abusive communities

[mum]

Thanks, Hoppy, A few years back I would not thank you, I would disagree with you. I would tell you I am disorganized and scattered, and although I am all those things on the "outside", on the inside I am just fine with who I am. And it was hard won.
Your description of your church "family" describes exactly why I so look forward to moving back "home" soon, to my huge family and circle of friends.  I will miss my colleagues, but no doubt will find new work friends...but the connected ones have always been my siblings, really.

[mum]

unfortunately, Jacmac, I am as serious as a heart attack!
I cannot even begin to tell you how many mothers of my students have had plastic surgery...
Many of them ARE the idle rich.  Trophy wives with no brains or self concept. We call them the stepford wives. Of course there are plenty of great, down to earth parents, but in this "wanna be L. A." area, "reality" shows like "the Swan" and "Extreme Makeover" are not a shock at all. These people live it.
I find it interesting that you should have come to the opinions you have from the culture you come from and yet:
my ex's mother truly thinks I am a total B**** for leaving her son over something like cheating (which of course was my fault...."had I kept him happy, he would not have strayed!!"). Not too far a stretch from what you are telling me.
And the stories we hear about female Chinese babies being left....as the quota for children must be kept to, and boys are so much more useful and all...a sad but accepted reality for rural China, I understand.
OK< THAT"S what's wrong with the world!!! The whole man preferred crap......Don't get me started.....

[Portia]

Write:
I think in my case I've just given up and become a recluse!
It is hard work! Be a recluse when you want to, and not when you don’t?

But that's ok, maybe in my 40s I shall rise like a phoenix from the ashes...!!!
Yeah! I think it’s only possible once you have reached your 40s. Not usually possible before that (too busy doing and getting)?

When we first moved here I volunteered at school- for about 3 weeks until I'd heard enough gossip and back-stabbing to realise the women I was talking to might sit in church every week, but they weren't very Christian.
At least I am getting good at spotting toxic environments now, and leaving them quickly!
If you can’t change them …. (don’t join them)! Sorry write.  So many people are so childlike. If the women were like that, what chance for the children I wonder.

I couldn’t find that quotation (was hoping you knew it). So here are some others.

The natural tendency of the individual in a group is to forfeit his or her ethical judgment to the leader, and that this tendency should be resisted.  M. Scott Peck

"The human psyche has two great sicknesses: the urge to carry vendetta across generations, and the tendency to fasten group labels on people rather than see them as individuals." Richard Dawkins


Surrounded:
I think...therefore, I AM------ALONE.       Better stop now, I am getting weird.

Not at all!!! I think therefore I am is my life code! And we are all alone in our heads. That’s just a fact….I think…I hope! Imagine if we weren’t. Scary.

Not weird at all. Perfectly clear and sane to me. That may not be such a comfort to you though!

Mum and Hop

I was chatting to my total Extravert stepmum on the phone. She said:

“So I went to this Learn Italian group and the people were so boring! The lecturer was hopeless….”
I said: “But if you want to learn Italian, how about taping the BBC learning zone programmes? They’re great for languages.” And she answered…..

“But I don’t want to learn Italian! I want to meet people!”
 
(Sound of my brain about to explode in non-comprehending processing loop.)

That really showed me the innate difference between introverts and extraverts. I mean…where is the Objective or Achievement in ‘meeting people’????? As opposed to learning Italian??? Hahaha! Would you believe the two of us get on like a house on fire too? Except she likes to talk for the heck of it whereas I like to get to new theories and conclusions. She’s probably a Perceiver too, not a fat Judger like me. Hmm, could well be.

Jac
When my aunt heard I had left my children's father because he cheated on me, her response was, You left him for THAT?

Well, my Dad I guess has a few patriarchal beliefs. When a bloke cheated on me, he suggested that some men do these things and maybe I should give him another chance. So basically men are allowed to cheat but if women make decisions for themselves they’re told to reconsider? Give me a break. 

It’s worse in some ways when other women collude to uphold the patriarchal nonsense. It’s like self-hatred?

Great thread Movinon! 

[Portia]

Jac, holy moley - whatever that expression means, but - wow. You gotta get this stuff out.

