What Made 'em That Way?

[gratitude28]

It seems like we have all been dancing around this subject lately... how did our N's get to be that way??? Here are my theories about my mother...

Mom portrays her childhood as tragic, but idyllic. Her father was a diabetic, and, according to her stories, had a strict, bland diet and never touched alcohol. Her mother loved him so deeply she never remarried.
The truth: Froma all other accounts, her father was a nasty drunk who beat her mother and the kids and even let my mother fall out of a moving car. My father has also alluded that her family members have told him this. These are the stories the family tells, but she shrugs them off and goes on as if she never heard them.

I truly believe my mother was sexually abused in some way. The reason I believe this is manyfold. She is crazy about sex... she sees it in everything and everyone and is repulsed by it. Once, I found pictures from when she and my father were first married and he had taken a picture of her topless, asleep. I laughed that I had found it and showed her. SHe had an absolute fit and started crying. I don't think there's anything sick about a young husband liking his wife's boobs. I also found out that she may have "swung" for a while when she and my dad were married... or at least that she wanted to. I have a realtive (brother of an aunt by marriage) who molested people when they were under his care as a doctor. SHE DEFENDED HIM. HSe said my aunt should have still supported him even though he did that. That is nuts... and something a person who had been abused would feel. Not long ago, she got a massage and the therapist told her that she had the feeling that my mother had been abused. My motehr had a fit and ranted about it afterwards and called the therapist crazy. I think a normal person would have just said, OK... not going to that weird one again... All in all, when it comes to sex, she gets so violently upset that something is off.

At any rate, more than just to brign all this out into the open... many of you have so astutely pointed out on this site that our parents (and perhaps SOs... sorry not my field so much) hate us for what they hate in themselves. SO when my mother is constantly assuming I am some sort of sex fiend (now that I am older, wish I could be sometimes  ), she is really seeing herself. When she idolizes my fatehr and sees him as the authoritarian, she is seeing her idea of her father. SHe adores my sister, who resembles her, because she can see the girl she wished she had been in her (I resemble my father... so lost that contest long ago...).

Still, even knowing these things, it hurts. We lost a person who should have been central in our lives. Not only is the person realized to be lacking in whatever emotions we assigned him/her, but he/she is now dissected by us until any semblance of what we knew to be our reality is broken.

On the bright side, we aren't crazy! 

Much love all. Look forward to hearing your theories.
Beth

[adrift]

.

SHE DEFENDED HIM. HSe said my aunt should have still supported him even though he did that. That is nuts... and something a person who had been abused would feel.

I don't understand.  Wouldn't someone who has been abused want the abuser to be punished? Or is it that they are so used to protecting their secret and therefore their own abuser that protecting the abuser is the only avenue they can understand?

[daylily guest]

Hi Beth,

I think it's impossible to know everything that goes into the making of another person--especially one's parent, whom one can never see objectively.  For my own part, I've come to the conclusion that since I can't really understand, I can't really judge.  I can only try to undo the damage in my own life, and see to it that I don't pass along any of the hurt.

Of course, everybody's journey is different.  I'm very interested in knowing why it's so important to you to construct a theory of how your mother "got that way."  How do you think it will help you?

Best,
daylily 

[gratitude28]

Adrift, I know that when I was in college, I was what I would call 'date raped.' (Now, I would never be such a wimp as to let someone take advantage of me in that way. I'd crush his nads!!!) At any rate, I know that for a long time afterwards, I wanted him to be attracted to me... to validate (I think) that he really did want me and it wasn't all about getting laid. (Sorry for all this crude language). At any rate, I think it's the same with my mother. She feels, "You should defend your family No Matter What." Would you stand up for someone NO MATTER WHAT? What if you found out that your brother was molesting babies? Or that he liked to strangle prostitutes? I just don't think I could defend that. I really think only someone who is trying to justify something would. Does that make any sense?????

[gratitude28]

hmmm... interesting thought daylily.

Yes, I do just want to change the way I am and how I react (or at least I am forcing myslef to believe that). I think at first when I found out about this I wanted to believe (badly) that it wasn't true. Maybe I still do.

I also think that it just feels like the puzzle pieces are falling into place in a way. See, I blamed myself for being so many different things for so long and now I see why.

Oops, I think I am getting away from the subject. I think I need to understand WHY because I can't bear the thought that she didn't (and really mostly doesn't) like or love me or my children. She makes so many comments towards me about my sexuality, how I look, whether people are attracted to me, etc. But I realize now that was HER view, not anyone else's. Also, she doesn't do this to my sister. I guess I just want to know WHY am I the one she doesn't like?????? God, don't I sound whny? I'm sorry. That hurt to write.

