Tough Love

[penelope]

hi kelly,

sorry I got distracted from the main topic - I did not want to do that.  I wish people would PM me if they need to know something in the future.  Some of us like to stick on topic and minimize the distractions from the topic. 

Can I ask why you're back?  Is there something in particular you need to discuss or are feeling?

Now I find myself "hating" my mom.  Yes, I am angry.  That generational curse runs deep. 

  I hear ya kelly.  There is a yahoo group for those of us who've divorced our parents if you'd like to join send me a PM or search on the threads here.  It's a great group - in a lot of ways.

But sometimes I just want to tell the world about my hate.  The fact that I have been slighted.  The fact that she is so bad.  It is my driving force to take down my mom.  I don't want to live like that but I cannot tolerate the woman!!!!!

I know what you mean.  I did get a few digs in with my Mom before I stopped talking to her.  I emailed all her and my Dad's friends and said "I don't know why they do this?"  At the time, I was expressing genuine (I think) desire to fix the situation.  But I think I also - a part of me - wanted to tell their friends, who think they're wonderful, a little of how they treat their kids.

hugs kelly,

pb

[penelope]

hope - thanks for understanding the red bold thingee, you seem like a caring, sensitive soul - your family is lucky to have you!  That is too funny about your son! 

Kelly, I think what you said about letting everyone express his/her own views here was nicely put. Hopefully we can disagree without being disagreeable here

I've noticed there are a few people who can't.  I ignore them.

and if there are folks who ultimately can't seem to get along, they can just stay out of each other's immediate space/face and allow peace to reign.

Like I said, there's a few individuals who can't stay out of another's space, it's like a compulsion or something.  Even when it's spelled out to them, they still insist on getting their digs in.  When that happens a few times, I feel disregarded and I don't engage the other person in discussion again (not on purpose anyway - I'm sure I slip and do it subconsciously).

There are always going to be conflicting personalities, but that doesn't have to develop into a huge flare-up if the parties involved will just agree to stop pushing buttons.

  Typically there's an agreement on one side, but often not the other.  Just what I've observed, anyway.

I used to avoid women for the reasons you've mentioned too hope, but then I saw a richness in the communications with women that I'd missed before.  And now I'm equally intrigued with women's styles for different reasons...

I think you're right! Maybe they really don't know. Maybe that outward show of confidence has developed into such a thick layer, such a strong defense mechanism, that they really do lose touch with the underlying feelings. I dunno. I do think that's a big reason why men are so into "fixing" problems, rather than listening to all of the emotions attached to the problem that a woman might just want them to hear. All that can just seem to painful... kinda like that bold red typeset is to some of us.

   I constantly have to remind my b/f not to "fix" me.     He really has good intentions though, so I can't get angry with him when he forgets.  He's very cute, he came home from work the other day and said "you know that empathy thing you were telling me about?  well I tried it on [a coworker] and it really works!"     I guess he was listening    and here I always thought cause he was perusing fuel injector catalogs in bed, that he couldn't multi task. 

Your son sounds like a true treasure.  I bet he's going to be very in touch with women when he gets older, you'll have to keep an eye on him, he's going to be a lady killer!  (tease)  Personally, I think a guy that can express feelings is very sexy and a rare treat.

Wishing everyone a great day

you too hope.

pb

[Hops]

Hi Hope:
My brother used to sneeze at the sun.
My dog sneezes when I'm giving her affection. I read somewhere it's dog talk for "Whoo, I'm so happy!"

Hope the articles below may help your understanding. Many people conflate homosexuality with pedophelia, and that's inaccurate (and feeds homophobia). There are some homosexual pedophiles, but just as there are many fewer homosexuals than heterosexuals in the general population, the same outcome is shown in general statistics about pedophiles--the vast majority are heterosexual. The Catholic church crisis has confused many people, but the reason is simply that many gay men are attracted to seminary life, and at the same time, many pedophiles may select the priesthood to give them access to children in private settings. Although not necessarily in the Catholic church, vastly more girls in general are molested by pedophiles than boys. Many girls have also been molested by priests, but likely more boys, because of the environment of the priesthood. But that is a specific climate. (Another example: my grandfather, a conservative evangelist, sexually abused his daughters.) Despite the theatrics of some outlandish homosexuals, which the media is attracted to because they are sensational, homosexuals of either gender do not "recruit" children into sexual activity any more than heterosexuals do.