I know now it reminds me of my mother, and what I view to be her betrayal of me with my father

It WAS a betrayal if your needs were treated as second to your father’s. That’s what I think. If women have kids, then the kids become number one. But lots of women have children and are little more than children themselves. So – it’s not easy and I couldn’t legislate for it. Except to have licences to have children! But if you felt betrayed by your mother, then you were betrayed. Your experience is what counts.

but I am yet and still amazed that woman will rip each other to shreds over a man. 

The female of the species….. can be pretty dumb at times. Primitive. It’s all about competition and survival of individual genes. Sod sisterhood! Haha. Some so-called feminists really get up my nose, especially those who attack other women and get all flirty and/or competitive with men. I’m talking about Germaine Greer!

I remember when I was involved with this married man, ........Well, I am a spiritual person, and I know this is happening for a reason.  I hope that we can all grow and mature from this."

The next day she filed a police report against me for harassment.

I love the paragraph break before the killer line!!! Love it! If you hadn’t written it so well, it wouldn’t funny. But you make it like dead-pan tragic-comedy. That's talent.

But it’s not funny I know. I had an affair with a married man. The women in this scenario will often go after the ‘other woman’ instead of facing the real source of their pain/anger/loss of pride/whatever. It’s the easy option. My H went for the ‘other man’ instead of me! I kept asking him – why not attack me instead? I’m the one who’s at fault here. Weird non-coping strategies. Very primitive stuff.

Do you think your mom blamed you for what your dad did to you? Is that how it felt to you? I felt to blame for all my parents’ crap.

And about kids. I don’t have any. But I do feel almost over-zealously committed (in my mind) to child protection. And I wonder if I think things are worse than they really are? Then I look around me and think, nope, they really are that bad. We need people to stand up for children and their rights because they can’t do it for themselves.

PS. "Well, I am a spiritual person, and I know this is happening for a reason.  I hope that we can all grow and mature from this."
BULLSHIT and BOLLOCKS!!!!!  Hahahahahaha   hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Some people. Some things just call out for expletives I'm afraid.

[Portia]

back again ...I was a bit quick there...then I saw this little nugget:

She confessed that she always felt that her father went out of his way to make her illegitimate sister feel secure and happy, and she, consequently felt neglected.

haha! She admitted that she's married her father (so to speak)? And that if she can bring hubby back to heel, she'll be defeating her father and getting the attention she wanted? And in getting that police report in....she was getting back at her sister....making the illegitimate what it should be - illegal, putting it in the hands of the police...so she can have daddy all to herself. Good riddance.

Do you feel now - thank goodness that's as close as you got to that kind of very sick relationship?

[write]

I've only had one short horrible experience but I believe some men want to set up an unhealthy competition between women in their lives ( maybe it's not gender specific either ) and get the women to fight it out on their behalf whilst mr conlict-avoidance ( for himself at least ) watches from the sidelines.

[Sela]

Hi all:

I'm rushing around today like a chicken with her head cut off.  Just time to read and post back to here re what you wrote Portia:

Reacting instead of pondering.

Yep.  I do that too.  Who doesn't?  Then if we realize we've made an error.....what next?

Hahahahahahaha!  Laughing at me now!!  Didn't even notice that you hadn't logged in!

"Pay attention will ya!!!"

What caused you to think of deleting posts?

Well......I guess I was projecting.  I was thinking....if I had posted what you posted, I might have just deleted it, once I'd seen my error.  That's why it struck me as very adult and brave of you to.....use the mistake as a bit of sharing.....of learning...expressing.  Admitting the mistake.  Sharing / expressing of it and the learning of laughing, rather than......well.........you know about those little voices that want to do something else eh?

Like beat oneself up.   Tell onself off.  Press delete.

Hahahahaha again!  Didn't realize 40 min had gone by before you reposted.  Didn't look at the time/date myself!!  Same mistake!!  I didn't learn!!  I need repetition!  I have to learn by doing, I guess.  Or something??

You know me so well. You know all the crap attached to two little posts.

Thank you ((((((Sela))))))

Ya.  I'm learning all the time too but not by your mistakes!!  Have to make my own eh?  Thanks for the hug!!  It feels good. 

Especially when I read some of the rest of the stuff in this thread!

The abuse!!  It's abuse to treat women as lesser human beings!!     The abusive cultures!!  (and some neighbourhoods/places).

Ofcourse.....those cultures(etc) don't consider this stuff abusive eh?  Except for those who are being abused!!  The women!!    Poor women.  I feel so sorry for them.  How do you begin to effect change in a culture (etc)??

