I am number six

[Portia]

I’m sitting here having read all replies and I’m thinking do I have anything to say? This is such a warm, thoughtful, helpful, caring, inclusive, careful, respectful thread….that maybe if I post I’ll muck it up, I’ll hurt it? Then I thought, that’s silly P. Then I thought……I’m too peripheral, too way out there, I can’t join this. !

PennyPlant,
what a great thread. Thank you for starting it and taking great care with your replies too. Such care!

Am I number six? No, probably not on the list. Not being morose here but factual: I was an outsider to the extent that I literally didn’t understand what was going in groups, the dynamics even at primary school were alien to me. Only recently have I learned how to behave in groups and sometimes it’s still tricky for me. Is that wrong? Maybe not. I learned to watch and listen and wonder if I wanted to be in any group. This (here) is the only group I’ve belonged to and liked.

I can write alone here and that suits me. People can comment, disagree with me, connect with me and that’s great, because it’s once removed, it’s not here and now. I can walk away, reflect, control my input from a distance. It’s probably about control? And intimacy?

PennyPlant, I can’t help but ask questions and look at the person who starts a thread, I always imagine there’s a question, a problem, a confusion to be addressed and maybe that upsets people, me doing that? I don’t know. It’s part of who I am; I get bored with me and get more interested in others, and so:

So, I'm on this board now and still completely confused about the value of my role here.

The value of your role - to you? or to the board (group)? Or to individuals? Or is this something that’s deeper….the meaning of life kind of thing? (Sorry, I’m trying to dig about 20 feet down and you haven’t even replied yet!). This sentence struck me as important to you but I could be wrong. Hope it’s okay with you?

PS Did you ever see the tv series The Prisoner? Maybe not, it was British, 1960s. The main character was Number Six. His enduring line was: "I am not a number, I am a free man!"

Edit in

Now I feel as though I’ve done this thread a disservice by not telling a story, so I’ll try and tell one. Remembering school days. Just realised I thought it was kind that my father collected me at lunchtimes (age 5) to buy me sweets and take me for walks around the streets; but now I thought, that was for his benefit, not mine, maybe that’s why I didn’t have friends? Maybe not. Trying to remember friends at school. First and second schools, no idea. Third primary school, age about 9. Had a friend there, don’t know her name. I gave her a shoulder ride and she fell off and broke her front adult tooth and I still feel bad about it. Think of good times there…telling stories at playtime, a group of girls would sit and listen to me tell stories that I made up. What were they about I wonder?  Fourth primary school, I remember the female cliques and being wary of them. Can’t remember any friends there. Secondary school for two years and met my best friend who was an outsider taunted by the others. Maybe I felt a kinship? We became very close and eventually accepted by the others. Interesting. I then moved to an isolated unhealthy community and went to a rubbish school so I joined a small group of drop-outs; I guess we were the ‘peripheral group’ .

Whatever place (or role?) we occupy, or imagine we occupy, I suppose the reality is that we’re never the only ones in that position, we’re not alone, it just feels that way sometimes. 

Now I’ve read your post again PP, what is your role here? Whatever you want to make it I guess. How about ‘starter of thoughtful and helpful threads’? What’s my role? Have I got a role as such or do I just type and post and see what folks think, probably, yes…I don’t see it as a role, although sometimes I do see myself taking responsibility that isn’t mine, repeating old patterns, but a role? I’m not sure I want a defined role even in my head, things change, thank goodness.

[Brigid]

Hoppy,

I didn't mean to ignore your very sweet response to me (especially after saying that I am trying to get better about accepting compliments  ). 

You have such a gift for always knowing the right thing to say.  I will simply say Thank You.

Hugs,

Brigid

[lightofheart]

Hi Pennyplant,

When it seems natural, I hug.

Me, too. Such a gift to give and receive, aren't they?   ((((((((Pennyplant)))))))

Your original post here was so touching; both your own Six stories and your genuine interest in everyone else's Sixes...hadn't given much thought to the qualities that make a good thread-starter, but yours (Congrats for boldness!) couldn't be more compelling, imho. For what it's worth, I would really like to know what you think your role here is? Do you have pictures of that?

One little picture: you were the very first person to greet me here. I really appreciated that, Pennyplant, and always look forward to reading your posts. You 'speak' here with a lovely gentleness and a rare quality of being as interested in other people's experiences as your own. imho, these are compassionate gifts. (My Gramma would say, 'Oh, that Pennyplant, she has a nice way about her!')

I will start with something that I do know about myself.  It is something that comes up frequently here.  Thread ownership.  I started this thread.  As soon as I hit post, it will no longer belong to only me.  It will belong to everybody here.  That is a way of operating that actually works for me in my life.  I enjoy seeing what develops naturally.  

imho, this is a lovely self-portrait: a welcoming, receptive, thoughtful role. Your openness about accepting what comes, taking people where they are, honoring their Sixes is giving and an inspiration. I hope to emulate your soft footsteps should I start another thread.

Thank you for that.