I know these as facts, not opinion, but I also know that some people cannot accept homosexuality as a biological reality without betraying their system of belief. I respect their right to believe as they feel is right, and usually find there is little benefit in trying to shift it. But for anyone who may be open to considering homosexuality from a different angle, here's some info.
-------------------------------------------------
The gender identity of pedophiles: what does the outcome data tell us?.Tardif M, Van Gijseghem H.; Department of Sexology, Universite de Quebec a Montreal, Quebec H3C 3P8, Canada.

The aim of this study was to determine whether pedophiles have a different gender identity profile compared with non-sexual offenders. Participants were 87 male adult subjects, divided into three groups: (a) 27 pedophiles who abused male victims, (b) 30 pedophiles who abused female victims, and (c) 30 non-sexual offenders. The gender identity factor was measured with the Mf scale of the MMPI and the Bem Sex Role Inventory (BSRI). Results indicated no significant inter-group differences in terms of gender identity. However, the order of the three groups regarding scores on the Bem-Masculinity and the Mf scale was as predicted. Conceptual and empirical elements related to gender identity are addressed in order to shed light on potential disturbances in the gender identity of pedophiles. PMID: 15914405 [PubMed]

Psychological profile of pedophiles and child molesters.Murray JB.
Department of Psychology, St. John's University, Jamaica, NY 11439, USA.

Pedophiles and child molesters share some characteristics. Most are male, and they can be heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual. Some prefer adult sex partners but choose children because they are available and vulnerable. The sexual abuse perpetrated may be a 1-time incident and may consist only of fondling. Penetration is unlikely with young children. Perpetrators' ages range from teens to midlife. Most victims are girls, and the perpetrator usually is a relative, friend, or neighbor. The home of the victim is often the setting for the incident. When boys are victims, sexual abuse may take place outside the home, and perpetrators may be strangers. Perpetrators of sexual abuse of children often claim that they themselves were victims of childhood sexual abuse. PMID: 10766112

Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons.Groth AN, Birnbaum HJ.
A random sample of 175 males convicted of sexual assault against children was screened with reference to their adult sexual orientation and the sex of their victims. The sample divided fairly evenly into two groups based on whether they were sexually fixated exclusively on children or had regressed from peer relationships. Female children were victimized nearly twice as often as male children. All regressed offenders, whether their victims were male or female children, were heterosexual in their adult orientation. There were no examples of regression to child victims among peer-oriented, homosexual males. The possibility emerges that homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia may be mutually exclusive and that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater risk to the underage child than does the adult homosexual male.
PMID: 666571

Hops

[Hops]

PS, Hope: I could not agree with you more about the Man-Boy hideousness. I admire your restraint in saying it concerns you...it drives me absolutely purple.

I'm also quite Draconian in my feelings about prison for pedophiles. Some of my friends disagree with me, but I personally would like for predators who harm children to be literally locked up for life...no parole. I'm sorry, I know it's cruel, but it seems to me that in this culture we don't care terribly much about children. And science has also proven that whatever disorder triggers that sexual "preference", is incredibly resistant to treatment and very rarely cured. It's just not worth the risk, imo.

I am really the same about extremely violent offenders. I do not GET why often a marijuana dealer is still locked up when a rapist goes on parole. The whole penal system is full of so many inconsistencies.

(I am feeling very "charged" today...putting my opinions out in a much more direct fashion than is my usual style. Hope you know there's nothing personal in it, Hope...)

It's good to talk with you.
Hops

[Certain Hope]

Hi Pb,

   Thanks for your kind words.... I'm the one who's blessed to have my son and daughters; they're a great bunch. When my son came along, I was nearly 36 and truly had no desire for a 4th child. I will always thank God for that most wonderful surprise.

