my very bleak reaction to Jac’s questions of me (Jac’s triggers thread). I wrote asking if she’d be my mentor and what does counter-transference feel like? Storm responded with lots of smilies saying something about me always bouncing back. I posted on the what helps board about empathy, projection etc.

At some point I mentioned that Sela was someone I chatted to, in my mind referring to Sela’s post to Storm, hoping Storm would realise that Sela had reacted to her on my behalf. Trying to dampen the effect of Sela’s post. Don’t think I made that clear but didn’t think I had to. Next I know Storm posts the big one to Sela and I’m overwhelmed, don’t know how to take it. I decide to take it as some sort of teaching exercise all round (at this point I’ve decided that Storm is a psychologist). I think the post is too over-the-top to be serious and that it’s serving some purpose. However, I believe that Sela’s response is genuine and I’m pretty horrified and panicked by all this, go into my crisis management mode. I still trust Storm’s intentions as good, if rather manipulative at this point. I decide that Storm needs to know Sela’s feelings so that she can respond appropriately. I’m still in ‘student’ mode. I think the post was a shocking thing meant to encourage learning. That’s why I said whatever I said above. I thought Storm was taking a huge risk with her public profile to post something so biting and I saw that as ‘guts’. I thought she posted it to help Sela (not quite sure if it helped me but I go with the flow when something weird happens here, I genuinely have such trust in ‘the board’ that it probably seems incredibly gullible of me).

Pretty stupid and a tad mad of me I think. But I bet I’m not the only person who’d ever thought like this about events on the board? I think I know I’m not.

Storm,
I still don’t know why you posted that post. I don’t have to know but I was shocked. There you go, that’s my stupidity and naivety; or lack of reality. In cyberspace on a psych board, I reckon it’s easy to go a bit bonkers. Why do you think I sent you that PM about Sela’s response? What was my motive? Did you think I wanted to shame you, show the pain and say, here look what you did? That’s the only thing I can think of that you might have thought. That wasn’t my motive but maybe you thought that? I don’t know. Who’s more bonkers, me or you do you think?

Storm, this:
[For the record, Richard can confirm these posts if he has web admin privileges, he can get into all our inboxes and outboxes. What I have posted here is what I received.]

FOR GOD’S SAKE I have enough self to be able to tell the truth about what I say and do. It’s about being ‘real’ Storm. Real is telling the truth without having to resort to the ‘authority’. Sheeesh. Just what do you think I am???? Some evil internet sadist posting just to cause upset? I’m not angry here, I’m frustrated.

Sela,
I am that whacky at times, although this is probably the whackiest and I don’t usually act so impulsively. I am very sorry, still, because I know that post hurt you. And we haven’t even properly talked about what hurt and why. Maybe you won’t want to now, maybe you will, in time, maybe I’m now the last person you want to talk to, given all that. I wouldn’t blame you. I hope the background stuff helps, if it doesn’t and you’d rather not talk, that’s okay. I think it sounds weird and I’m shocked now I’ve written it. Lunatic.

Last night after Mud’s post – think of others – I thought yes, I’m not doing any good here, for me or others any more, I need to leave it alone. I thought Sela I’d like to still chat to you on PM, but I really ought to keep myself off the board, it’s not doing anyone any good.

But then I checked this thread and thought nope, I got to go back. This is so far from what my mad brain imagined. So.

Don’t know what else to say right now. Hope this makes some kind of sense, if it doesn’t, ignore it, I’m still ‘sane’ in real life, it’s just here I lose it sometimes. It’s the environment I think. I have to go. I’m no fake here and I got things to do.   

[lightofheart]

Hi Everyone,

A kind person here recently pointed me to a post by Dr. Grossman they were moved by, and it touched me as well. Thanks to Dr. Grossman (the whole post is dated 2/16/06) for packing so much wisdom in one of that post's paragraphs. imho, it bears repeating:

From time to time, as a result of conflict and disagreement, we see wounds open up on the board.  The immediate natural inclination to such an event is to defend our positions/selves, quickly to re-cover the injury, to say in effect:  “you are wrong about me…I am not like that…I have value.”  The stakes—the viability of the self—are incredibly high.  My hope, however, is that we can also use these wounds to self-observe—I’m not referring just to the participants in the conflicts, but the readers as well.  Look at the vehemence and passion required to protect/restore our selves.  Understand it, qualitatively and quantitatively, as a measure of the protection we needed and lacked from critical (both meanings) people in our pasts.  Think about the destruction done to our selves because historically we had no protection.  Talk about it, cry about it, own it.  Here, we are all fighting for our lives.

Richard

[Stormchild]

These are the PMs to which Portia refers:

Portia
 Hero Member
 Posts: 1736

will you be my mentor?
«  Sent to: Stormchild  on: May 24, 2006, 07:21:10 AM »
      
 haha! To the tune of 'will you be my mwommy?' I'm half joking.

