Finally met b/f's psychiatrist... not sure about her help

[penelope]

Hi guys,

This subject is one that touches me on a very deep and personal level.

I finally got a chance to meet my b/f's (we live together, going on 2 years now) psychiatrist.

I don't know how I feel about her.  On the one hand, I feel she is probably very good for my b/f, as she is currently persuing her PhD in medications to treat anxiety/depression, so she's very scientific and she knows a lot about meds...  On the other hand, I can't shake the nagging feeling that she's a least somewhat off base with his treatment.

Here's why:

1.  She keeps insisting that at the dosage my b/f is on (37.5 mg of Effexor), he should not be having any benefit at all for his anxiety/depression, as the dose is too low to be doing anything.  I live with him, and the 3? times he's gone off the medicine, I've seen a dramatic and unmistakable change in his mood - and not a positive one.  So there is no doubt in my mind it's doing something.  He feels the same way (independently), as he keeps saying that he needs the medicine to combat stress.  He does stress out, mostly due to work pressure, and has gone back on the medication each time she's tried to wean him off it (he can take mine as I'm on the same medicine).  He ends up calling her up and asking her to refill his prescription -  this time I believe she asked to meet with him before doing so (but I need to confirm this with him - he doesn't always tell me the whole story).

2.  This is probably his third (maybe more) appointment with her in the last year that he's insisted he doesn't want to go off the medication/dosage he's on, as he can tell there's a change when he goes off it.  Again, she told him: here's what we're going to do - I want you to stop taking the medicine for 3 months in this meeting.  She told him, she didn't suggest.  It was a little weird.

3.  He invited me to the meeting, so I sat in (and thus met her) - it was only supposed to be a 15 min med checkup, so there wasn't really time to therapeutize, but I did get a few comments/opinions in, which she disregarded, I felt (no response from her to any of my comments, basically I felt ignored).  For example, since she asked me, I told her about his sleeping habits (she feels he has a sleeping disorder, and the reason he feels tired often is due to this, and that this is likely controlling his moods more than anything else).  I also piped in when she asked him "this is your only occurrence, right?" (of anxiety); he's worked for 10 years since graduating college with his Masters, and I said - "no, he also had anxiety in college-"  He also had to remind her that his Dad has PTSD (hello?), and her only response to this was the question:  so you were sometimes afraid of your Dad's responses?  B/F said: No, I wasn't afraid...(but he always does this, he immediately denies things, but if you probe him, he'll admit more - he's sort of a macho guy, afterall).

4.  My b/f seems not to mind all this, but after 2 (I believe) years of seeing this therapist, I think she should remember some basic things about him - Like that his dad suffers from PTSD. So I'm questioning a) whether he's told her everything, and b) whether she really remembers all the important facts.  The Dad with PTSD is MAJOR.  I think.  What do you all think?

5.  I think to do him justice, she should be exploring this and his feelings more in psychotherapy, not just relying on the drugs to combat his anxiety.  In my travels, I've read this is the best scenario for success, using a combination of psychotherapy and meds, to reframe those past events into positive ones.  I'm surprised they've talked in depth about so little.  Also, we've had major fights since we started seeing one another, and I'm not sure he's even discussed any of these with her.  I tell my T everything (when I can get around to it).  I keep asking him: so, when are you going to have your next Hour long appointment with "Kathy."  I think you should talk about this with her...

6.  He seems willing, even volunteers to come to my T sessions with my Therapist.  I wonder if he likes her better for the psychotherapy?


Am I way off base here?  Is she N or what or am I just being paranoid?  I care deeply about his mental health, and I know I'm responding a bit codependently as well, which makes me cringe a little.  What would be an appropriate response for me?

I need to try to approach my b/f about my concerns, but I'm very afraid he'll see it as a challenge as he really likes her.  And I can understand why, because when he was feeling really bad, she "saved" him, really.  It was right after his previous g/f of 10 years left him and he was feeling quite anxious and abandoned.  He sort of had a nervous breakdown.  The fact that he met me has probably had a lot to do with him feeling better, but I'm afraid the issues with his parents (which are the main ones to address) haven't even been touched on.   

pb

[Hopalong]

Ooof. I am with you on #4, but also on the codependency, I'm afraid.
(Am one. Or have been. Pot calling kettle: HI Kettle!)

