Author Topic: What Made 'em That Way?  (Read 7086 times)

Stormchild

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Re: What Made 'em That Way?
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2006, 07:10:41 PM »
:oops: :oops: Oh my goodness. :oops: :oops:

(((mountainspring)))

you've brought me to tears... I feel as though someone had pronounced a heartfelt benediction over my entire life.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 07:51:50 PM by Stormchild »
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

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mountainspring

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Re: What Made 'em That Way?
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2006, 09:36:53 PM »
Hi Stormy ... I wanted to let you know you're appreciated.   :D

Teartracks... Thank you.  :oops:  Walking the path is easier here, isn't it. 


moonlight52

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Re: What Made 'em That Way?
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2006, 07:32:45 PM »
Stormchild    Are the dynamics the same with a physically abused child and one that was  sexually molested or is the principle
the same ? I do hope you have time to answer or if anyone knows. I do know I was physically abused but and did not do this to my children is there research on this?Thank you
moon
« Last Edit: June 14, 2006, 07:52:00 PM by moonlight52 »

Stormchild

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Re: What Made 'em That Way?
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2006, 08:57:45 PM »
I would consider emotional and physical abuse to have effects that are more similar to each other than to sexual abuse, but that's an oversimplification because sexual abuse almost never happens without emotional abuse, and often it includes physical abuse too, and physical abuse always includes emotional abuse, and emotional abuse may include a physical element.

The pleasure and resulting guilt that can be part of sexual molestation are a real complicating factor, moon. I marvel that anyone who is molested to any degree makes it into adulthood...

That whistleblowing link I put up comes from a sexual abuse survivor page... I wasn't looking for information on sexual abuse when I found it, I was doing a search to see if anyone had recognized the connection between abusive behavior at work and in families.

Here's the link I found to start with

http://incestabuse.about.com/cs/safetyplans1/a/Whistleblower.htm

Here's a site for survivors of childhood sexual abuse

http://www.aquietshame.com/

and another site with more links http://incestabuse.about.com/od/incestrecovery/

emotional abuse: http://www.thisisawar.com/AbuseEmotional.htm

and http://www.suite101.com/links.cfm/9128

domestic violence: http://www.uppitywomen.net/dmv2.html

and http://www.ericas-designs.com/rapehelp/dvhelp.html

and http://www.nyu.edu/cvr

and http://www.familyrefugecenter.com/leaving.html

I think the Net is saving lives and minds...
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

moonlight52

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Re: What Made 'em That Way?
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2006, 12:00:28 AM »
Stormchild , It has taken me a long time to be free of the belt in my fathers hand .I am thank ful I was not molested.But
I would have to say all the methods of abuse are just as hard as another .The important thing I believe thanks to my mom (not an N )and my
hubby we did stop the cycle.Also I was so afraid ,shy and timid .I remember as a child after an "event"  getting whipped my twin and I said as early as 8 or 9
we will never treat our children like this and I did not.Something I just never or could have thought of after it was done to me.
Also I thank you for the links , the emotional damage of my  dads rage was hard.I am grateful for this website.I feel
without it I would not have had the courage to break free.He called left messages and for the first time in my life I have
ignored him,I have said no , stop,this is my life.Gods blessings to you. Its a good thing to feel brave Stormy.
I darn well like my self for it.
Love Moon
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 07:10:16 PM by moonlight52 »

Stormchild

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Re: What Made 'em That Way?
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2006, 08:22:18 AM »
tracks,

dunno if this will help any because it's about me instead of someone else, but I only know my own inner workings for sure - and they're enough like everyone else's, in some important ways, that they might shed some light on some issues.

I used to have fulminating hissy fits - and I mean every word of that, there were lava craters left behind and some are still glowing - when I didn't get acknowledged here right away, especially when I posted about something that was hurting me terribly at the time. There's evidence aplenty right here on this board, a year ago. I left it here to remind myself what I'm capable of...

It stopped when I stopped needing acknowledgement in this place right away.

That stopped when I figured out why it was happening and what I could do about it that was constructive.

In my case, I joined the board at a time when we had many posters whose behavior on the board was suggestive of Borderline PD and that connection was not generally recognized. Some were clearly suffering terribly. Some were pretty obviously here more for attention than for genuine healing. There were repeating patterns: on thursday or friday one of these posters would announce that they were going to spend the weekend harming themselves and the entire board would immediately jump to attention with reassurance, support, validation, etc. that went on round the clock throughout the weekend - so that the BPD wasn't left to fend for themselves and find something constructive to do... [an unkind interpretation, but after three or four repetitions of the cycle, one that seemed to have some truth in it.]

Things just went round and round - in typical borderline fashion: threaten self-harm, get attention; threaten self-harm, get attention; but nothing ever improved for the self-harm threatener, it was clear from their responses that they weren't actually taking in what was being offered in the way of alternate responses and things to try. Eventually, after several cycles, people here stopped playing. They tired, and withdrew.