How are you Storm? Pretty good from where I'm sitting.

I've told Sela I'm okay.  We chat a lot on PM so we're close.

re What Helps board post. Counter transference. Sure it happened to me...I concentrated so long on that thread, about an hour or more? and my stomach erupted in aches. I was there babe! It was pretty bleak; a pit of emptiness and being adrift. Horrible. Empathy? or something else? Fascinating. Really. What do you think? (I posted 'in the moment' and then shook it off, it felt so bad and pretty overwhelming.) yes i am serious. I trust you. Now!

I'm fine wih your replies. I hope you're okay with this pm. I need to go back to your pitta bread and see what was going on. I have no idea right now. But maybe I know where to look. huff huff pant pant.

I'm such a kid I know.

Stormchild
 Sr. Member
 Posts: 300

Re: will you be my mentor?
«  Sent to: Portia  on: May 24, 2006, 07:28:40 AM »
      
 Oh P.

You're like the Unsinkable Molly Brown... this is a compliment, if you don't know the movie. No matter what, she pops back up and keeps on keeping on. Inspirational.

I have to run, gotta hit the shops before I get to work, but I wanted to quick reply before I go. I'll come back and talk more, promise.

About the recipe thing, it's OK. It really really is OK. Not that you relived pain, no, I'd never want to cause that, but it was and is OK for you to react to me about it. I'm sorry you had that in your life for real, very sorry.

L8R

The countertransference being discussed here has to do, I think, with Portia's reaction to the 'faffing pita' joke recipe I put up on another thread, as well as a post she put up on the 'What Helps" thread that really impressed me.

Her reaction to the 'faffing pita' joke was negative and intense, and came as quite a surprise to me.
I think the replies she was referring to above are my replies on that thread: I explained my intent [laugh at our monsters] and Portia rejected my explanation as unworkable for her. So I tried to accept her where she was, and felt badly for causing her pain which was never intended.

The Unsinkable Molly Brown reference is due to her having reassured me that she's OK now.

The only other PM I sent Portia after this is the one I sent in response to her emails above regarding Sela. I  was not proud of it when I described my reaction to Sela on the board, and admitted that I'd essentially told X to 'go boil their head'. I'm still not proud of it. It was harsh, and I am sorry. But it's the truth of what happened.

Here it is:

Stormchild
Sr. Member
Posts: 300

Re: checking
« Sent to: Portia on: May 26, 2006, 07:32:08 PM »
  
Bugger off, Portia.

I spent most of yesterday finding out if I had a perforated ulcer. I just got online now for the first time since this morning. I do not need you managing my life. You don't know one tenth of what is going on in it.

If any of the foregoing is manipulative on my part, I honestly can't see it. And I honestly didn't see that Portia was asking me to interact with her therapeutically in any serious teacherly sense. I'm not a therapist; I'm a Ph.D. chemist. I've just been in recovery a long time, and I read too much.

For that failure to see what she meant, if I slighted her, or disappointed her expectations, I am sincerely sorry. Added on edit: and for telling her to 'bugger off' when I did, the way I did, I'm even sorrier.

But I have been providing what I can, in terms of insights, when I can, out here on the board, hoping that people will be helped more than harmed by it.

I can see, given the dates and times of these messages and the lack of other response from me, how my post to Sela might have been mistaken for a teaching session.

What I still have trouble understanding is that anyone would think I'd do that purely for instructional purposes.... and that anyone who was supposedly a friend to the person I targeted would approve of it, even initially. That is no longer 'my' issue, and I am letting it go.

**************
I want to apologize to the board and to Portia and Sela for putting up PMs here. I struggled to avoid this, to avoid even identifying Portia publicly, and I tried even harder to avoid bringing out the issue that still baffles me about Portia's response to my first post to Sela that started all of this. I could see no useful purpose in doing any of that. It was, however, the reason I felt compelled to alert Sela - as delicately as possible - to the fact that her confidence was breached.

I felt that she and I were, possibly, being played off against each other. I didn't want to come right out and say that. If she took up the issue of the PM disclosures with Portia, I thought it might come out between them, on its own. And I thought that was where it belonged.

I realize how ironic this is, with these PMs having now been posted. But if this conflict had not been resurrected last evening, these postings would never have occurred. After thinking the issues had all been resolved, I found myself being judged again and publicly condemned, without the evidence ever being seen by the passer of the judgements. And feeling more strongly than ever, that we were being played off against each other.

There seemed then - and there seems now - not to have been any real alternative to this, in response.

I'm sorry. I truly hope that nothing like this will happen here again. I personally intend to do everything in my power to avoid it. That's the only apology I can offer, and the only amends I can make.