It is very frustrating to have an unfocused OR rigid T.

I don't fathom why she's insistent about denying him a therapeutic dose of Effexor.
I have taken it.

I happen to respond to much lower doses of drugs than many. And it irritates me no end when some Ts or doctors know more than a person does himself about his own body and psyche.

But does he feel assertive enough himself to trust his own perceptions? Or is he into obeying her, pleading with her, whatever?

I might be jealous too, if it were me. On some level. It's pretty intimate stuff.

I don't think I'm being very helpful but I wanted you to know I understand.

Hops

[penelope]

Thanks hops.

I wish there was something for me to be jealous about - like if he'd have admitted some deep dark stuff about his family to her (of which I have not heard, of course).   

Seriously.  But I see no sign of it. 

He has a very interesting family.  His dad is a Pearl Harbor survivor (he's close to 90), Mom and Dad both still alive and relatively healthy...But I strongly suspect mom is codependent (if that wasn't the norm for women of her generation?) and Dad definetely had PTSD from the War they say - although obviously it could have come from the combination of growing up in the depression, leaving home at 15, his FOO AND the war.. 

He's a bit Nish himself, but I can't tell if he can empathize or not.  Hard to say, he's a bit distracted afterall as his memories not so good.  Also, I think when people get to be this old, they just don't focus on others very well.  He tells a lot of stories about himself, which I personally don't mind.

My b/f has a sister that is a Textbook N.  She is hilarious, actually, it really is ALL ABOUT HER.  So, I can't figure out if she gets this from being babied by Mom (she was the only girl in a family of 5 boys) or if Dad projected all his Nish behaviors onto her.  In some weird way I kind of feel sorry for her as she's the scapegoat in the family and I wonder if it was her fault she got stuck with the parents and birth order she has...and thus, the N (or whatever reason caused it).

Re: the codependency.  As we were driving home, you'd have been real proud as we were arguing about nothing (funny how that happens after a surreal event, when you're dancing around the real issue) and I said: Well, I don't want to argue and it's your problem.  I was just trying to make suggestions as I've read so many books myself (about anxiety, I have the same problem) - but if you don't want to trust that I'm just offering my insight, not trying to find blame with you or your family, hey, I'll just keep my comments to myself.  It's really not my problem.

In his family I've noticed that the main thing everyone adheres to is:  if someone else feels bad, it's your job to make them feel better - ie, you should hug them, coddle them, joke around, or whatever, until they get in a better mood.  I've told him so many times - this sounds rather codependent.  I don't think it's my job to make you happy..     oops, well you can imagine what happens when that is said.  It's not taken well, to say the least (but hey, it's how I feel).

He insists of course that his family is wonderful (N sister is at fault for everything bad, if there is anything, which he'll rarely admit).  Classic, isn't it.  Oh well, maybe in time, like when we're 60ish, he'll break down and admit some stuff to himself?  He's always saying I'm trying to point out what's "wrong" with him.  I'm always replying- "well I'm sorry it feels that way as it's not my intent.  Maybe that's the tape in your head and I'm just triggering an old feeling - possibly one that comes from your ((hypercritical)) (I tiptoe around that word) dad.."  (he replies in anger)

These conversations really do get old - I wish so badly that he'd become enlightened (like me - ha ha, OK I feel a little enlightened - if he'd read Toxic Parents at the minimum, I just feel a lightbulb might go on - but with my luck, because I told him to read it, he'd just disregard everything as "psychobabble" nonsense).  What can you do though?  People sure are stubborn.  And egos are so powerful.. It's like it'd kill him to admit there is anything unpleasant about his father.  I agree, he's 90% a great guy.  But there are those N tendencies and really unpleasant moments when they argue.. And his Dad is very likely the source of his anxiety - he's always wanting to make dad Proud.  Doing what Dad couldn't do.. (we're buying some retirement land where Dad always wanted to but could never afford to - classic huh?  but it does happen to be in a very beautiful part of the country) etc.