Here is one more Six story for the collection (ironically, my H. calls it the '12 of Twelves').

In 6th grade, I was part of my first clique. Didn't know it was a clique, hadn't heard the word, but we did have a self-appointed leader. One day the leader ordered us to do something mean, something that would've hurt another person, and said, If you don't do this, you can't hang around with me anymore.' This confused me, because I didn't think of friends as bosses. I didn't even consider doing what she said, it was so obviously wrong. Also didn't consider that everyone else would go along with her, including my best friend. I was 12, as awkward as I'd ever be in my life, the 1st kid in my grade with braces, and I lost all my friends overnight. They just pretended I didn't exist, which was hard, since we sat next to each other in most of our classes. So I found other friends and tried to keep my chin up. Forgot about this story for years. Until my first truly scary boss. One day she literally ran out of a meeting with our Board of Directors, left me holding the bag, and got drunk in her office. After the meeting, she cornered me and asked four or five times, more desperate each time, if I still respected her. I really needed that job. And saw clearly that my days would be numbered if I couldn't give her that lie (truth is, I hadn't respected her before the meeting). But I just couldn't do it. Because, in many ways, I'm still that 12-year-old who can't stomach going along with a bad thing, no matter what it costs me.

Thanks for asking, Pennyplant, and thanks for sharing your Sixes, too. imho, they're all still in us, sometimes for the better.

LoH

PS- I really like that the boy from Kindergarten told you why he couldn't invite you, too, sensitive little guy.

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hi ((((((Pennyplant)))))))

I’ve read your post and the replies and few times and wondered how to respond.  I really enjoyed reading this thread.  I’ve had several I am number six times, especially in childhood where I sat on the outside.  I was never invited to parties as I was never allowed to go so people just stopped asking.

LoH’s post reminded me of a time when I was 11/12.  My friends told me that they had turned into lesbians and the only way I could hang around with them was to choose one of them and kiss them.  I so desperately wanted to be liked by them I was prepared to do it, and then they ran off shrieking.  It was a one off incident, not how they normally were and I had forgotten about it.

I feel that everyone has value who posts here and I am glad you took the plunge and posted a thread.

Take care

H&H xx

[Sela]

Good morning Penny and all:

Thanks for saying the "anything" thread is a success.  For me, it's not because it's so many pages long.  I don't think it matters really so much about the number of pages a thread gets to, or that that makes it successful so much.  For me, it's more what I was hoping for.....that someone would be interested in posting there, someone understands or wants to understand, someone wants to add to it or comment.  It goes with not feeling so alone.  "I'm not the only one thinking about this or who has something to say about it" type of thing.  Is it a selfish thing?  I want someone to post to my thread.  If they do, then I didn't waste my time and I don't feel so alone.  If they don't......why?  I don't know.  My worry is that I will still feel alone.  Be the only one who thinks about whatever.

I see threads with 0 replies and my heart goes out.  I always read those and try to post if I have anything at all to say.   I feel sad for the original poster when no one replies but sometimes it's just too weird for me and I have nothing to add.  And some are just some kind of announcement that do not seem to require comment.

But I don't consider that good thinking, really.  People might be thinking some more.  People might be tied up in their own stuff and not able to read or post to my thread.  People might be interested, but more interested and feeling they want to post elsewhere.....and simply because of time element....unable to post everywhere..including my thread.  There are lot's of reasons, I guess.  I need to remember to think of them.

Never underestimate the power of kindergarten!

I love it Penny!  It's sooo true!!

Teachers are supposed to feed passion not kill it.

Yes, although I'm not sure it's possible to kill passion and lucky for me, I figgered that out fairly quick and simply had no respect for the ones that tried to do this.  Weird eh?  But that's what I did.  I'd think:  "Poor useless teacher".  Seriously.  But I was double lucky because I had so many wonderful, helpful, encouraging teachers, with their own passion for enhancing children's development and cheering them along.  A blessing, I think.

I did a LOT of things wrong with him, but that one I got right.

I bet you did plenty more right too.    You seem like a very calm, perceptive and caring mother.   And how nice for your son to have his painting displayed openly and complimented like that.  That's the kind of thing that really lets a child know that their effort is appreciated.  Effort is so important, I think.  Not so much as success but effort.......trying.......is worth noting and rewarding.  It's the only way to success anyhow.

I am sometimes torn between too much "correction" and real growth.  I guess that's what I'm after--growth.  In hopes that it will feel better and better to be alive

It is a fine line too eh?  Between "correction" and "real growth".  In terms of seeing "wrong" vs seeing "potential for improvement".  Correction means there's an error, something's broken, or needs to be fixed.  It's got a whole negative connotation to it implying "bad" (which sometimes......that's exactly what it is......downright bad behaviour that needs correction, for example).   That's what I think.  But for me.......I try to consider potential for improving myself.  That will never change because I will never be perfect, so it will always be there.  Rather than "something is wrong with me", I try to think:  "I could do, feel, be better ...".  The key word there is:  "try".  I don't always succeed thinking like that either.  But I find I go places when I do try harder to focus on how to improve, rather than adding up what's wrong...and to me....that's the road to real growth.

