Tough Love

[penelope]

Somebody else on here (won't mention who, but you can probably figure out who it was) reminded me of a dynamic that existed in my FOO.  It was the dynamic of Tough Love.

Little boys are often taught this dynamic while little girls aren't.  But little girls can learn it too.  It results (I think) in hyper competetive, hyper aware, angry adults.  It's a dynamic I've fought against almost my entire adult life, once I recognized it existed in me and I decided that I wanted to get rid of it as it wasn't the real me.

It manifests itself, I think, in always finding someone to hate; those who you hate become your motivation or driving force in life.  You seek to do better than them, you seek to have more, you seek to Win at all cost - and it does cost dearly to go through life like this, I know, I've watched my parents go through life like this.  If there is no one to hate, they must resort to sitting alone with themselves, and this is very painful.  Anger is a much more comfortable feeling than sadness or depression, we've all heard that before.  Imagine if it were your life?

Now you grow up and you're an adult and out in the world, and you've only ever been taught this Tough Love.  Mom or Dad (or both) were always jealous of you, why should you think anyone else should be any different?  Why would anyone want good things for you?  They're just waiting for me to trip so they can laugh when I fall...

that's the way a child who's been Tough Loved feels.

anybody else relate?  It's very easy for me to slip back into the old pattern...  I can do it almost without thinking.  Just pretend like the world's out to get you and respond accordingly.  I spent 20 years fighting Tough Love, and I'll spend the next 20 more overcoming it's affects, I'm sure.

It does get better, a little bit, day by day.  I have to remind myself who's on my side now.  you?

pb

[Overcomer]

Penelope:  That totally reminds me of my Nmom and my grandfather.  He was always an angry man.  Never had a good word to say about anyone.  Now my mom grits her teeth and uses the "hate" word an awful lot.  "I hate it that these people won't listen to me."  "I hate those people."  Now I find myself "hating" my mom.  Yes, I am angry.  That generational curse runs deep. 

But sometimes I just want to tell the world about my hate.  The fact that I have been slighted.  The fact that she is so bad.  It is my driving force to take down my mom.  I don't want to live like that but I cannot tolerate the woman!!!!!

[Certain Hope]

Hi Pb,
 
I think that just the word "love" alone means different things to different people, with some considering it a combination of ecstatic feelings and others attaching to it a deep level of commitment. I mean, look at the way the word is used... "I love my car, I love that color, I love traveling...."  Sure cheapens the concept and seems to reduce love to a feeling we might get when something/someone gives us pleasure. So what happens when we no longer get pleasure from that person/thing?
 
Seems that "tough love" is another concept which may mean different things to different people. Because of those differences in views, it's likely been abused by those who would use it as an excuse to harm another; but as with most everything, I think it's the intent of the heart that counts.
 
When I think of "tough love", it's the sort that's often been recommended by folks like Dr. James Dobson. Not that I'm a huge Dobson fan, but I do see some value in what he describes as tough love in certain cases... for instance when dealing as a parent with children gone wild or even with an adulterous spouse. To me, it means holding people accountable by enforcing boundaries which don't allow for them to continue in damaging behavior (whether to themselves or to someone else).  Here's part of an article I found online which better states my view of the concept and how it may be applied in positive ways:
 
What is “tough love?” Much has been written about this two word phrase. Some will say that tough love saved their son or daughter. Others will say it is the most heartless concept on the planet.

However, in fact, what really is “ tough love?” A sizeable group of people define it as a hard-nosed, rather rigid way of forcing people you love who are engaged in negative behavior to confront their destructive behavior and hopefully change.
Those critical of this definition of tough love believe that it is a cold and unfeeling approach to someone’s troubles.

There are other advocates of “tough love” who believe it is a powerful strategy that empowers people to change and grow. These folks define this concept as a positive form of loving, where one does not enable the troubled person to remain stuck in his or her difficulties. It demands unconditional loving with clear boundaries and the willingness to be strong when the person in trouble attempts to manipulate and use you.