The reasons for me wanting to help really aren't so codependent (I hope) when you consider we'd communicate a lot better if he'd just admit a few basic phychological facts.  The funny thing is, he even has a minor in psychology.
 
pb

[Sela]

Hi Pb:

Just a couple of thoughts (and please....take what I'm about to say and pitch it if it just doesn't make any sense or seems waaaaaaaaaay off, ok?).

Regarding what your bf has and has not discussed with his doc:

of which I have not heard, of course

Do you assume/expect your bf to tell you most or more of what is discussed between he and his doc?  Is it possible he wishes to keep some stuff private?  How can you be sure about what they have and have not discussed and more important....why must you know?

He's always saying I'm trying to point out what's "wrong" with him.  I'm always replying- "well I'm sorry it feels that way as it's not my intent.  Maybe that's the tape in your head and I'm just triggering

Aren't you kind of discounting/rejecting/redefining his feelings?  Have you asked him if there is something you can do/stop doing that would help?
 

if you don't want to trust that I'm just offering my insight, not trying to find blame with you or your family, hey, I'll just keep my comments to myself.  It's really not my problem.

I agree.  It's not your problem and you might very well be perfectly correct about the way his family is and all but he doesn't see it that way.  Doesn't it sound controlling to keep trying to get him to see it your way?

Sorry Pb.  I'm hoping this will help.  Not easy stuff to look at or think about and certainly not meant for you to respond to here, if you don't feel like it.  (((((((Pb))))))).

Am I way off base here?

The thing is.....you can only change you and if you are feeling a great need to change stuff about him/about his thinking/about his relationships/etc.....  it could be some boundaries are blurring and also a sign that you are feeling a need to get control?  Maybe that's not at all near what's going on, I can't say.   Only you can really decide.

On the other hand, it's so hard when we see someone doing something we believe is wrong or bad or not doing something we believe is right or good....isn't it?  I think many people have a tough time watching others "suffer".  In a way.....it's what makes a good parent....a good friend....a good lover:

the ability to watch someone learn the hard way while keeping the trap shut.

The old patience thingy.

I know I have a hard time doing it sometimes and I sure have experienced a similar desire to control.   Tricky stuff to sort through eh?  Not what I want to know about myself but it does help to see who I really am and work on me, instead.

Maybe I'm just projecting because one of the ways I felt invaded by one of my abusers was a pestering to know what I was talking about with my therapist, who/where/when I was going, etc...very personal stuff.  AND MOST OF ALL....my attempts to set boundaries were belittled, criticised and ignored.  I was told I was "an idiot"......"too secretive"......"controlling" when I said I wanted my privacy in regards to my T.  But hey!  I didn't believe the crap my abuser was saying so it really didn't penetrate too deeply.  I still find it incredible though, that anyone would assume they have a right to know anything that is said between a person and their therapist (except possibly a court, in the case of crimes being confessed, or possibly other health care team members for various therapeutic reasons).  So I guess I'm venting a little too Pb ( ).

Sela

[portia guest]

Hiya Pb

I started writing an allegory but figured you’d see straight through it. So instead I’ll get to the point.

Would you like your b/f to change? Would you like him to ‘see’ things as clearly as you do?

Which of your primary caregivers would you also like to change, for them to see the light – about themselves and their background psychology?

Maybe try reading your posts again and substitute someone else for b/f – useful exercise? Maybe not, maybe so, I don’t know.

Other things that come to mind: what attracted you to him initially (compare those traits to caregivers), did you think you could ‘help’ him? (red flag)

Re his psychiatrist. Maybe he needs a therapist instead/as well. Psychiatrists aren’t necessarily trained to be therapists. They can sometimes treat the brain as a machine which simply needs proper doses of chemicals to function well; no need for that ‘talking’ stuff. Maybe she’s one of those? Horses for courses.


Sela

I was told I was "an idiot"......"too secretive"......"controlling" when I said I wanted my privacy in regards to my T.

How far was that little pile of doo-dah being projected from?? Typical venom-spew eh? I’m sorry ((((((((((((((((Sela)))))))))))))) I hope your heart knows it just ain’t true.