Have you found you've grown by reading here?  Are you taking account of your potential?

These are good questions to ask oneself, I think.  For me, anyway.

In hopes that it will feel better and better to be alive.

I love the way you worded that.  I bet you will get there too!  Keep trying!!

Thanks for saying my thingy about truth and trust was cool (and real growth).  I think so.  When I read it.....it sounds like a tongue twister though!  

The first compliment I ever got from my mother happened when I was 24.

 

I'm so sorry for this.  Compliments are so important for a child.  Especially, from their mother, who is supposed to adore them.  It's sad and unfair that you had a mother that didn't do this or see the value of you.....and point it out....until you were way past where it would have made such a difference.  (((Penny))).

You sound like such a warm and sincere person, Penny.  You deserve to be complimented on your good qualities.  And to be loved for all you are, flaws and all.  Especially......by your mother.

I bet you are different than toward your son than she was to you.  I just bet you are!!

  Sela

[pennyplant]

Hi Portia,

Like my response to IamNewtoMe, this one is going to take me a while to compose because it also hits on things, well, it gets to the heart and soul of it, some of the stuff I struggle with.

You mentioned the care and carefulness of this thread.  It is something that I'm conscious of as I'm composing and replying, and I believe it may put some people off.  But I'm going with it anyway because it is the direction I'm taking my life in.  I have always been a little scaredy cat about so many things.  I thought good behavior would score me some points with others and make them like me, value me.  And I knew when people, kids especially, DIDN'T like me, terrible things happened.  For my age, I was one of the littlest kids in the neighborhood.  Kind of a loud mouth, well more of a jabberjaw.  Still though, not much of a threat to anyone.  I got punched in the stomach, punched in the eye twice, things thrown at me, threats, told to go home and stay there because nobody wanted a redhead around, etc.  My responses were to fly off the handle, yell, cry, and it just made it worse.  And then I had lost my dignity on top of it all.  It was just a vicious cycle.  So, this deliberate carefulness is my way of teaching myself to say what I mean and not get so distracted by out of control emotions that I lose sight of the purpose.  I want to go slow and understand things more thoroughly.  I'm doing this is 3-D life as well.  And perhaps I am still just being tentative out of habitual fear.  Maybe 10 percent.

It is still hard to admit or remember the many times that I acted like a child when I WAS a child but somehow expected by others, my parents or other adults, to be braver or smarter or stronger and just not let it bother me when I was really feeling pretty devastated that my neighbors and peers would treat me so badly.  There were times that I had lots of friends, but that didn't shield me any.  They didn't know how to defend me.  They were probably just glad it wasn't them.

What is my role here?  What is the value of my role here?  Yeah, these questions tell a lot about me and what I struggle with.  I am a person who worries about what others want, expect, need from me.  I still am having trouble thinking my existance is enough.  Still want to be "important".  But what would be important?  I know I don't want wealth or power or fame.  Though when I was little that is exactly what I fantasized when I thought of being an adult.  My young interpretation of mattering to others.  When, from what I could see, I didn't really matter to anyone.  I know I exasperated people.  But I wasn't so desperate for attention that I was willing to annoy and exasperate others.  So, I tried to behave in ways I thought wouldn't annoy and exasperate.  It is a very manipulative way to be.  But that was par for the course at my house.  I didn't realize I was trying to manipulate people and outcomes until I was in  my late twenties.  I thought I was just trying to make life tolerable.  For all involved.

Now I feel as though I’ve done this thread a disservice by not telling a story, so I’ll try and tell one. Remembering school days. Just realised I thought it was kind that my father collected me at lunchtimes (age 5) to buy me sweets and take me for walks around the streets; but now I thought, that was for his benefit, not mine, maybe that’s why I didn’t have friends? Maybe not. Trying to remember friends at school. First and second schools, no idea. Third primary school, age about 9. Had a friend there, don’t know her name. I gave her a shoulder ride and she fell off and broke her front adult tooth and I still feel bad about it. Think of good times there…telling stories at playtime, a group of girls would sit and listen to me tell stories that I made up. What were they about I wonder? Fourth primary school, I remember the female cliques and being wary of them. Can’t remember any friends there. Secondary school for two years and met my best friend who was an outsider taunted by the others. Maybe I felt a kinship? We became very close and eventually accepted by the others. Interesting. I then moved to an isolated unhealthy community and went to a rubbish school so I joined a small group of drop-outs; I guess we were the ‘peripheral group’ . 

Portia, I often think that it is my own fault that people often don't know what to make of me or that they feel distance is more appropriate with me.  I'm so busy being careful, self-critical, and "good" that I suppose they sense something that holds them back.  But don't my quirks say more about me than others?  Or maybe it is true that if I'm too hard on me, then I might have a tendency to be too hard on others.  So, people would be right to be careful if only to guard their own feelings.  And there's the cycle, because that's all I'm really doing, is guarding my feelings.