   I think it's really neat that your b/f is expanding his horizons in the empathy department    It's especially neat that he's willing to hear these things from you ... to really hear them and then follow through with putting them into practice! A wonderful thing it is when you have the "ear" of your loved one!

   Warm day here, but just about ready to settle in for some cool, quiet time ~ yay! I hope your day is goin smoothly  and I'm sorry about the (temporary) diversion of your thread in my response that's to follow (and the earlier one), but I don't want to carry this on to a new thread.

Hops, I would never initiate a discussion on the topic of homosexuality, but I didn't want to just ignore your earlier reference to it. Just so you know, it's not a subject on which I enter into casual debate. No problem, btw, re: being "charged" today   
I understand and can relate... just not at the moment ~ lol.

   Anyhow, I never meant to suggest that I believe homosexuality and pedophilia are somehow linked, except from the standpoint of my belief that both are unnatural sexual behaviors. I understand that there is not necessarily an increased percentage of pedophilia practiced among gay men, etc. What I was trying to express is basically what Jac has just stated more clearly than I.
Once the right to express one's sexual preference becomes elevated above the effects of that expression upon other individuals and the culture in general, I don't think that other limits upon that expression will hold for long.  My concern is that normalization of pedophilia, bestiality, and whatever else a depraved mind can think up can't be far behind. There really is nothing new under the sun.
  As far as belief systems go, you're right... to accept homosexuality would be a betrayal of my beliefs, which are based upon the teachings of the Bible, which absolutely forbids homosexuality, just as it forbids heterosexual fornication and adultery. But you see, to me it's not a matter of arguing whether or not homosexuality is biological. My position is.. we all have desires which may run counter to God's will for mankind. For instance, a man may declare that his sexual preference drives him to copulate with numerous females and therefore this is his God-given right. Well, I guess he can pursue that if he can find enough women willing to indulge. But does that mean he has no choice in the matter? He has this preference and so the preference rules him? Is he absolutely driven to exercise that right? Beasts have no choice; men do and women do. That man could choose to submit his own desires to those of his Creator. Truly, I see no difference between improper heterosexual activity and homosexual activity... it really is all a choice, imo.

Hope

P.S. on edit... oops, meant to add.... it's good to talk with you, too, Hops. I need a nap!!

[Hops]

Hi Jac,
And thanks, I wasn't clear. Shouldn't have used "preference"--confuses the thought. When I put it in quotes...I meant to be ironic, to show that this word can't be used seriously in the context of what a pedophile is. (Nor, to my mind, is it all that accurate for homosexuality.) But I realize irony doesn't always translate well onscreen.

I believe the scientific evidence is that homosexuality is a sexual orientation, a natural variant of human sexuality, biologically determined. I think within it are variations just as there are variations in the degree of sexual activity or drive in heterosexuals, from the asexual to the hypersexual. And, there are bisexuality and other complicated gradations of sexual identity. I don't think it's all that well understood yet, it hasn't been studied as long as much other human behavior. There may also be some environmental factors that make its expression more likely. Some people suppress it for a long time, even through heterosexual marriage. Heartbreaking for everyone, especially the family. It must be so crazymaking for the individual too.

I also think the "culture" of homosexuality has huge variations. Some gay couples remind me of Ozzie and Harriet more than most heterosexuals, and I've met some who make Castro Street look dull. Most live unremarkably in between, I think. So...I don't know how much the extreme edge of gay culture has anything to do with biology. Probably a complex mix of a whole bunch of things. Some of its excesses may have come out of historical oppression. Some's sure unhealthy. Just as some heterosexual behavior is.