Women have done it!  A few at a time!  But it's a huge big large massive struggle!!  Takes years and years!

And talk about courage!!

I'm praying for those women today.  I hope with all of my heart that little changes will start to happen......for the good.....for their good.

My mother always said:  "It's a man's world.  We've made some changes but it's still a man's world".

Right again, if you ask me.  Just because we can vote and work and wear pants....doesn't make it all fair.  And in some cultures......basic respect is still completely absent.  Those women are still chattels.......slaves........toys.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((those women)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Even though they'll never know it.   A cyber hug they'll never see or feel.  From one person to another.

Not a toy person. Just a person.

Sela

[movinon]

Portia,

Glad I dug this one up from the archives!

Movinon

[Portia]

Sela
And in some cultures......basic respect is still completely absent.  Those women are still chattels.......slaves........toys.
Yep. And their daughters are sold to pay off the debt from the lower opium crop this year, last year, constant debt. Sold to whom, for what? Sold at ages when they are children, and so on. But of course young boys are also stolen to be made into brutal killers.
On the other hand, information and knowledge is now travelling around the globe faster and with less control (was Google right to offer a censored search to China? I guess it’s better than just saying ‘no’). Charities are amongst those daughters and sons, trying their best. There is hope! Mind you, we talk about being abusive to each other, what about our attitude to our only home? Big problems to sort out! I hope we do sort them out.
((((((Sela))))))

Movinon
Glad I dug this one up from the archives!
I’m really glad too, for several reasons. You helped me. Thank you.

Jacmac
((((((Jacmac))))))
You’ve really got me thinking (thank you). I’m posting but have lots more to say, coming up soon. Wanted to break this one up because it’s so long.

she didn't stay with men who cheated on her, but she did stay with my father, who abused her physically for years, and was still intimate with him even after he molested me. 

She stayed with him because….he didn’t “cheat” on her? Other than by predating sexually on his daughter. So that was okay then. Pass me a sick bag.

She likes to say she doesn't understand women today because she'd leave a man in a heartbeat that didn't respect her

Sooo she believes that being beaten up and living with incest and child abuse is respect. Perhaps because the dirty washing stays inside the home? Perhaps the worst thing for your mom is being humiliated and shamed by the outside world. Okay I’m getting it.

Is that why you've never been married?
just to chat! I’ve never been married either. Didn’t see the point. It’s a legal contract and I haven’t seen a need for any legal contract with a man. If I did I think I'd go the legal route and have some document drawn up. Marriage is primarily about legal stuff, not love or respect. Apart from all the social conventions, social cohesion through the ‘family’ and so on. Love and respect happen between people, not because of some socially and legally sanctioned event. Shut up P. okay.

I thought I was the only one that thought this way.  I always think about that!!!!  Like my tenant upstairs and her infintile behavior, I think to myself, "My God, how can the children learn to deal with conflict in a mature way if their mother is a big baby?"
I think you think this way because (1) you naturally identify and empathise with children and (2) you’re a deeply good-hearted and thoughtful person and maybe there’s a (3) in perhaps it shows some hope for the future, belief in children, wanting to see beyond the immediate. ? what do you think?

but I am yet and still amazed that woman will rip each other to shreds over a man.

Yeah…..I now wonder which man they’re fighting over? I’ll never see this situation in the same light again! Women all competing for Daddy’s attention or women beating their sisters or mothers up? Wouldn’t it be odd if we could see all the people (in their heads), all the parents etc involved in the fighting? Mass riot!

she wouldn't even accept that he had lied to me about being married,

you didn’t even know he was married! Do you know how that exonerates you completely? (I knew mine was married! Tsk tsk what the heck was I up to? Well he did remind me devastatingly of my father. True. And weird.)

I thought the news that he had said she was dead would devastate her

It would have if she could have allowed herself to believe you. But we believe what we want to believe, or I guess, what we can bear to believe at any given time. I guess she couldn’t cope with that. Denial is a good preservation mechanism. After all she sees this guy as her Dad and her Dad can’t want her dead. Serious stuff.

If we were to work out, and things went well with us, would you consider moving in here with me (into his home ) and the children?  I always think he had some heinous plans to get rid of her.

Did you meet his kids? Was any of what he said ever possible of happening? Or was he just talking hot-air? Maybe it was pure BS and if you’d have said yes, when, etc he would have run like hell?

she couldn't believe my lack of integrity
She saw you as wholly bad. She was unhinged! Nuts!