This kind of tough love sometimes demands that you take some difficult actions for the sake of the troubled person. It is not about abandoning him or her, or turning your back on the person. It is really about genuine loving.

When someone is stuck in a destructive cycle of living, sometimes it is easier to enable him or her rather than empower him or her.

When we enable someone, we rarely hold them accountable or confront them with their negative choices or behaviors. We mask our enabling by calling it loving because we don’t want to hear our loved ones “talk trash” about us or accuse us of not really caring.

Empowering a troubled loved one with tough love is forcing the person to be accountable for his or her choices and decisions and being very clear that there are serious consequences if they make certain choices.

Failing to hold someone accountable, especially for destructive choices, is not loving him or her, but rather is further enabling them to possibly hurt themselves forever.

Raising teenagers and young adults today is a challenging adventure. The social rules that were once cast in cement change like the wind. Too many parents cave in to the peer pressure when it comes to setting difficult standards for their children. They don’t want to be the bad guys. For some, there is more of an emphasis on becoming their teenager’s friend rather than staying focused on being a parent.

Being a parent today means being on the firing line constantly. You have to be open and willing to set difficult boundaries and at times say no and mean no! It is not a dirty word.

To me, “Tough love” does not mean being cold or harsh. It means being clear, consistent and tenacious, even when it is hard and difficult.
 
Pb, what you're referring to here as "tough love" sounds more to me like roughness and coldness acted out under the guise of love, as in the case of someone who punishes another and then says, "It's for your own good". Not the same thing at all, to me. To me, tough love is not the absence of emotion/empathy, but rather a completed, genuine love which recognizes that sometimes we all need to be held accountable and all of the hand-holding in the world won't get some people out of some ruts till they're confronted with the harsher realities of life... i.e.... some behaviors are simply not acceptable. There's a big difference between being abusive and insisting on accountability, I think.
 
Hope

[Certain Hope]

Hi again, Pb,

   Been thinking on this as I prepared supper and the realization just sunk in that I didn't at all respond to what you were saying, really. Guess I'm still at the phase of defining terms, so I'm way behind you in the process of thinking it through. I do appreciate the opportunity to respond, even if I'm still back at the starting line and you're midway around the track. Helps me alot to think aloud this way, but if it makes what you're trying to accomplish more difficult, I'll hold my thoughts. Sorry for the detour.

Hope

[penelope]

Well I like the sound of that tough love better hope.   

I was thinking about the Tough Love that is too tough for tears, the Tough Love that doesn't show emotions (it can't even identify emotions - in fact, when emotions are being felt, the mind zones out from the body).

It's interesting that our emotions are a primitive instinct; their purpose was to warn us about danger (negative emotions), or to drive us to do certain desirable things (in the case of positive emotions).  That was the purpose of emotions, but what purpose do they serve us now? 

I guess in a Tough Love situation, you stuff your feelings so far down inside, you barely know they're in there.  You forget about them, or only choose to express a few - like anger and rage.

pb

[penelope]

nope it wasn't you.  No interest in fighting with you either jac

[Certain Hope]

  Please pardon me for interrupting, but... once I understood what you were talkin about here, Pb, I did a google for "Big boys don't  cry" and found this Reader's Digest article (you might be interested).  I've only read part of it so far, but I'm wondering.... is it possible that the actual hard wiring which is present in most females gets changed to be more like the male brain when a child grows up in an emotionally flat/cold environment? Maybe the same techniques used to bring men into a deeper emotional awareness would help those who have stuffed their feelings for so long?

Anyhow, here's the article:   http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=18053

Hope

[Hopalong]

Interesting point, Hope.
Here's another example:

Scientists have recently discovered that not all, but a majority of gay males are the youngest of older brothers. They believe that the mother's body is attempting to have a female child after having given birth to several males, and that in some way as yet not fully understood, a genetic feminization of some sort is triggered in the fetus' brain.

Therefore, homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice, but a biological drive as natural as heterosexuality. Just as God-given as the other gifts of nature. This has always seemed logical to me given the great trauma of coping with a "contrary" sexual identify amid the other horrors of adolescence.