I think that pedophilia is a horrendous disorder...ahh, THING. But I'll look it up, see if I can find more precise wording. (I yield to Wikipedia, which knows more than I do...also saw it referred to as a "sexual pathology"):
The term paedophilia erotica was coined in 1886 by the Vienna psychiatrist Richard von Krafft-Ebing in his writing Psychopathia Sexualis.[3] He gave the following characteristics:

the sexual interest is toward children, either prepubescent or at the beginning of puberty
the sexual interest is the primary one, that is, exclusively or mainly toward children
the sexual interest remains over time
Strictly speaking, this definition would include many adolescents and prepubescents, for whom such an interest might be normal; thus, some experts add the criterion that the interest be toward children at least five years younger than the subject. However, according to some experts, a diagnosis of pedophilia can also be appropriate for a post-pubescent adolescent.[4]

Use of the term pedophile to describe all child sexual offenders is seen as problematic by some people[5][6][7], especially when viewed from a medical standpoint, as the majority of sex crimes against children are perpetrated by situational offenders rather than people sexually preferring prepubertal children.[8][9][10] Nevertheless, some researchers, such as Howard E. Barbaree [11], have endorsed the use of actions as a sole criterion for the diagnosis of pedophilia as a means of taxonomic simplification, rebuking the American Psychiatric Association's standards as "unsatisfactory".

Some individuals[12][13], such as Dr. Fred S. Berlin[14][15], assert sexual attraction to children to be a sexual orientation in itself. Dan Markussen argues that "sexual orientation is defined as a lifelong attraction, which pedophilia obviously is."[16] This is at odds with the current popular acceptance of the term sexual orientation as meaning attraction to the opposite sex, the same sex, or both.

Hope that helps, but my brain's Googled out.
Thanks, Jac.

Hops

[Hops]

Hi Hope,
Thanks for your thoughts. I believe you.

...never meant to suggest that I believe homosexuality and pedophilia are somehow linked, except from the standpoint of my belief that both are unnatural sexual behaviors.

I understand. We share the belief that they're not linked at all, but don't agree as to whether homosexuality is unnatural. I understand Christian teaching about homosexuality (was raised with it), although there is some debate about translation of "lie" here and there--I've read that some Biblical scholars believe it refers to rape. But that doesn't matter to me because I don't take the Bible literally as revealed Word of God. I don't need to convert anybody, though, and respect your trust in the holy book as guidance for your life. You are clearly a kind person.

It is nice to disagree so agreeably though, and thanks for describing it that way (that was on another thread, but I thought it was a very graceful thing to say). I sometimes feel distressed when I hear people refer to homosexuality, pedophilia and bestiality even in proximity...because that tends to reinforce some cruel forces in our world. But I do understand why people do it. (I know it is very painful to gay people to be viewed and talked about as "unnatural", but you can't legislate inclusion or compassion. I relate to that subject much as I do to racism...through the filter of my experiences as a female.)

All these complicated subjects are tough to talk about, so I am grateful when a discussion takes place so civilly. I'm glad you're here, Hope. You certainly have plunged in and you have a lot to add. Thanks!

Happy napping,
Hops

[Hops]

Dunno what the heck is going on with me this week, and apologies if I've way hijacked this thread, but just occurred to me I've been flipping out about war, racism, child abuse, sexism...and, oh right, global warming. All in the space of a couple days.

I have felt like: "I am MOI, Hear Me Opine!" (One could say that's about claiming my voice, but I think that's putting too shiny a gloss on it.  )

It's actually felt pretty odd to be sooooooo assertive of my various stances, so I've have just been asking myself, what's up with that? (Not the opinions, they're all truly mine and I care  much about them...I'm more pondering the even-more-than-usual outspokenness.) Anyway, I think I figured it out.

I think it's leftover adrenalin from addressing 200+ people Sunday. I think it left me flushed with: happiness, emotion, and a bit of swelled ego. I spake! They liked me, they really liked me! (Remember Sally Field at the Academy Awards? I'm sure it was sincere but she paid a huge career price for being so transparently pleased.)

Meaning, I'm pondering: why should I refrain from voicing my depth of opinion on practically every justice subject there is? My answer for now is: I don't have to refrain, but I could consider it now and then.

I also think I'm avoiding some anxiety by engaging myself in such intense opining/writing. And I had 2 candy bars and 2 bagels today, and since I know I'm an emotional eater, and I've been cramming the carbs...something's up inside. Not entirely sure what, but something about recognition and wanting out of my box, and inner tension over waiting on a possible job interview, etc., etc.