[penelope]

hi Sela and P,

I'm glad ya'll responded - I needed it spelled out like it is, thanks.  It is so easy to get caught up in my own thinking and forget how I've been affected by my N's.  I needed the reminder, and both posts were helpful to me and I think you've said things quite tactfully so no need to apologize.   

I'm thinking about what you've said.  It helps.

pb

[penelope]

hi guys,

I thought about this some more, and I think it is pretty important to me that my b/f and my relationship is defined by intimacy (not the same as codependency). 

I think the reason he asked me to go in to the appointment with his psychiatrist is because he wanted me to meet her.  Why?  I have no idea.  I guess I saw it as a sign of trust, on some level - but he may not even be aware of the reason why.  I guess I'll ask him the reason why soon.

The problem in our relationship that I see is that this type of behavior (him not being able to express feelings to me, or truly feel all the bad and good ones, and be OK with his FOO stuff) precludes our intimacy, I think.  It triggers me when things like this happen - when he finds it difficult to discuss FOO stuff with me, perhaps not even wanting to admit some stuff to himself.  The reason is, in order to be close to me - if we were to get married one day, for example -I'd want to know this stuff, and I'd want him to feel comfortable telling me - and to get to this point I believe he has to be comfortable admitting some stuff to himself.  Which I see potentially being the problem.  I think a person's self esteem is based in large part, not in putting up an ego front, but in admitting and accepting all their feelings - uncomfortable or not.  In a way, one's partner can be as healing if not more than a therapist.  What is a therapist but a friend?  A good friend that accepts and loves you, thus replacing a parental role model you never had, until you learn to take over and do this for yourself.  So in this regard, I want someone as "enlightend" as me for a reason.  I don't want to feel lost, angry, unloved, confused, ignored, etc, around the love of my life.  That would not be intimacy, that would be codependency.  Now I know that love is a commitment, and it is a commitment to the well-being of another, and I think finding a loving way to tell someone else that you're worried isn't co-dependent.  It's loving.  And it's loving to him and me.  What do you think?

So I guess I'm finding it very difficult to be intimate with him, I'm always "waiting" for something more...for this moment to occur, but we never seem to get there.  And I think it's OK at this point in our relationship (we're almost at the 3 year mark where many relationships come to a point of Make it or Break it)...to be asking these kind of questions.  Now is better than later, I'd think.

Maybe this is a Big Red Flag that I've been ignoring and that's why it is upsetting to me.  Maybe I don't want to face this truth that the intimacy I want in the relationship isn't coming forward...and I'm seeking reasons why, and possibly even solutions (such as the talking to one's T idea). I don't think I want a relationship with secrets.  I'd hope that anything said in a therapist's office could be shared with me (or at least the gist of it), unless of course it'd be harmful to me to hear it - for example, if he'd been sharing intimate details about a previous g/f or something like that - stuff I don't really need to know..

More thoughts for this Sunday.  I'm getting a little clarity, and that's good.

pb

[WRITE]

what is 'FOO stuff'?
I can never remember what accronyms are.

I'm finding it very difficult to be intimate with him, I'm always "waiting" for something more...for this moment to occur, but we never seem to get there.

what do you mean by intimacy here? Closeness, sharing more, demonstration, exclusiveness?

I'd hope that anything said in a therapist's office could be shared with me

Aah.
Is that reasonable?

It's not a 'secret' pb, it's something he has gone to work out in a ( hopefully ) neutral therapeutic place. Something he probably needs to do before he can be the best partner for you.

If he's N he will have a whole boatload of emotions which are nothing to do with you.

In an ideal world we'd all go out and exorcise our psyche and self-esteem and general wellbeing way before approaching a relationship. But life is messy. He clearly trusts you, and wants you to be a part of his therapeutic experience, but do you really want or need to know everything about him?

Isn't the intimacy you crave maybe based somewhat on trusting the strength of feelings between you rather than having to have emotional control over either yourself or him?

What is a therapist but a friend?

a good therapist is never your friend.
Friendship is a two-way street, reciprocal and free.

Therapy is an arrangement, where one person facilitates the other's development or recovery for cash, within a professional framework.