[Portia]

Jac, there's so much here. Read and reply as and when, take it in chunks, whatever. I'll just get out my stuff and leave it okay?

But there's real fear here.
What’s the fear about?............?

months later I was arrested and spent the night in jail?  This woman went to the precinct in tears.  TEARS!  She came in with phone records of the calls that I was making to her husband at their home
So they arrested you? Where were you at the time, at home, work? Trying to see the impact on you here.

we (she and I) spent half the night at the precinct battling it out.

How did this go….were you in an interview room together? Were the cops intervening between you?

Those events are incredible! So she schemes and gets her ‘evidence’ and works away in the background for months until she believes she has enough to put you away? Then she acts (and I mean like an actor), puts on the tears, pulls off her stunt. Revenge on her sister, big time (not that you’d know that, in the midst of this pile of dung).

She told them that she didn't care if he slept with me,
Ditto – the one I knew told me that. Sex actually means very little in some scenarios it seems. There’s too much else at stake. Sex is nothing by comparison.

I couldn't believe it!   I was in absolute complete shock.
I’m trying to imagine that happening to me. I’d like to think I’d be calm, logical and know my rights. But I’d probably go completely ape. Or maybe just zone out. I’d be worried that my nightmare of being wrongly accused, or of the world being taken over by malicious aliens had come true. Flip out time.

Never had they arrested this man, even though they were called many times because he wouldn't leave me alone.
He was harassing you prior to this? And you’d reported him? And they still locked you up for the night???
I was told, "Well, you can't blame a man for trying can't you" and other nonsense.
This makes me feel sick.

I was called a slut and fast and promiscuous by my mother when I didn't even know what sex really was
Sorry Jac. This happens to so many women. Sins of the mothers being visited on the children. All the head-crap being projected onto you. I’m sorry. How old were you?

my family still enjoys a wonderful relationship with him while they can barely tolerate my presence at all.
I wonder how you can tolerate them Jac. Especially him, but more, your mother?

I wanted her so much to acknowledge and see my pain - it seemed to mean the world to me if she would.
Again I’m sorry, this is so raw it sounds. It’s odd but the wife of the bloke I saw, she had a weird effect on me too. Phoned me up in rage and had a real go at me and accused me of not being able to keep away from her H. Again, totally exonerating him. Said that she didn’t care if I slept with him but she would not tolerate it interfering with her life! I.e. if she wasn’t bothered by it, she would ignore it…..hmmm….makes me wonder now about her background. I’m glad they didn’t have kids. Anyway, yes, that conversation with her really affected me, it really stabbed away in my stomach. Me to blame. All my fault.
more......

[Portia]

they treated me as they would treat their own mistress if she was in the precinct with their own wives.  They punished me to try to silence and shame me.
That’s definitely a possibility. Keeping the peace! Did they silence you that night? Or did you have a ‘go’ at them? I guess you were in so much shock that you were probably near dumb?

I was the Jezebel, and she was Mother Theresa.
Maybe they thought she had several screws loose and locked you up for your own protection that night? Maybe they thought if they didn’t do that she might be a real danger to you? Maybe they had a brain between them? Maybe I’m being just a little too optimistic there. On the other hand, they’ve been presented with a ‘domestic situation’ (which I believe they really don’t like getting involved with) and they acted in a way they saw as practical? Do what the crazy old bag wants (lock you up), let you out, no charges. Maybe they thought that was the best practical option at the time, for all concerned?

I’d have liked to have seen them go collect the husband, drag him there in his PJs and locked him up. It might’ve had positive psychological effects (daddy’s in the wrong here on both counts). But cops aren’t paid to do that. They aren’t paid to lock up innocent people either (that’s you). Why do you think they locked you up that night? It was probably simply expedient for them. Sod what you thought or felt. I bet no-one talked to you? Made sure you were okay? How was it?

Not able to see Daddy as being wrong, huh?  That's what a male dominated society does to us, it makes us unable to lay the blame at the feet of the man, where it belongs.

In this case most definitely yes. I’d extend it to say never being able to see mommy or daddy being wrong. It’s always the kids’ fault. Children are sacrificed for the parents. Marriage is part of that deal to an extent. Marriages are the family unit and so signify the family home, mommy and daddy. Nobody wants to see (their idealised) mommy and daddy split up.