Sometimes I feel like I'm just a teenager.  The last few years I've gotten myself into some sticky situations in my efforts to free myself from all the restrictions I took on so long ago.  Trying to be human and not "good" all the time.  Trying to be like a regular person and let my flaws show.  Oh, is that ever hard to do.  Even harder at age 44.  Better to have learned these things at 14.

I'm getting around to saying I think it is interesting that you shared your story so as not to do this thread a disservice.  Is that because I said I might lock the thread if somehow anger took over?  I guess I couldn't completely let things take their natural course  .  I do tend to make things more complicated.  It is definitely not easy to be this kind of a person....

Your story starts out similarly to the way my husband's story starts out.  He wasn't on anybody's list either.  They moved all the time.  One time he actually got left behind at the old house and the sheriff had to pick him up--he was about 4 or 5.  What I can't believe is that he still has so much empathy for my "woes" when his seem worse to me.  But he thinks mine were worse because of my family.  I guess he and I were meant to share this life.

Portia, to me your story is one of constant and possibly arbitrary interruptions.  Do you have unfinished business from all that?  Did you skip over any stages of life or growth that maybe now seem to be rising up?  The control and distance of the internet--could it be related to this early life?  These questions come from my own take on how we "become".  And maybe I'm just too analytical.  One of my hobbies is genealogy.  I have spent years off and on looking up my ancestors.  I'm not particularly obsessed with it but the stories I've managed to collect, well, sometimes I can tell how someone's life turned out before I get that far, based on what major things were going on early in life.  The moves, the losses of significant others.  Not that I'm so smart, just that the more things change the more they stay the same.  The people who had stability, fit in with society better.  Lucky for them I suppose.  And who knows which comes first.  Fitting in or stability.  Both seem to lead to longevity.  Personally, I'm shooting for a meaningful life.  What that is I'm not so sure of yet.

I'm glad you risked the carefulness of this thread to post your story, Portia.  All my life I've been caught up in my own outsider-ness.  I knew I wasn't really alone in that, but wouldn't have known what to look for in others.  There is always to much more to a person than what you see, or read, at first.  Everbody is so interesting.  If you can get to that, sometimes you can make a connection.  One of my goals.

Pennyplant

[IamNewtoMe]

Hi All,

I really want to respond more to this thread, especially dear Pennyplant.  But as i have no help with the kiddie today, my time on line is limited.  I just wanted to quickly say this:

Well, maybe these examples from my past are coloring my reaction to your story. It seems like if you could share your own reaction to your mother's words, if you want, that might help me get past my own bias here and learn something new. I'm definitely biased here. Wow, it is no wonder I had trouble forming up a response at first!

I think your reaction to my post was really interesting and meaningful. It really made me think and learn (more on this later).  But I wanted to say that I do not think you are biased, well, only in the sense that everybody on the whole planet is biased.  Each person has a perspective that is unique to them.  That's why people are so interesting.  I really value your perspective, and I'm really glad you started this thread!

more later.

[pennyplant]

Hi LightofHeart,

All the warm things you have said about me and this thread--aren't I just automatically going back and forth in my mind thinking, well what would she think if she saw me at work being cranky with someone who I think is a creep?  Am I still a nice person if I treat someone I don't like coldly?  Why can't I be more neutral at least with someone like that, who is afterall human like me?  I take these concerns to my husband and he has a phrase for this problem--"Sustained Goodwill."  He explained it to me like this:  if the majority of the time you treat people well, do your best, act respectfully most of the time, then the occasional weakness is the exception and you are a good person.  So, if I'm beating myself up about something relatively small in the grand scheme of things, sustained goodwill.

But.... that person I don't like, well they don't get much of the good me and I don't know what to do about that.  Maybe in that situation that's all that's possible.  Selfish, lazy people bring out this cold side of me.  Or people who seem threatening on some level--dumping work on me, jeopardizing my job, being rude and disrespectful to me.

Here on this board, no one has insulted me.  And the times when I have felt anxious, frustrated, mixed-up--I have the benefit of time and distance to work on my feelings and what they mean.  I can show my best self here because of the structure of this group.  And maybe I don't want to keep dwelling on my weaknesses all the time anyway.  I hope I don't go the other way and not be vigilant enough.

LoH, what happened to the girl the clique was going to hurt?  I am so glad you had the guts to not go along.  I am so glad all they did was freeze you out.  Painful enough, I know, but I have heard horrendous stories of cliques who destroyed girls that they turned on.  I was one who was tormented by two former friends.  But years later, when I heard a story about a girl who was run over and set on fire until she died, I realized I could have been much worse off.  It started to set me free from their betrayal when I realized what I might have escaped.  That what they did to me was something I could heal from.

A friend told me once that I am a survivor.  And recently a supervisor told me that I do more than the newer employee (who seriously annoys me with her "work" ethic) because I can "take it".  I don't know how these parts of me fit in with how I am here.  I guess I'm somewhat complicated.  Like most people.  Hopefully, most people who know me well, see that I am mostly like I am here.