I don't think I want a relationship with secrets.

what are you afraid of?
Where in life have secrets or lack of clarity failed you?
What about love: do you feel loved in this relationship?

I have thought a lot lately about this, and though the answer isn't what we always want to hear, 'do I feel loved?' is so often the question.

Yes, love can be a commitment, even to difficulty, it can also be an emotional letting go.
We can love someone enough to let them ( and us ) move on to another stage of life.
More than that- we can love someone so much, it's the only positive outcome.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))



In 1916 just before the Revolution Russian poet Marina Tsvetaeva wrote this poem to her lover:


No one has taken anything away
I am delighted that we are apart!
I kiss you across hundreds
Of separating versts.

I know: our gift is unequal.
My voice for the first time, quiet.
What to you, young Derzhavin,
My illbred verse!

On a scary flight I bless you:
Fly, young eagle!
You have suffered the sun, without blinking,
Is my young glance too heavy?

More tender and irrevocable
Nobody watched you going away...
I kiss you - across hundreds
Of separating years.

( Trans Ljubov V. Kuchkina )

[portia guest]

Hi pb

I was thinking yesterday: why did your b/f ask you to go with him. Did you ask him? I did wonder, trying to imagine the situation. Going back, I tried to imagine why this meeting had what seems to me a deep emotional impact on you, and that’s why I asked, maybe if it’s bringing up parental situations with you (so causing such a strong response). So I asked if bf is maybe someone you want to change (as you’d want your parents to change, hey, as we all do! those of us with emotionally dysfunctional parents). Then I thought about the psychiatrist and your reaction to her – for you to maybe reconsider – what expectations, if any, did you have about her responses to you? She seemed to ignore you and your input (big trigger for me!). I wondered if maybe in that situation, she was also fulfilling another parental role, and you reacted strongly because you felt caught in one of those old triangles?

If it was me, being ignored, trying to ‘help’….I guess I’d react to her like she was my stepdad and bf would turn into my victim mother. The roles and genders in these situations I find can be mixed up: the clue that I’m responding to an old ‘familiar’ situation is in the strength of my response (and sometimes the resulting confusion – confusion being a darn good indicator that something is awry).

This doesn’t mean that the situation was exactly as you perceived it (she could just be a psych who maybe felt uncomfortable with your presence? I wonder if your bf told her why he wanted you there?? Did she ask???). But your reaction to the situation says more about you than what was actually happening…for example, if this was a work meeting, maybe you’d have clarified with both parties what your role was, what the objective was? Here it wasn’t clear and perhaps importantly, I guess you made assumptions about why he’d asked you there…assumptions that may (or may not) be correct? The more information we can get about any situation, the better prepared we are and the clearer our role. If my role isn’t clear, I really don’t like it, because I may have to think on my feet and just maybe, I’ll agree to something I don’t want to, or find myself compromised in some way, or find I’m playing a role that I want to play, but which is inappropriate.

To your last post. I understand about wanting this type of intimacy; I’ve wanted it too. Trouble is, it seems perhaps he can’t discuss it because he doesn’t know himself. And we can only decide to want to know, ourselves.

I don't want to feel lost, angry, unloved, confused, ignored, etc, around the love of my life.

Oh ((((((pb)))))). This is about you, you know? It’s about meeting your needs and he doesn’t meet those needs. But I’m not sure anyone could really, truly, cause you to feel a lack of all those things. Maybe that’s not true; many people love their partner precisely because the partner meets those needs: a partner of a very anxious, very angry person may be the sort of person who is strong and silent, who can ‘put up’ with the anger and anxiety, because partly it makes them feel useful and superior. That’s how many relationships work – one fills the gaps in the other, and not always what I’d call healthily. Co-dependency I guess, but for some it works.

A totally healthy relationship to me is one where both people respect the similarities and differences, understand them and appreciate them. A healthy relationship is where you simply enjoy the other person for what they are: not for what they can do for you. If you feel lost, angry, unloved, confused, ignored, as I have done all my life until right now (seriously), it’s because of what’s inside your head. If you want a partner to help you feel less of those things, you want him to meet your unmet childhood needs. Anyone can want that, it’s not wrong or bad, but being aware of what you want, and why (your need, not partner’s deficit), would help I guess. And not everyone will agree, or be able to meet your needs. Imagine: I say to you, we’ve been together for two years and I love you and enjoy your company but what I really need is for you to help me feel less unloved, angry and confused. You might say to me: ‘how can I do that, how does what I do cause you to feel angry..etc. I am what I am, I didn’t know you wanted me to be something different..’?