[Sela]

Stormy, I'm so sorry that I doubted your motives.  That was totally unfair and irrational of me, especially
after I made such a big deal about saying how I believe most people here have good intentions, and I deeply
regret doubting yours.  I hope you will find it in your heart to forgive me.  I'm really really sorry.

Thankyou for not putting my words that were pm'd to you by Portia up here.   Thankyou for alerting me,
for struggling to do the right thing, for trying to be discreet and delicate, for all the upset this has caused you. 
Thankyou for stating what you intend to do to make amends re what's happened.  I'll try to follow in your footsteps.

I feel responsible for a lot of what's happened because it was my post to you about stuff you said to someone
else that started this whole thing.   I'm the original worm-can-opener. 

I am having trouble understanding why Portia approved of your ....let's call it......"teaching" post to me too.

I can see, given the dates and times of these messages and the lack of other response from me, how my post  to Sela might have been mistaken for a teaching session.

If you believe this might have happened, then I am inclined to go with that.  Portia has said on the board before
how she finds even some .....really difficult posts that have been made to her......helpful and how she has learned from them.

I do believe most people here have good intentions, most of the time and I believe that about Portia too.  Maybe
I'm naive?  But my gut tells me not to jump to conclusions.....to try harder to understand....so I am trying.

Thankyou for your added apologies, I think I owe them to you instead and I hope you will decide to talk with me
again.  I sure hope you will.


Portia, I have illogic that goes through my head too sometimes and I've even shared some of it with you.  But logic tells me to ask you more questions.

You liked Stormy's gift?  That vicious post.....seemed like a gift to you?
What parts did you like?  What was it supposed to be teaching me?

What were you "a bloody chicken" about?
What did you want to say to me that you were too chicken to say?
What were you thinking I needed to learn?

That's what it seems like you meant by those words.  I'm trying to figger it out.  I'd rather if you'd just
explain it further, if you would, please?

....we're close

I think we are too.

I hope the background stuff helps, if it doesn’t and you’d rather not talk, that’s okay.

Sounds like you're letting me go awfully easily.  Like it's not that big a deal eh?

Don’t know what else to say right now.

Grovelling would help ( ).  Expressing how you feel right now would help.  How do you feel about thanking
someone who posted that "big (mean) one" to me?  What does it feel like to have hurt your friend?

And I am your friend.

I believe you're "not some fake".  I'm not either and my feelings are genuine, thankyou for thinking that.

I also thought you were a person who would fight for what you believed in?

Don't you believe our friendship is worth more than what seems like a detached explanation of events and a
"I wouldn't blame you" not to talk?

I don't want to talk about how Stormy's post hurt me.  That's kind of overwith now. 
How about we talk about how you have hurt me by betraying my confidence and violating my trust in you?

I believe your intentions were to help (in relaying my words by pm to her).    I think it was very brave of you to tell the truth about a) you being the secret pm'er and b) your "wacky" story that you were......experiencing.

Do you understand that my trust in you has been shaken up and I feel hurt and confused by your ......
what seems like......a lack of concern?
 
Sela

On edit:  I took out a "but", which made no sense, and added a "please" because I forgot to say it.

[Sela]

PS:  Couldn't sleep so I thought I might as well just put my thoughts here.

[Portia]

Hi Teartracks, Storm, Sela

I'm sorry I don't have much time or mental space today to reply properly. I will tomorrow I hope.

I'd like to say that in general i think I tend to expect the positive, I'm more optimistic than pessimistic, more trusting than distrusting. But I can be prone to 'paragooda' on this board - thinking things are being manipulated for the best. Why here? Because I find it hard to believe what I've encountered here and how much I've learned and how much of an idiot I can be. I can't believe the effect on me, which is silly: I manufacture the effect, not the board.....so.

However, that is my underlying belief, that the board does good. Because I keep weighing up the 'evidence' and the likelihood of the alternatives - and they don't stack up. Also, at the end of everything, I'm probably a 'depressive realist', a hill of beans kind of attitude. You know, so what if human life goes, we don't matter, we only think we matter. That sustains me.

Sela

I feel hurt and confused by your ......what seems like......a lack of concern?

I'm sorry that you feel hurt and confused by what I said. Lack of concern, or letting go of the outcome, letting go of your decision? I can't affect how you see me now, not really, well I guess I could, but that wouldn't seem genuine or true or real. I am what i am. You are what you are. Lack of concern, like 'giving up'? And then you think that I think you're not 'worth' any more fighting for? I get it do I? Right. You're worth fighting for. Are you asking me to prove myself? Prove my depth of attachment? Probably not, but that says a lot about me perhaps.

I'm a wobbler with avoidant tendencies I think. So maybe I'm heading for 'let's get outta here'. I'm too stubborn (or just too old and tired) to do that.