Back to your story.  I am so impressed with your response to the out of control boss.  I think I might have lied to her to keep my job, if something like that happened to me today.  Unless I was emotional enough about it to let fly.  Because five years ago, when I walked out on N-boss, it took me five months to get the job I have now.  Which was about as long as our "extra" money lasted.  It scared me when I realized that I can no longer just be hired for whatever job I apply for.  It scared me that I might have risked us losing our house when we still had a son at home.  It scared me that I was 39 then and hadn't made any plans for a pension.  So, I admire greatly that you still kept your standards in spite of really needing that job.  What job came next?  Is that a story of something happening for a reason?

I do feel that me walking out on my old job has led to the path I'm on now, including coming to this board.  So, I don't regret it.  And I hope I get my guts back soon so that if I have to, I will be able to take a risk in support of what is right to do.

Thank you so much LoH.  What I want to do here, is have an impact on others with my story and be impacted by others from their stories.  That has been happening all along.  I have been growing ever since I got here and people have said things which make me believe that they learned something from me.  It doesn't have to be all the people all the time.  What is nice is that it happens frequently enough not to be a fluke!!!  That kind of thing, the back and forth, makes me feel alive.

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

I have to take a little break now.  This is intense and great.  But I have to go back to work soon and didn't sleep well last night (too hot) and so that is why I'm taking a break until probably tomorrow.  I am learning so much.  It might be awhile before I think of a new thread to try.  But it is a satisfying thing to do and well worth it.  All the more amazing how many people here start so many interesting topics .

PP

[Portia]

PP

I’m glad you’re taking a break because I need to too! It gives me a chance to properly consider your reply too. I’ll come back tomorrow I think. For now I wanted to say:

I'm getting around to saying I think it is interesting that you shared your story so as not to do this thread a disservice.  Is that because I said I might lock the thread if somehow anger took over?

No not because of that at all, I thought you saying that was a good boundary-marker and I liked it. No I felt I might be doing a disservice because I wasn’t telling enough, I wasn’t ……fitting in with the feel/tone of the thread. And I like the feel so I wanted to ‘do it service’ i.e. respect the environment? Something like that. Maybe I wanted to be accepted into the group on this thread? Scary thought. Group dynamics! Maybe I just thought there were many stories here and not to share something personal would seem…to be deliberately being ‘different’ and I didn’t want to be different. Interesting? On topic I think. I guess it’s always a balance of some degree. Bye for now!

[Portia]

Hi Penny, long post, I’m splitting in half, trying to control the length of the page…..how anal can I get???

I like the care and carefulness of your posts, it doesn’t put me off, it makes me stop and read carefully. I think you have a distinctive voice, to me anyway. Why would it put people off – and if it did, would you want to talk to those people? In other words, it’s all okay.

I’m thinking hard as I write this because what you say makes me think about myself and I apologise now because I’ve written about me below, comparing I guess.

Reading about how you were treated as a kid. I was punched in the stomach once, aged about 8/9. Three lads ran past and one threw a punch and totally winded me (couldn’t breathe, thought I was going to die), but it seemed completely arbitrary – I didn’t know this boy. Just being punched by a stranger for the heck of it. I was tall and fairly quiet, being tall generally stops other kids beating you up I think, so maybe I escaped that. You appear to have a strong idea of what you were like (talkative, demonstrative), I don’t think I do. I felt more like a shadow, ignored? Maybe.

Still want to be "important".  But what would be important?  I know I don't want wealth or power or fame.  Though when I was little that is exactly what I fantasized when I thought of being an adult.  My young interpretation of mattering to others.  When, from what I could see, I didn't really matter to anyone.

I had a vague idea of being powerful, being able to do what I liked, being free. I know I didn’t matter, I knew it then - not mattering to anyone in the family that is. My grandparents’ love for me was like a treat for being good and it made me believe I had some worth.

I didn't realize I was trying to manipulate people and outcomes until I was in  my late twenties.

Hey this is good going I think! I have no idea what I was doing. I just went with whatever came along, surviving, enjoying whatever attention came my way, somewhat indiscriminately, getting myself into situations where I felt used but thinking I had to do that to survive. I didn’t look at ‘me’ until after age 40.

Guarding your feelings…I guess I guard my feelings too, if I recognise them as feelings in the first place? I do recognise them more now but before, no. People where I once worked viewed me as ‘the odd bird’, at my last work the staff thought I was nutty (eccentric I suppose) and they enjoyed it, I think. I’m harder on myself than I am on other people. Are you harder to others only in your head, your judgements of them, or do you act on your judgements? I’m 44 too. Letting your flaws show….accepting the parts of yourself that you feel are ‘bad’? Are they really flaws? Or things that your parents disapproved of, or those things that you were persecuted for as a kid? Being talkative and having red hair have brought some people a lot of ‘success’ (but I wouldn’t like to be Anne Robinson who uses bullying and condescension to be successful, neither would I like to be her daughter).