I don't think I want a relationship with secrets.

Well his secrets are locked in his head and maybe he doesn’t know them yet. Previous girlfriend? Is that a fear of yours. that somehow there’s another woman in his head? Secrets though, or denial? Denial is a strong, successful ‘coping’ mechanism. If your bf is in denial about his past, there’s a good reason – it’s too painful. I was in denial until 40+. Nothing would move me: my parents were weird but they were okay. My partner told me they were abusive but I couldn’t hear it. He might have felt angry with me, confused about my denial but if he did, he didn’t show it. He let me make my choices and he made his. He refused to see my parents; he put down his boundaries and he allowed me to be different.

So I guess I'm finding it very difficult to be intimate with him, I'm always "waiting" for something more...for this moment to occur, but we never seem to get there. 

You’re saying this here, you could say it to him. How would that be? Could you have this conversation? Could you write him a letter and ask for one in reply? If not, why not? Thing is, the type if intimacy you talk of (and it sounds good to me) takes two committed aware people, committed to being totally honest and reciprocal. That’s tough stuff for me; I tend to see it as work in progress and I’m not ready for that level of honesty, not with my past; I’m still working on me and enjoying that my partner is relatively different to me! I know he can't meet my childhood needs either, it's asking too much, in my case.



Write:

Family Of Origin. Think Foooo….smelly place of origin? Might help?!

a good therapist is never your friend.

Agreed and underscored. Therapy might feel like love, but it is not love, it’s a process with an objective (the objective being that the therapist becomes redundant).

[Hops]

HI PB,
I can relate a lot to this. I know in my first marriage (well, both) I tried desperately to unearth the FOO causes of each man's dysfunction and pain. Took me forever, realllllly a long time, to unearth that my compulsion to "fix" broken people was also dysfunctional. Analysing them was such a satisfying distraction from my own fear of intimacy, which I thought was theirs. (They may have feared it too...but...I did too and I didn't own it or even know it, because I could flood the air with verbal analyses so fluently...as though they were the same as being present while being at peace. Which I was not.)

I'm glad Portia mentioned boundaries. I think they're really hard for children/spouses/recovering victims of Nrelationships.

I think if boundaries are sometimes hard to respect or establish (both can happen)...it may be, for example, because we can confuse SECRETS (furtive, dishonest) with a healthy sense of PRIVACY (stems from autonomy, respect for one's own path and pace). I think therapy belongs absolutely to the client. Any sharing whatsoever has to be voluntary. I think he's not going to meet your intimacy needs because, as P said, they're really more about you and your own primal work, not about what's healthy to demand of an adult partner. You can be very close and loving and share constantly with your partner, but unfortunately, you can't invite him into your psyche or yourself into his, with a toolbelt. Sigggh. (I do wish it worked that way, though.)

I have one absurd but telling memory about this from my 2nd marriage to the N-artist. (Gross out alert.) I liked to be alone on the john, in the bathroom. I was truly uncomfortable with my exN's invasiveness. Even when I intentionally shut the door he would walk immediately to the bathroom and shove it open, all the way. I would object and he'd insist, but you can share anything with me. At that time I was too voiceless to realize that I should have responded, but I choose NOT to share this with you, get your skinny butt out of my bathroom!

((((PB))))

Hops

[portia guest]

Hi Hops

I had a thought about your “absurd but telling memory” (I don’t think it’s absurd; he was absurd….). My stepdad used to follow my mother everywhere and would be waiting for her outside the toilet door (I think Certain Hope has mentioned this behaviour too about her ex). I lived with a man for a short time who was er..interested in what I did in the bathroom (gross out) and it struck me: isn’t this what 5 year olds are interested in – ooo let’s talk about poo and you show me yours and I’ll show you mine??? In 5 year olds it’s okay; in adults it’s pretty sickening stuff. But emotional 5 year olds? Just a thought.