Thanks for listening to me so patiently, everybody. I'll be typing some more when I get home.
love,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Hi Hope,
I wanted to add how my reasoning worked as I got to the place where I hold the beliefs I hold, in case it would be interesting to you (not to try to sway you from yours). I had been taught the point of view that even if a person has homosexual desires they should not act on them, ever, in order to be good (saved, or whatever a person wants to call it.) I asked my young self, but what if a person can only fall in love with a person of the same gender? (I had listened to enough gay people to understand that was the experience of most of them.) So then, I asked myself, does that mean gay people have to live as celibates, like priests, to be good? What if they don't want to be priests? What if they're not even Catholic? What if they want to love someone and live with them and touch them to express their love? Then I asked myself, if God made the beauty of sexual intimacy as one very powerful way to experience the divine, then why would about 10% of human beings be forbidden from experiencing it?

Then I realized I felt that would be punitive. Even cruel. Once I actually felt that, there was no turning back. My own certainty that if there is God, for me, God is love and only love. Only compassion. Only kindness. That's just it. That's one reason I moved on beyond believing in the Bible. (I love the book. It's rich and deep and fascinating and inspiring in many parts. I also love Jesus Christ. Personal savior, no. Glowing presence in my heart since childhood, without further definition, yes.)

I had since decided that if God is love and ONLY love, then I believe in God. (Don't talk about it much because most people assume that means I'd be a literal believer in the Bible as the only revealed word, which I don't. And since so many people use the word God to represent so many things, some I find cruel, I usually avoid it.) Anyway...I finally found a faith that is based partly in the belief in universal salvation. In other words, no hell. That was discarded by my denomination some years back when they concluded that a loving god would never cast anyone, at all, into eternal damnation.

That fit everything I felt throughout my heart, mind and body about who I am and what I can believe in. So...that led to my beliefs about many things.

Hope that helps you understand who I am. Thanks for reading it.

with love,
Hops

[Plucky]

Historically, many groups have been thought to be undeserving of normal human status due to their differences.  Left-handers were once thought to be evil.  Science and social movements finally removed that stigma, and relatively recently.  Is it possible that there are still some areas on which mainstream society, including religion, will change their thinking on the acceptability of certain groups and/or practices?  And if so, how can we be sure what those things will be? 

Will people who think gays are an aberration today be seen as the witch hunters of the 21st century?   While I am a religious person, I do not think I am infallible, therefore I might be wrong about something and need to have a little humility about whom I condemn.
Plucky

[Certain Hope]

Hi Hops,

  Thank you for taking an interest in explaining your reasoning on this issue and your belief system in general. I do appreciate it and I do understand.  I also know that there are people who think that to adhere to God's law is automatically to be an antagonistic and condemning individual. It's be easy to draw that conclusion, considering all of the condemning and antagonistic folks who claim to be Christians. Of course there are similar folks in every camp... people condemning others for condemning... and around and around it goes.

   I believe in a loving God, too. I believe that God is good and that He is love, and also that His commandments as they're given in the Bible are good and right. (Please insert an "I believe" before each of the following statements... )  He gave those commandments for the protection of His children, not to frustrate us. We don't become "good" or "saved" by keeping them. (Now that would be unfair, because no one can keep them perfectly.) So it's not about being good, it's about being made a new creature in Christ, who did keep them all.  So when it comes to issues of humanity... sexuality or any natural proclivity... I don't expect a person to turn his life around and become someone he's not for the sake of keeping some law that seems to deny him any chance of happiness he might have in this world. What I believe is that it's God who turns a person's life around, by the Holy Spirit, beginning with the heart, and making all things new again through Christ. If God had left us here with a set of arbitrary rules and regulations and said, "Here, you go figure it out and you'd better be good while you're at it", I wouldn't worship Him, or serve Him. But a God who'd take on flesh and walk among His children, take their place of punishment for all the wrongs of humanity, and set them free from the bondage of death? He's got my heart. And that's all He ever wanted in the first place.

Thanks to you, too, for listening, Hops.

Hope

[Hopalong]

(((((((((Hope)))))))))) 

He's got my heart.

You're welcome.

Hops

[Certain Hope]

(((((((((Hops)))))))))

Feels good!

Love, Hope