I *feel* very responsible and yet it's out of my hands. It's out of my hands.

Lack of concern. See when it gets to 'what do you really feel' I think, what do I feel? Then i think, I must be a raving N because I don't feel very much.

Problem is, I refuse to pretend very much. We all die. The main 'emotion' i feel generally in life is confusion, then probably annoyance.

I have a huge concern about 'you' and about our friendship but i can't be mushy or insincere about it.

Don't you believe our friendship is worth more than what seems like a detached explanation of events and a "I wouldn't blame you" not to talk?

Detached? It seems detached, really? Maybe I am? Could be. What do you mean, detached?

"i wouldn't blame you": give you the chance to say okay then, see ya. Is it also a test to see if you will say okay then see ya? It didn't feel like a test when i wrote it, it was more 'oh well I don't think anyone is gonna understand this so I might as well stop fighting now'.  That was my survival route. Try and then stop. And if necessary, run (because sometimes people do get nasty).

I'm talking about your last question because it's your last question. I'll talk about all the rest tomorrow. I'm sorry I can't say more about my feelings. Okay, one last thought:

What does it feel like to have hurt your friend?

Like shit! What's that? A sick feeling in my stomach. What's the emotion?

feeling misunderstood. Confusion.

Does that help? Seriously, does that help?

This is my childhood: "You hurt me!" and these were my parents and they lied. I guess i have a reluctance to believe that I could 'hurt' anyone? I don't think I'm that.......?

So maybe that optimistic jokery covers a layer of deep pessimism? maybe deep down I'm a really empty person without much humanity? i don't think so. I think I think and I prefer it to feeling. I don't think i hate myself, but how do I know?

Anyway here I am blabbing all about me: it's embarrassing. Isn't it boring too? Seriously aren't you bored? That is a serious question, believe it or not.

[Portia]

I went away and thought: uh-oh! Suppose TT, Storm and Sela think I'm bored with them???

I don't mean that! No no no. I was bored with me and wondered if you'd be bored by me. True.

I'm not bored at all by anyone here; in fact I'm probably too interested in everyone. I just haven't the time to be as interested and involved as I'd like to be. I find everyone here very interesting and engaging....and I know to some that sounds cold and clinical 'interesting and engaging': but, it's true.

What is more important than being interested in someone, and giving your time?

I had a thought too, a new theory: what do you think?:

all emotions can be distilled down to this - understanding or misunderstanding.

Understanding is everything to me. I want to understand and mainly those pesky things called emotions just get in the way!

Understanding - or the attempt to understand - is empathy.

Projection is not empathy.

Counter-transference can lead to empathy, pretty directly, if such a thing as counter-transference isn't simply a term that professionals have invented (something we all experience all the time but which when called 'counter-transference' is something that only happens between humans in a therapist's office!).

Hope this helps.

[Sela]

Hi P:

Thankyou for saying I'm worth fighting for.  No, you don't have to prove anything.  How can such a thing be proven anyway?

I'm glad you're too old and tired to do a "let's get outta here".

I don't think you're a raving N at all.  I'm glad you have a great concern about our friendship.

When I read your post.....it just sounded like you were reciting facts.  So that struck me as maybe your way of protecting yourself....by sort of detaching from your feelings....not saying much about them.  But you say you don't feel much of anything so I guess I was wrong.  Or else.......another possibility could be..........maybe you don't know what you're feeling?  Or maybe it's feels the safest right now not to go there?  I don't know.  Not meaning anything negative about you.  It's just that I have trouble telling what I'm really feeling too sometimes and I have definitely set my feelings aside by choice, and I guess I think that might be the case for other people too.  Maybe not.

You didn't think I'd believe you?   You are ready to run 'cause maybe I might get nasty?

Nope.  I believe you.  Nope.  I'm not gonna get nasty.  Does that help you?

I'm glad you exposed yourself here and said how you feel like shit and confused and misunderstood and have a sick feeling in your stomach.  I'm not glad you're feeling all of that but I'm glad you said so.   I'm sorry for all you're feeling too.  It doesn't sound very nice for you at all.

I don't believe you are an empty person without much humanity. 
I think you're a good person with a big heart.

Sorry this whole experience is bringing stuff from your childhood upfront.  This isn't your childhood any more.  The same stuff might not happen.  Probably won't happen, even, because I'm not your parents and I hope I'm different, plus, it's safe to be yourself....now.....here, I thnk.

You prefer thinking to feeling?    I think it's impossible not to feel (to only think) but also that it is possible to distance oneself from one's feelings, as a coping mechanism.  I've sure done it.  I don't know which thing I like or dislike most.  Some feelings are pretty good eh?  Some not.  Same with thoughts.

I'm not bored P.

Sela