[Certain Hope]

Yup, ex did indeed wait outside the bathroom door on so many occasions that I wished the little window in there was larger so I could climb out. However ... he was strangely modest re: bodily functions type of stuff... in fact, I don't think I ever heard the man so much as belch or pass gas. The bathroom is the only room in the house where he would NOT barge in on me, come to think of it. No other door in our home was allowed to be shut to him. Perhaps that's why he felt compelled to stay so near whenever I was in there.... he must have hated the fact that it was the one place he dare not go. (That may be due to the fact that he grew up in a household of women who must have engrained that rule into him at a very early age.)  Anyhow, refusing to allow for the sanctity of potty time is a gross boundary violation, imo    N's are so wacked.
Hope

[penelope]

he he,
thanks for the chuckle Hope.   a weak

it's all making more sense... thank you guys.  Sometimes I think my brain is a little fried around the edges.

pb

[portia guest]

Pb
Sometimes I think my brain is a little fried around the edges

Do you mean....you're sort of apologising for not 'getting' this yourself..not meeting some internal standard you want to live up to, feeling somehow like you should do all this yourself with no help, with no-one else's input...otherwise you're somehow ....failing? 

Or is that me projecting big time? Could be! Easily! I feeel all those things. I feel like I should know everything and be 'strong' and 'responsible' and ....perfect . "It's My Fault I don't understand, I'm soooo Stupid/Worthless/Incompetent/Bad/Wrong/Useless". Bad tapes. We're all human, fallible, not perfect. And the terrible thing is, we can 'see' others far more clearly and easily than we can see ourselves. I can't see my relationship with my partner clearly. I'd have to ask you but right now............................I don't want to. Much easier to answer your posts than think about me. *gulp*

[penelope]

Yes, it is the old tape Portia.  *sigh*

Here is the definition of intimacy from Mia Pellody's Intimacy Factor that I think I'm striving for:

"To be respectful and loving toward our partners, we want to be comfortable in front of them.  Our partners, to be loving and respectful of us, also need to feel comfortable in front of us.  When our boundaries enable us to communicate our truth and to receive truth without pain, fear, and anger, the conditions for comfort exist.  Communication skills are so often taken for granted that we are blinded to how difficult communication is in relationships.  Relationships require maturity and skill, and fortunately when we learn the skills, maturity follows.  Boundary work is the most important tool in developing the kind of emotional communication that leads to intimacy in relationship...It takes awhile to work out the ground rules for intimacy, and we have to be committed enough to the relationship to hang in there while difficulties are being resolved.  ..We have to be loyal.  Being loyal is about backing up your partner when the partner is in conflict with someone else [I would also add when they're in conflict with themselves  ]."

So the goal is to understand one's partner.  Not to control or inflict pain, or to blame.  But to understand, which requires strong boundaries on both's part - both talking and listening boundaries.  Then, intimacy can be reached. 

She also explains "When an individual has a wall for an internal talking containment boundary, he never tells anyone what is important."

I believe this is the barrier to intimacy that I see happening with my partner.  My anger, hurt, confusion, etc comes from his wall, partially, but also, me accepting in this information, rather than using my boundaries to deflect it.  It is not the truth that he doesn't have a core person in there somewhere that is hurt and in denial, and thus not wanting to share.  I can choose to remember this.  So when I'm identifying this, then seeking constructive (ie, kind) ways of approaching him about it, I'm striving for intimacy - now whether it's codependent or not, I don't know.  Change for the purpose of intimacy can be good, in other words. I truly believe this.  And I think it's OK to ask for this, albeit in the appropriate way.  Requesting that change kindly strengthens a relationship, I believe, it doesn't tear it down - I hope anyway.  Else, everything I've been learning is for naught.  I am destined to live alone in that case.  Cause I don't think intimacy comes naturally to most.

By the way, when he got off the Effexor, he became abusive to me (Angry over small things, condescending, short-tempered, difficult to be around).  So I was thinking about leaving the relationship because I didn't want to be around him anymore, I needed to protect myself.  So was it kind or not to communicate this to him?  Which I did, btw.

pb