Hops

[penelope]

very interesting article Hope.  And it sums up a lot of what I couldn't really verbalize too.

I don't know about anyone else, but mens' emotional worlds fascinate me.  I mean it, I'm Fascinated. 
This is the best part of my job, I swear.  I work with a lot of men, and they're so interesting to me, the way they interact with me and the way they interact with each other; the way they show fear (as if they're not showing it - but I can tell, why do they think I can't?), the way they can get ultracompetetive yet stay cool.  The way they have to know so much about cars, and sports, and fishing, and the latest Space mission.  It's like they all study the same newspapers or websites or something.  They even have their own language, I swear.

It's fascinating stuff. 

Tough Love can be cute, there are two different ends of the spectrum for sure.  Like the guy who starts out all macho, and cool, like he's not going to admit anything in a million years, about what he's feeling- then two hours into a conversation, will break down and finally admit something he's feeling that is pretty vulnerable- like fear.  Or if someone in a group of men is the first to admit "well, maybe we don't know what we're doing here.." - it's funny how all the others will deny it at first, cause, simply that would leave them feeling - well vulnerable.  Or sometimes if everyone is thinking the same thing (we don't have a clue what we're doing), sometimes someone will finally admit "I'm confused" and the rest of the men will give a collective sigh of relief - like, Oh good, she said it first, so now I don't have to admit I feel that (maybe they don't know).

Tough Love is fascinating to me, truly.  But simple tough feelings are too.

pb

[penelope]

*sigh*

I would like you and reallyme to get off my butt.  Find something else to do, K?  Not your job to take care of me or my behavior, it's mine.

go away jac - find someone else to pester I'm in a great mood and don't feel like discussing anything with you.  Yesterday, I had a migraine and asked you to tone down your post (the green and red bold Hurt), I see you didn't.  I won't comment further what I think about your behavior, as it's not my place to do so.  Live and let live jac. 

[Overcomer]

You guys..............several months ago - maybe over a year, I frequented this message board a lot.  I needed it to clear my head and to figure out how I was going to deal with my Nmom.  I remember a couple of people just started going at it and a biig fight broke out.  Debates over tone of voice (which you can't figure out in this arena) got people going.  Threads were pages and pages long until finally Dr. Grossman closed some threads because they just got out of hand.  Several people quit writing because they were not allowed to state their views without someone else coming in and correcting them.  And is it not true that this board is about "voicelessness?"  Not being heard?  So why would people jump on other people for their views?  It's like invalidating the very people who do not want to be invalidated.

So, my suggestion is - state your views.  And let people own their views.  If you don't agree, then say you don't agree but give the person who has their views the privilege of having those views no matter how odd or annoying they may be to you personally.  If you are a buddist and someone says something Christian - then let it be.  And visa versa!!  If you are a democrat and someone says they are a republican - big deal - as long as they let you have your voice in this board.

[penelope]

I meant until you get over whatever this is you're going through jac.  No need to make a grand production of it.  I think you're taking things a bit too seriously that's all. 

I've never stopped posting to anyone on this board.  I think it's silly.  I do occasionally skip over certain people's posts if I find them offensive or rude or whatever.  But I don't try to dictate what others do here.  It's their space too, and all are welcome by me.

Occasionally I wish others would extend me the same courtesy.  I'm probably not getting picked on though, I'm sure that's just my trigger.

[reallyME]

I was thinking about the Tough Love that is too tough for tears, the Tough Love that doesn't show emotions (it can't even identify emotions - in fact, when emotions are being felt, the mind zones out from the body).

that is called Narcissism not "love" of any kind, tough or otherwise.  It consists of shutting you up and not letting you feel nor express those feelings, and it is just plain wrong.

Penelope, so nice of you to acknowledge my existence after sooooooooo long.  As usual I see you are thoughtfully projecting onto me or is it blameshifting, because I said I felt color-changes are petty in my viewpoint, and I will stand on that.  There does come a time when we decide to stop going with the familiar in our life, and to get past things and move ahead.  I know in therapy that is what you are doing and I commend you and don't hold anything against you for your comments toward me.  I am a strong person who basically loves people in general, to the extent that I even talk to the 2 N's in my life now.  You are allowed to own your stuff as I own mine.