Meanwhile, though, people who were in honest pain and expressing it candidly, people who really needed the good things that were being lavished elsewhere in abundance, were twisting slowly, slowly in the wind.

I wasn't the only person to experience this, I just reacted much more phosphorescently to it.

Now. This wasn't just about me, and it wasn't just me. It just was. It was a combination of people meaning well and wanting to help others, who felt more comfortable dealing with one certain type of expressed pain, and reasonably enough believed the threats of self-harm the first half dozen times the game was played.

So they invested most of their time and energy in that, and didn't recognize right away that they were pouring attention into situations where it just vanished without a trace, zero net gain for the recipient, major net loss for the giver.

My timing was bad and I had insight but no patience. When I realized that I could use my insight to develop patience, but that I needed to find another place to do that, things started to work.

I joined discussion groups on more emotionally neutral, less 'invested' subjects - scientific areas I have a 'hobby interest' in, literature discussion groups - under other names - replied slowly at first - and waited patiently until someone took up or built on one of my posts. Eventually I reached the point where I could share something I thought was significant, on these non-emotionally charged subjects, detach from it, and simply be glad if someone else found value in it. If they reacted positively to me and especially if they responded in a way that allowed a conversation to develop, this was gravy.

I was learning to 'rein in' my expectations. It was good for me!

Being overlooked here when I was hurting and wanted attention, being negatively responded to when I 'acted out' about it [instead of comforted and supported as the self-harm threateners were at the time] may have been one of the best 'strange gifts' this board ever gave me, because it recreated a painful dynamic from my own childhood in which I was essentially punished by my FOO for being less dysfunctional than others in the family! And as an adult, I had other options. I analyzed the situation and took myself elsewhere to practice doing things differently... something I could never do as a child.

This whole experience taught me how lacking I was in true humility in a very important area of my heart. And that was a lesson I needed very much to learn. Can't say I'm as humble now as I ought to be - far from it - but I can see the 'proud flesh' more easily, I'm much less willing to make excuses for it or defend it, I'm less prone to jump on someone else in the heat of an emotional reaction without stopping to run it through my Karpman Screen first - some oobleck still gets past it, but a lot less does now. And that is all to the good.

One woman's partial journey. Story told for whatever it's worth.
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

reallyME

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Re: What Made 'em That Way?
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2006, 12:29:56 PM »
Stormchild,

I am a choleric temperament, which means I greatly struggle in the humility and patience departments.  I am 63% choleric and very little of any other temperament, so when I hear someone whining over a situation excessively, it bugs me, when I see someone doing nothing, it bugs me, and when I see someone who is so happy and peppy that they are acting goofy, after too much of it, it bugs me.  I am goal-oriented more than emotion-oriented.  Some people might think cholerics act N-like.  I don't know, maybe we can fall into that if we're not careful.

I like that you pointed out the things you did in this list, about being "punished for not being as dysfunctional as others in the family."  Sometimes, that's how I feel.  I'm really not very dysfunctional anymore and have overcome a LOT, but I still learn things by reading what the rest of you post, and that is why I'm still here.  We ALL can learn something from others, if we observe long enough, and with a fairly-open mind.

That's how I feel...as far as being ignored on this list, yes it's happened, but honestly, I'm quite over it now.

Laura

Hops

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Re: What Made 'em That Way?
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2006, 02:41:35 PM »
Stormy,
That was dazzlingly lucid.
I admire your mind and your writing so much, and the truths you tell.

Thank you.

Hops

lightofheart

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Re: What Made 'em That Way?
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2006, 07:23:15 PM »
Geez Louise, Ladies,

Ducked in for a quick read, now you've got me all teared up and just STUNNED by all the wisdom here. Hope you can forgive the excerpts...this whole thread is amazing, but these are the words/lessons that just stuck. One commonality I see: none of you seem to see yourselves or your strength/choices as exceptional--which is nothing if NOT exceptional. Hops and Stormy, the brave and selfless caretaking choices you made (which neither of you describe as 'sacrifices', though most people surely would). Jac and Moon, your lack of bitterness, and openness here, just inspire me. (Think I need to go soak my head just to digest all these blessings!).

Hops
Quote
I love my mother, and I have forgiven her, and I still have plenty of work to do on my self. I don't blame her any more for anything, and I feel compassion for her. I understand that she did the best she knew how to do. Then again, she was not violent, and I did not suffer the horrible abuse that many people here have. Just the deeply confusing messages and sort of twisted thinking. That...she couldn't help either. She built her way of surviving, just as I have.

Anyway, I think in a way that's "moving on." To not be fighting her N-ness any more, and to be at peace about her.