One time he actually got left behind at the old house and the sheriff had to pick him up--he was about 4 or 5.  What I can't believe is that he still has so much empathy for my "woes" when his seem worse to me.

Imagine that! At that age. Parents. I don’t know if anyone thinks their woes are the worst? I’m not sure our brains allow it? But we all deal with our own experiences and can’t help somehow comparing them, even though there is no way to truly compare.

[Portia]

About stages of growth I missed; lots of it I suppose, I’ve been playing at being grown up for sure. I used to regress to toddlerhood easily and while I recognise the unpleasant side of that (and it seems to have gone now) I still feel very young in my curiosity … maybe that’s behind the wanting to analyse and explore and dig away at problems …maybe that’s what I didn’t do ages 3 to 7? Beyond perhaps? I don’t remember much enjoyable play (like painting etc); I was pretty serious and always thoughtful, restrained, wary maybe. can’t quite cope with the idea that as adult I can actually do whatever I’m capable of, less, what I want to do! Still enjoying saying ‘no, I don’t want to do that’.

The control and distance of the internet--could it be related to this early life?

Oh yes I’m sure, control of my time and nobody can control me, take a bite. My freedom – the thing I always wanted most – is limited because I restrict myself a lot. But I do enjoy it: I’ve strived for it and it’s security. It’s a controlled security though. This seems pretty bleak. But, if it’s all in my head (and it is), is being ‘out there’ going to help, being subject to peoples’ influences (I’m probably easily influenced if I don’t sense danger and my sensing can be off)? There are very few people I don’t find it difficult to be with for anything over an hour. I feel semi-permeable sometimes and other people crowd ‘me’ in my head, it’s very tiring. In work interviews I take too much notice of the other people, their mannerisms, eye movements, tone of voice and most often, I just don’t like people. It’s not a judgement as such, I just don’t want to be near them. Is it worth trying to change that? What for? Etc.

The people who had stability, fit in with society better.

I don’t like most statistics because they give a warped view. How on earth ‘they’ did research to say the following, I don’t know but I’ll quote the stats anyway. They’re for the UK I think, probably taken from work done between now and 1980 or thereabouts. Of the four attachment patterns, ‘they’ reckon the population falls within the categories like this:

Secure - 50%
Avoidant – 20%
Clinger – 10%
Wobbler – 20%

So if half the population are secure (stable in relationships), they probably fit in to society better – the 50% of society that is also secure. Those in the other categories, well I guess they don’t fit in, they are the ‘achievers’ and the ‘losers’.

Loss of one parent in early life seems to create many people who are exceptionally driven to achieve. Great achievers are not likely to be stable though I think.

I think we can only do the best with what we have; and understanding what we have will help us choose how best to ‘use’ it. I don’t think for me, it would make me happier or more content if I were to try to become a social person. What’s the point? However maybe I can use this thing I have with people in some capacity. I guess it’s trying to work out what I was becoming as a child, and recognising the traits and abilities I learned and putting them to full use. Not trying to change them, or become some other person that really, my brain tells me, isn’t completely possible. It’s being content with what I am, not trying to change into something I’m not – and I’m definitely not amongst the 50% (???where do they get this stuff??!) who are stable, ‘normal’.
What you were becoming as a child – talkative, vivacious, alive, (funny?) – hey how do you fancy joining the local drama group? Get a part as real villain, or an empty-headed flirt, or a duchess, or …?

I don’t imagine I’ve replied as you might have imagined. But maybe there’s something in there for one if not both of us? I’ll post it and let it go!

Oh can I say something about your reply to LoH please? About :Selfish, lazy people bring out this cold side of me – and why not? Why do you have to be ‘good’ to these people when they’re not being good to you? You don’t have to reciprocate with rudeness, but you can cut them off, turn the other cheek. If people don’t treat you well, I don’t agree with treating them better. We’re all equal. We have to do what matches our personal values: if someone robs me, I won’t rob them in return but I will want my property back and I will want to tell them exactly how I feel. These ‘weaknesses’ of yours, aren’t they simply part of being human, do they need correction, or even suppressing? What are they really? Being intolerant of idiots? (that’s not a weakness to me, it’s a survival strategy I mean to build on, seriously).

Hope you have a good weekend if I don’t get back here.

PS Something a little lighter from the media:

From The Mirror newspaper 4 May 2006
WHO IS NUMBER SIX?
By Cameron Robertson
CHRISTOPHER Eccleston is in talks to play the oppressed Number Six in a £6million TV remake of 60s cult classic The Prisoner.  this was only last month, you could write and tell them - you are number six

[pennyplant]

I’ve read your post and the replies and few times and wondered how to respond.  I really enjoyed reading this thread.  I’ve had several I am number six times, especially in childhood where I sat on the outside.  I was never invited to parties as I was never allowed to go so people just stopped asking.