[Hopalong]

Beth,
Same here. A cousin outed my mother's family secret, that her father (a preacher) had abused his daughters, most of all my aunt, the middle child (she slept on a cot on a landing). My mother was very put out when she realized my cousin had told me about it, and my mother said to me, "He only tried it with me once, and I said stop it. Stop it or I'll tell Mother." Then, my mother went on to spin the story that she had "saved" her siblings from his molestation by telling her mother. Yet, my cousin says her mother (the middle daughter) had been depressed her entire life, even in a hospital, and was molested for years.

To this day I don't know whether my mother was abused or succeeded in warning him off. But she is N, and she is very weird about sexuality. She does not intentionally lie, so I just don't know. I hope she is able to tell the truth, because it's horrible to think of what may have happened. Still, this was the atmosphere she grew up in, whether she was directly molested herself or not. I am sure it wrecked her psyche, because she did love her father, who apparently wept and prayed and carried on because he felt guilty.

Tragic, horrible story. Yet although my mother seldom speaks of her parents, when she does, she's deeply respectful of their memory.

So that's what I think made her N.

Hops

[gratitude28]

Hi tears,
You are right in a way. For me, this knowledge is somewhat new... I only found out about all this a few months ago.
Hmm... so does a person just get to the point of saying, "Oh well... whatever," and that solves it?
I think my main goal is to be able to function with my parents without assuming the guilt and embarrassment I always have around them and being able to truly see myself as separate from them. I also want to be able to calmly tell my mother when she is being mean to me. I ahev never been good at that. I just ignore it and get hurt.

So, what are our goals here???????? Awesome question teartracks. Also, I think somepeople, like maybe portia, have assimilated and moved on and are good examples to us. I also think that you can't do this until you understand the situation. So I don't feel bad for putting out what I need to resolve unless others feel it is not helping them or in some way detrimental to our goals.

Beth

[Hopalong]

Hi TT,
I can tell you that my mom no longer hooks me. She said something incorrect about me in front of my D and my D started defending me and I just felt completely calm, and explained to my D that these remarks don't affect me any more. And I realize they don't.

I love my mother, and I have forgiven her, and I still have plenty of work to do on my self. I don't blame her any more for anything, and I feel compassion for her. I understand that she did the best she knew how to do. Then again, she was not violent, and I did not suffer the horrible abuse that many people here have. Just the deeply confusing messages and sort of twisted thinking. That...she couldn't help either. She built her way of surviving, just as I have.

Anyway, I think in a way that's "moving on." To not be fighting her N-ness any more, and to be at peace about her.

TT, how about starting a thread for times of stength and peace, when the pain/upset is stilled? Would sharing those moments be helpful to you?

Hops

[reallyME]

gratitude, you answered your own question, so I wanted to post your own answer in order for you to be able to see it:

You asked this: Also, she doesn't do this to my sister. I guess I just want to know WHY am I the one she doesn't like??????

but earlier in your post, you gave the answer to it: 

 SHe adores my sister, who resembles her, because she can see the girl she wished she had been in her (I resemble my father... so lost that contest long ago...).

I wasnt' sure if you realized you have an answered rather than an unanswered question in this.

~RM

[adrift]

I guess I just want to know WHY am I the one she doesn't like?????? God, don't I sound whny? I'm sorry. That hurt to write.

You aren't whiny, and I totally understand the need to know why.  I've been searching the WHY for years now, and learning about  events in my parent's lives has helped me to a degree.    Are you sure it's that she doesn't like you or is it that she is jealous of you?  Perhaps she doesn't have the ability to love more than one person at a time and if your mother is an N, and your sister is like her, then your mom is loving herself through loving your sister.  Kinda like loving yourself in the mirror.

Adrift

[mountainspring]

Hops.... you said

I can tell you that my mom no longer hooks me.

How did you get to the place where you were no longer hooked.  Was it finding out the whys, researching N's, or something else.  I'd like to be unhooked, but sometimes her current actions still trigger me.

Beth - my mothers father was very distant, gruff, and cold, even with his grandchildren.  And my mother has issues with sexuality that seems to be the same as what you and Hops were describing.  It seems their childhoods may have been alike in alot of ways.  You said your mother loves your sister but couldn't love you.  Do you really think she loves her?  Maybe she's using her?  I can't think of anyone that my mother truly loves, I see no evidence that she even loves my dad, but plenty that she uses him.