Along with all that...for my own sake, I've forgiven her what she couldn't help. I believe an N's manipulations are as instinctive as breathing.
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Moon
Quote
Well I have let myself feel the pain of the bad experiences and released them .They sadly can not.From what
I see they feel very little or on a very grade school shallow level its so sad so pitiful.All I know Is if you can get in touch with painful experiences really feel them you can get unstuck.BY GUM I am feeling sooooooooooooooooooo silky soooooooooooooooo
not sticky.Feel the pain, process it ,release it, get beyond it and you become your real self which is what GOD wanted
compassion love always the love This moon feels so much love for each of us.Day by day I will try to be strong.And be grateful just to feel love or sometimes hurt ,I will grow to be strong for those I love who need me I will try my best every day.
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Jac
Quote
in order to learn to detach from expectations and the like, we first have to SEARCH for the reasons behin the emotions; BECOME HONEST with ourselves about it; learn WHY we are behaving that way - FEEL those feelings, UNDERSTAND them, and then and only then will we have the power to DETACH.
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Stormy
Quote
I really think there is a time in most lives when some basic choice is made. I remember making the choice myself and it was at a young age - grade school. I was teased and tormented a lot, because I looked different [very Celtic coloring, curly hair] and acted different [books, good grades, quietish] in a neighborhood where the 'accepted' look was far from mine and caring about school marked you for life.

I remember thinking to myself how much it hurt me to be treated as I was treated.

I'm trying to learn to strike a balance now. To confront without fear, and to accept that sometimes that is going to be futile. That sometimes I'm going to be wrong in my decision to confront, that it may be driven by my own personal tastes more than by the real merits of the situation.

So much to learn...

But I do believe, in every life, on some level, if we are ever aware, that choice confronts us and must be made.

I wonder what I would be like, what my life would have been like, if I had chosen the other way.

eing overlooked here when I was hurting and wanted attention, being negatively responded to when I 'acted out' about it [instead of comforted and supported as the self-harm threateners were at the time] may have been one of the best 'strange gifts' this board ever gave me, because it recreated a painful dynamic from my own childhood in which I was essentially punished by my FOO for being less dysfunctional than others in the family! And as an adult, I had other options. I analyzed the situation and took myself elsewhere to practice doing things differently... something I could never do as a child.

This whole experience taught me how lacking I was in true humility in a very important area of my heart. And that was a lesson I needed very much to learn. Can't say I'm as humble now as I ought to be - far from it - but I can see the 'proud flesh' more easily, I'm much less willing to make excuses for it or defend it, I'm less prone to jump on someone else in the heat of an emotional reaction without stopping to run it through my Karpman Screen first - some oobleck still gets past it, but a lot less does now. And that is all to the good.

One woman's partial journey. Story told for whatever it's worth.
[/color]

imho, what it's worth is beyond price or words. ((((Stormy))))

If all folks could just process and believe the truth of this thread alone the world would probably burst with forgiveness. Here's to it!

 :D
LoH
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 08:32:28 PM by lightofheart »

Stormchild

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Re: What Made 'em That Way?
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2006, 07:32:31 PM »
((((((((everybody))))))))

 :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

Hopalong

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Re: What Made 'em That Way?
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2006, 10:25:13 PM »
Thanks, TT,
But I say you are a far finer figure of a caregiver than I am.

I truly didn't start out with inheritance on my mind one bit. Nowhere near. I nursed my Dad every weekend for six months through his final illness....driving four hours Friday night to get here, staying up with him, catching a nap Sat. then staying up all night again, driving back 4 hours Sunday night and working an insanely stressful job Mon-Friday. While caring for him, I promised him I would take good care of her once he was gone. (I also didn't resent what I did for him--for them both--for a moment.)

But after 8 years of caring for her...I did find I couldn't live with being toyed with about the house. I need a home.

I admire your sacrifices for your mother. I know if I had money I would give her more of it. Meanwhile, all I can give is care...and I do, and I feel all right about inheriting the house. My brother may be miffed, but I think on some gut level he too might recognize it's just.

Thanks for understanding...it's an odd role. I wish we had better solutions for our elders than one exhausted child (most often a daughter) or a warehouse. I know there's senior daycare...but Ma's too snooty to go mingle with "just anyone." Oy.

Hops
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 10:32:29 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: What Made 'em That Way?
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2006, 09:56:49 AM »
Thank you, TT.
The caregiving sisterhood is usually unnoticed...most of my same-age peers either would never consider living with their elderly mothers, or their mothers are gone, or they are in nursing homes.

I do feel in many ways that my own life is on "Pause" until hers is done.

It's good to be understood! (And I wish things would work out more fairly for you too. I'm sorry. It would be nice if your sisters would voluntarily recognize the justice in offering you a home to keep.)

(((TT)))

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."