LoH’s post reminded me of a time when I was 11/12.  My friends told me that they had turned into lesbians and the only way I could hang around with them was to choose one of them and kiss them.  I so desperately wanted to be liked by them I was prepared to do it, and then they ran off shrieking.  It was a one off incident, not how they normally were and I had forgotten about it.

Hi H&H,

I'm so glad you brought up the issue of when you always have to say no, people stop asking.  That has happened to my husband and me as adults!  There was the break we took from living here when he was in the Navy and people we had known and  our relatives spent all those years building the habits of who they would spend their Fridays and Sundays and holidays with, who they would just pick up the phone to call or just stop by to see on the spur of them moment.  We never became part of those habits and therefore never became part of those circles.  When we came back and tried to get together it often didn't work because they were already busy.  Almost like they had made permanent "dates" with other people and couldn't change those plans to include us.

Then, once we were able to find a way to participate, our jobs changed and we became unavailable for different reasons.  Our kids were older than everybody else's kids, because we started so young, so they didn't understand why we were so busy and not always available at the drop of a hat.  I think sometimes they felt hurt by that because they didn't yet understand how it is to have to go up to the school three nights a week.  Now their kids are the ages ours were and they are busy that way and still don't have time for us.  It is a vicious cycle when you live your life outside the average rhythms like we did.  We are always ahead or always behind our peers.  All of those things are part of being a member of a group or circle.  Another lesson I learned the hard way.

I wonder, do you think that the time when you were 11-12 and your friends played that trick on you--were you maybe a little more innocent or naive than they were and they took advantage of that?  I'm glad it was just a fluke.  But it did make me think how as children we all take in the world at a different pace.  I remember being slightly less worldly than my peers, less sophisticated and less ready for boy/girl things than they were.  I daydreamed a lot about boys but would get so knotted up inside if it seemed like a boy liked me.  And I do remember playing some nudity games with other girls and also being willing to participate on some level, not because I wanted to (as I never would have thought of that type of physical stuff with other girls) but because I wanted them to think I was as cool as they were.  They were the ones thinking this way, not me.  Maybe I was behind or ahead then too.  Because I sure was interested in boys!!!  It did feel weird to get into that stuff with others girls and I have often thought it was a little warped and was embarrassed that I was part of that.  I'm so glad I didn't get caught!

Thank you, H&H for sharing your number sixes.

PP

[pennyplant]

Thanks for saying the "anything" thread is a success.  For me, it's not because it's so many pages long.  I don't think it matters really so much about the number of pages a thread gets to, or that that makes it successful so much.  For me, it's more what I was hoping for.....that someone would be interested in posting there, someone understands or wants to understand, someone wants to add to it or comment.  It goes with not feeling so alone. 
..............

But I don't consider that good thinking, really.  People might be thinking some more.  People might be tied up in their own stuff and not able to read or post to my thread.  People might be interested, but more interested and feeling they want to post elsewhere.....and simply because of time element....unable to post everywhere..including my thread.  There are lot's of reasons, I guess.  I need to remember to think of them.
.............

I'm not sure it's possible to kill passion and lucky for me, I figgered that out fairly quick and simply had no respect for the ones that tried to do this.  Weird eh?  But that's what I did.  I'd think:  "Poor useless teacher".  Seriously. 
...................

You seem like a very calm, perceptive and caring mother.
..................

It is a fine line too eh?  Between "correction" and "real growth". 
............................

Have you found you've grown by reading here?  Are you taking account of your potential?
.........................

I bet you are different than toward your son than she was to you.  I just bet you are!!

Hi Sela,  I have to confess, I'm always impressed by big numbers!!!  I can't seem to help myself!  A thread that is 46 pages long makes me think WOW!  She really did something there!  But I do get what you're saying about just hoping somebody else out there thinks like you do.  I find that wonderfully comforting myself.

One thing this place is helping me with, present tense as I'm not through learning this particular lesson, is the idea that just because someone goes quiet or doesn't respond to me especially, it doesn't mean they don't like me or think I said something stupid.  They have a whole life going on behind the computer screen and so many obstacles that I don't know about.  My first instinct is always to take it personally and I must be wrong about that 90% of the time or more.  To let go of that idea will be very freeing for me.  This place gives me lots of practice with not taking things personally in the wrong way.

I'm very impressed that you recognized your kindergarten teacher's lack of insight being so young.  Your own insight is one of your special talents no doubt.  My husband had similar insight at a very young age and that is probably one of the aspects of his personality that feeds a part of me.  It helps me trust him.  I have to learn to trust my own insight more.  It is there but I get so easily distracted and doubtful of it.

About me as a mother--I am not being humble to say that I did a very poor job of parenting my oldest son for probably the first 6 to 10 years of his life.  I was aware of what was lacking but my very immature pride kept me from making the necessary changes right away.  Now, as a parent, I think I do more right than wrong.  And I'm fortunate that I didn't let pride keep me from doing better by my first son once I was able.  He is an amazing person in his own right and I think he has forgiven me the bad times.  He has had a hard journey all on his own without me adding to it.  But he is a practical person as his first grade teacher pointed out to me once and also learns as he goes sort of like me.  He seems to be finding his way.