[Hops]

Hi MS,
I don't think feeling "unhooked" about my Mom was an achievement on my part, as much as a result of time and exposure. I've been living with her and caring for her for 8 years. For most of that time, it was a battle. She charged me rent (while I'm fetching trays and trimming her toenails) and made clear she felt entitled to my care since that's "just what daughters do", and meanwhile dangled our home in front of my nose...kept mentioning how I'd have to "buy out my brother's half" in order to stay. After several years of this, my resentment grew (my brother just visits once or twice a year, but he's the Pope). Eventually, I told her it wasn't fair (urged her to leave me just the empty building, and him all the contents to auction--it's not 50/50, but it's fair)...and she finally decided she agreed with me. Another moment was that a while ago I blew my stack when she once again "punished" me by manipulating him (got him to leap in the car on his way to "the rescue" when the real issue was that she didn't want me to go out, and I took care of her, made sure she was safe, and went out anyway). He was an abusive bully to me throughout my childhood, and she never protected me. So.....when I blew up, I let her have it. Told her I was his victim, and how dare she (top of my lungs) call him in like the cavalry after all I'd been doing, blah, blah. Then I told her it no longer mattered to me about the house, it was all a mistake, and if she didn't turn him around right now, I was leaving. I had never raged at her like that before, and it stopped her. She turned him around, and they both backed off.

Ever since, she's been more appreciative and cooperative. She doesn't fight me any more, and she expresses appreciation. And we are peaceful in the house. I actually feel more love for her, and she is kinder to me. There is a part of her that does love me--as much as she is able to-- and in that, I'm lucky. I know it's been mostly twisted, but as she comes down to the wire (she's 95), I see her being sort of becoming emotionally simpler. Less manipulative, and I do see some genuine concern for my wellbeing. I don't think I would ever have believed that was real, though, unless I'd been living with her for so long now that the subtle changes are detectable. (She's done things recently like say, thank you for being so patient about repeating things because of my hearing, you've never made me feel badly about that. Thank you for taking such good care of me. Thank you for this, and that...) I always tell her you're welcome, and now I can mean it. Resentment's gone.

She's in the grace period of her life, now, so I'm committed to dealing with her with as much grace as I can summon. That one blowup was terrible (guilt) but cleansing, and it released a lifetime's hurt and anger. So...I don't feel angry any more. She may have been the dominant N for all my life, but now she's a frail old woman. Her dependency has made her gentler.

Along with all that...for my own sake, I've forgiven her what she couldn't help. I believe an N's manipulations are as instinctive as breathing. And maybe now that she knows she found my limit, she won't test it again. (My daughter still gets very indignant about the way my mother is, and it causes her turmoil. I just commiserate, but I don't join her in it.)

In the last year and a half my mother's had a cancerous breast removed and had bowel surgery, after which she had to be in a nursing home for almost a month of arduous PT. Her endurance and life force are amazing. I have to admire that side of her.

(And if I forgot to, she'd remind me of her latest compliments!)

Hops

[pennyplant]

Hops,

The way things have evolved with your mother--it's almost the un-making of an N.  I know she is still N.  But that she was able to mellow at all and you were able to forgive.  Very beautiful.

Probably it is your openness and also your determination that makes it possible.  Not all daughters do what you have done for her.  She may never realize just how fortunate she is.  But she seems to have gained some appreciation for you.

This was nice to read.

Pennyplant

[adrift]

Hops,

 You are a way better person than me.  There's no way I'd be there taking care of her.  I resented everything I did for my mother in her last days--well, almost everything.  There were a few times I had some compassion for her, but not many.  It was a relief when she died.  I didn't really care about my dad either, although his disappointment in me has taken root and grown like a cancer.   I had to be so damn tough growing up that I learned to not feel and to build walls and to hate.  Oh the hatred I had for my mother.  Then on other posts on this forum you'll read me say how I can kind of forgiver her now.  It's funny how my feelings toward them vascillate. I don't hate her now that I understand her and her life better.

Hops, I"m glad for you that you've been able to come full circle, or almost a full circle, with your mom.  You're all the better for it. 

Adrift

[reallyME]

ok, I guess my post wasn't worth commenting on.  HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO AM I EVEN HERE TODAY???? I ALREADY SAID SHE ANSWERED HER OWN QUESTION...did anyone SEE that or am I fantasizing one or the other of her sentences?

~RM