Blessya

~Laura- ReallyME

[Certain Hope]

Good Mornin, Pb

For what it's worth....  I don't think you're being picked on here. Also, I have a sensitivity to red print/ type at times, too... especially when I'm tired to begin with. When I used to do chat, there were a few of us who would ask folks with red font to please change to a more neutral color. Usually they were happy to oblige. Even the white background on my screen can get to be a bit too bright, if I'm havin a migraine-prone day and I rarely go outside without my shades     Sometimes I wonder if I didn't get some sort of snow-blindness as a kid, cuz it's always been this way and I can recall going outside after a big snowfall, with the sun reflecting off all that white stuff and I could hardly open my eyes. My son has kinda a novel reaction to the sun reflecting off of white pavement, like in a store parking lot.... he begins to sneeze     Yeah, we have fun ~ lol.

Kelly, I think what you said about letting everyone express his/her own views here was nicely put. Hopefully we can disagree without being disagreeable here and if there are folks who ultimately can't seem to get along, they can just stay out of each other's immediate space/face and allow peace to reign. There are always going to be conflicting personalities, but that doesn't have to develop into a huge flare-up if the parties involved will just agree to stop pushing buttons.

Hops, I disagree re: homosexuality. I don't think it's either a God-given gift or natural. One thing that especially concerns me about that view is this: When a society accepts that a person "can't help" being gay and has every right to act out that lifestyle, how far is that society from accepting that a pedophile "can't help" his desire for children and has every right to act on that desire? Evidence: the "man boy love association", including its North American chapter. That concerns me alot.

Oh, Pb... I'm with you on being fascinated by the emotional world of men! And ~ lol... yup, they do have their own language, indeed. I've always been inclined to hang around with the men in a group rather than the women, simply because I found less gossip and backstabbing behavior among them. Of course, they have their own unique ways... but I always seemed to relate better. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've just never seen men "gang up" on someone they don't like and set about to manipulate that person's undoing. Females, on the other hand, have often seemed to me to be much more obsessive re: issues of envy, jealousy, just typical sort of "catty" behaviors.
   You said, "sometimes someone will finally admit "I'm confused" and the rest of the men will give a collective sigh of relief - like, Oh good, she said it first, so now I don't have to admit I feel that (maybe they don't know)" 

I think you're right! Maybe they really don't know. Maybe that outward show of confidence has developed into such a thick layer, such a strong defense mechanism, that they really do lose touch with the underlying feelings. I dunno. I do think that's a big reason why men are so into "fixing" problems, rather than listening to all of the emotions attached to the problem that a woman might just want them to hear. All that can just seem to painful... kinda like that bold red typeset is to some of us.

You know, I had 3 girls before having my son... he's 10 now &  I was pretty much a single parent for the first 8 years of his life. It's funny... my girls are, in many ways, much "tougher" than him... like when they'd get a cut or scrape. He's a very sweet and sensitive kid... plenty rough and tumble like any boy, but I've sometimes felt the need to help him "toughen up" a bit. It's not easy. Sometimes I just have to tell him, "Kiddo... yer gonna have to 'cowboy up' about this"... then I wink... and he knows what I mean. Never saw a sweeter smile than this boy's... he's a treasure.

Whew, time for coffee!!

Wishing everyone a great day,
Hope

[reallyME]

HOPE

Hops, I disagree re: homosexuality. I don't think it's either a God-given gift or natural. One thing that especially concerns me about that view is this: When a society accepts that a person "can't help" being gay and has every right to act out that lifestyle, how far is that society from accepting that a pedophile "can't help" his desire for children and has every right to act on that desire? Evidence: the "man boy love association", including its North American chapter. That concerns me alot.

AMEN!

I agree with what you said in comparing men and women...I thought I was the only one who prefers male companionship over "catty" women.