Yeah, you're right, correction has a negative connotation.  I am at the awkward stage now of having decided not to always "correct" my personality.  Sometimes it feels like I'm doing some wrong things by allowing myself to feel cranky or lazy or anti-social for a day or two at work.  But it seems like I have to find a way to balance out the correction vs the growth and sometimes I do some unlikeable things along the way.  I'm sure it's just a stage.....

Yes, yes, yes, I am growing as a direct result of all the reading and posting I'm doing here.  I can feel it happening every day.  That's one of the things that keeps me here.

On the touching thread I mentioned that I think my mother couldn't give what she didn't have.  Now she seems to be aware of the importance of some of this stuff.  It is awkward for her sometimes I think.  But she does make fairly consistant efforts to be affectionate at times.  Sometimes even seems to be trying to be nice to me or say something nice about what I have done.  It's pretty patchy.  With my oldest son, I think I went overboard sometimes in those areas.  I think it made him feel uncomfortable.  Too much attention at times may have felt like scrutiny.  Like being under a microscope.  That didn't happen with his brother.  His brother benefitted a lot from my earlier mistakes.  It was a little harder for me to switch gears with the oldest as I felt guilty for the past and didn't really want to acknowledge it by changing everything all of a sudden.  Kind of dumb now I think  .

Thank you, Sela.  It's so helpful to read your take on things and have your questions to work with.

PP

[IamNewtoMe]

Hi Pennplant,

Sorry to quote so much from your post (below), but I thought it might make it easier, since the post was a ways back.

I got two opposite feelings in me when you shared this part of your story. You see, my mother always made me feel ashamed for not being popular or having boyfriends (at a fairly young age!) as was true for her when she was a girl. Which just made me feel more odd and lonely. And it wasn't like she shared social skills with me. She really didn't have any either, but instead happened to be lucky that she was a very pretty little girl who had an average personality in the 50s. Kids just gravitated to her and she didn't really have to do any work at all. She giggled a lot and was cute and didn't over-think so she could fit in easily as long as she was welcomed, which she was. Guess she thought it would happen like magic for me too. Anyway, I guess I might have felt less weird as a child if my mother had said we had something that big in common.

BUT! It is so not a good thing that she put you into her world like that. So, the other feeling I got was a sort of hopeless, trapped feeling. "So, this is how I am. I'll never have any friends." And I have experienced something like that as well, from my father. He was kind of an oddball (perhaps Asperger's Syndrome) and while he had friends, he knew nothing of chit chat, easy-going banter, easy-going anything really. And one day, when I was about 14 (the year my parents divorced and two former friends tormented me in school) he said, "I'm afraid you are going to turn out like me, and always have trouble making friends." Oh God, I did not want to have that idea of myself! And it sure seemed like a good possibility that he might be right, since at the time my social life was horrendous. It made me feel terrible.

Well, maybe these examples from my past are coloring my reaction to your story. It seems like if you could share your own reaction to your mother's words, if you want, that might help me get past my own bias here and learn something new. I'm definitely biased here. Wow, it is no wonder I had trouble forming up a response at first!

Pennyplant

As I said before, I really value your perspective.  It really made me think, learn, and grow. 

What your mother did to you must have been so painful. It's so not right that she made you feel ashamed.  It must have been really hard, too, that your dad couldn't help you discover some more positive images of your social skills (at the very least, being a gentle and thoughtful person as you are goes a long way toward making friends).

My mom is an N.  Am I guessing correctly that your mom is an N, too?  If not, then you can probably disregard the rest of my post, because that is the assumption I am going on here. let me know if I am way off, and I will think on this some more.  I am trying to see the similarities and differences in our stories and put it together with what I know about Ns. I think two N traits come to mind.  1) N's try to shape their kids into what they want to be, themselves.
2) N's either praise the child or devalue the child, depending on how the child fulfills #1.

I think the same thing was going on in both our stories, but with different results.  Your mom wanted you to be popular, as she saw herself.  You did not live up to her warped expectations, so she tore you down and devalued you.  My mom saw herself as as so special that no one could possibly be so cool as to understand her and associate with her.  She saw heself as a maverick.  Very grandiose.  Because I had no friends, somehow she convinced herself that I must be a misunderstood maverick like her (I did not buy into this romanticized image; I just felt lonely and pathetic, even secretly failing at being like her, but I didn't dare tell her that!).  Because I lived up to her own self image in her eyes, I was a success.   I was one of the few times in my life that she felt I lived up to her expectations.  Even more depressing to me, beacuase I felt I didn't.

That said, I think what your mom did to you must have hurt more than what my mom did to me.  After all, approval is approval, no matter how warped it is.  And at least I got some approval that day.  Then again, I am not sure I would wish that kind of praise on anyone, either.  So confusing.  Not sure any of this makes sense. 

I still have a lot to learn.  Thanks again for your thoughtful thread.  There are so many rich ideas here!