Except it was my crime, and not her husbands, though

What was the ‘crime’? Phoning someone isn’t a crime. She was trying to prove harassment – but did she prove it against you? Did they bring a case against you? Or did they let you out the next day without anything formal – what happened? Because I agree with you, adultery is a (sort-of) crime (a pretty serious crime in some countries, and yes, of course, women are killed for it but men are not! Women are killed for bringing dishonour on the family! Damn that gets me going. Sorry.)…..yeah adultery is pretty mean, breaking the marriage contract. But he did it, not you. The crime was his.

Question Jac, I remember you were having therapy at some point. Are you now and if so have you been through this with him/her? Or did you go through it? It was a huge repeat trauma obviously. Big important stuff I feel.

It is tragically funny.
I meant I loved the way you actually wrote it out. You’re a great writer!

I cower here in the corner and await the Scarlet letter that will be placed along side of my name (Sigh)

Not sure I understand what the Scarlet letter is (Scarlet Woman?) but how about a scarlet word:

 Jacmac INNOCENT

[Sela as guest]

He even asked me if I could testify on his behalf.   I told him that the only way they could get me to the court is if they subpoena me.  

The evil part of me thinks I might have said:

"Sure"

and then.....gone to court and been shameless.....not only confessing to the affair, butl giving a detailed account of how awful the sex was - graphically!!!

Just a quick one Jac....on my way out.

So, so, so sorry for all you've been through and very, very glad to hear that the sweet, sensitive, compassionate person......you ........has thrived and survived.

((((((((((((Jacmac)))))))))))

Sela

[Hopalong]

Jac,
I'm sorry too. What a horrible painful rotten mess. You're NOT a bad person. You had a very bad experience because you had a lot of wounds that set you up perfectly for it.

It's wonderful that you made the connection between your grief over not being understood by this man's wife...that it was actually your grief over your own mother's lack of love, understanding and protection for you.

One little bell that rang for me, I wonder if it might make any sense to you. I remember when you were talking about the frustrating constant struggle to be heard by your uncooperative tenant, and how you would try over and over and over to contact or communciate with her in various ways.

When you mentioned the wife bringing a whole pile of phone records to the police station, I wonder if the same kind of urgent need to be heard by him was behind all those calls? If there were really a LOT of calls to his house, I can possibly imagine, just a little, how that might have seemed to strangers, or to the police...

Kind of a boundary thing. Meaning even if you are RIGHT that it's not fair that the wife did not understand your point of view, perhaps if there was a tremendous number or volume of calls you placed to their house (I know, you weren't calling to speak to her)...but I can kind of see how that may have put you in a bad light.

I'm not talking about your inner real experience of the situation--since I'm lucky to have been able to imagine in from your side, on the basis of your life experience that you've shared here, that's why I feell as though I can understand what was driving you, and why I TOTALLY agree with Sela that you, Jac, are INNOCENT.

You are an innocent human being.

I just was thinking that maybe outside that essence of goodness (that means, you are a very good human being)--in an external way, in the way society would see it from outside without knowing you, the repeated calls might have worked against you. (I am so sorry they locked you up!!!!!)

Am I making any sense?

(((((((((Jac))))))))))))

Hopalong

[mudpuppy]

Hi Portia,

Marriage is primarily about legal stuff, not love or respect.

I understand if you have a different view of marriage than me but, you seem to be stating what marriage is about for everyone not just yourself.
I didn't marry my wife because of 'legal stuff'. I married her precisely because I love and respect her, and that is primarily and nearly exclusively what our marriage is about.

mud

[Hopalong]

Oh brother. I can see it, Jac:

When I asked, "So why am I here, trying to get him to leave me alone?"  Their response was:  "Oh, that's simple, because you want revenge."  I think it was even said, "You should have never messed around with him after you learned he was married; you should have left him alone."  A lot of shaming and I think personally, projection ( I watched the married arresting officer whispering sweet nothing in his partners ear, as she feigned shooing him away although I could see in her face she really liked the attention).

This gets my inner feminist all pissed off again. I am so sorry you were blamed in such a disproportionate way. You're right, it wasn't just a "black and white, right and wrong" situation...it was very complex and there were layers on top of layers of need and boundary and honesty and LACK OF.

Good for you for surviving it all with your wits and your insight intact and still chugging...

Respectfully,
Hops