Now THIS I find amazing

[penelope]

sugarre,

Yes, I think you may have hit the nail right smack dab on the head.  I believe too that reallyme (like most of us here) likes attention, and when she feels she's not getting it, she'll go and say something negative or risque, to try to garner some.  And heck, it works (sometimes).  Often I've thought about responding: just wait a minute reallyme, hops will be along soon (but since I wasn't responding to her, I couldn't)

Maybe this seems harmless to her, but for some of us, it's terrifying.  It's worse now that I've said something and her reply has been: "HOW COULD I BE SCARY LITTLE OL ME COULDN'T DO A THING." (paraphrased, of course)  And gosh, I don't have an explanation, but maybe you're just triggering the right neurons in my brain that plug into the ol memory bank that says: BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP,< this is what your abusers used to do to you. >

Heck, I don't know how it works, but it works, that's all I'm saying.

Occasionally other people will trigger me too, and I get over it and forget for the most part.  I mean, I can't typically hold a grudge for over an hour.  Seriously, I forget.  I have a very trusting soul, that's what happens when you've lived life with little to zilch boundaries, the world is your friend (people have to keep reeling me back in cause I go back for more, unnecessarily).

But here, I think that I'd like to give reallyme a chance to explain, cause I don't know why but I have a hard time accepting that this has to and should go on like this.  I mean, the stakes are kind of high, I think.  There's potential to do a lot of damage here - on this board which is less about Learning about Ns, and more about Healing.  (just my opinion there)

bean

[Sela]

Hiya Bean:

I do want some sort of resolution, yes.  For me and possibly others here too.

I'm glad to hear that!  I'm hoping RM will answer my redundant question too.  Maybe it will help?  I don't think anyone here wants to gang up on anyone else or to be intimidating to anyone else but unless they say so, I'm only guessing.  That's my best bet!  You've said you don't want to gang up and that you want resolution.  I believe you.

if you're offering to mediate

Hmmmmm??  Am I?  Am I qualified for that?  Maybe a little?  I do actually like both of you and think it's possible to work this out.  I don't like to think of either person feeling either ganged up upon or intimidated.  I could try?  If you both want me to?  If it would help, I'd certainly be glad to try.  I'm no expert though but I'm not sure one has to be?  Maybe it would help?

I have to get off here now but I'll check back when I can to see what you both think?  Might not be until tomorow morning.  How about this?  How about waiting to see what RM has to say (if she chooses to post here)?

I have to admit.  It's scary to volunteer for such an undertaking.  But I'm trying to be brave too.

Sela

[penelope]

Penelope/B, I see elements of the characteristic traits that you have vocally said you dislike in RM in your posts, but only when you post as Penelope - that's my personal observation

jac - you have seen elements...

What?  Now this sounds like something my N mother would say to me.  Jac, what is your point of posting this to me?  I don't get it.  I really truly am confused about what you're saying to me here.  Did something I say hurt You.  If so, can you be specific.  If not, what's this vague reference to some behavior I purportedly show only when posting as penelope?  I don't buy it.  Cause reallyme says I'm "better" as penelope, and you thought I was better as bean.  -guess what, it's just a login script.  I only post as one person, and that's me. 

This isn't me playing penelope now, and before I was playing bean.  I am penelope bean (think of it as having two names, and before I was using my middle name).

Jac, I think you're confused.  I think you've had a lot of crap going on lately with the roomate situation, and I think you're losing touch.  I've seen a change in you..but.  I still recognize you as jac.

I think you're being a bit hard on a lot of folks here lately, starting with that post about how three individuals trigger you.  That's my observation of your behavior.  Ooooh.  Did it hurt to hear that?  I hope not, but if it did, can you imagine a little of how what you've said about my (seemingly changing) behavior might feel to me?

I think it's B.S., in other words. 

I have been in therapy for almost a year now.  So of course there are going to be changes.  But I've been on the same meds for two years, and nothing major is going on in my life.  So I don't see how I could be posting dramatically differently from bean to penelope.  I'm open to the idea of it though, so if you could come up with some specific examples that might help - but please, be kind.

pb

on edit:

hey jac,

People in pain can hurt - but it's also been my experience that people in pain can be a tremendous healing force for one another (I've seen it on this board in fact!)   

Something got you down lately?  You seem sort of - depressed.

I know what it's like to wear depression goggles, I wore them for many many years.  It's when you can only see a negative outcome, and you can't find room for the flip side of the coin.  There are lots of interpretations to events, in other words.  They don't all have to be gloomy.

People here don't create others' feelings.  The person who feels something creates the feeling within themselves - often due to a past experience.  So if the intention of people is good (which I think it is here for the most part), you can't fault a person if they accidentally cause pain of another.

Also, how can you be so sure that people are causing others pain?  If they say so, that's one thing.  But I don't often hear people say: "that hurt."  And typically when I've said it, you've ignored me.  eh?

So I don't think it's fair assuming we're all hurting others here.
pb

I feel like I'm chasing you all over the board here too jac.  Did you see this post (above) that I put on the other thread?  Cause if you're going to post and run, I'll just stop replying to you now.  Please let me know one way or another.

[penelope]

Sela -

Yes, I am game.  I'm pretty much willing to try anything - that's me, openminded.  If one thing doesn't work, I'll always try something else (I've already changed my handle, doggonit)

And yes, I agree, You're brave.   

Rather than just sitting back you've offered to take an active role - very responsible. 

If it turns out well or poorly, I hope in either case you come away with a feeling of courage, k?
 
bean

[penelope]

p.s. I think this is the trait of a true leader - even when it's scary, they lead anyway.

Hey, maybe it'll be contagious.  (wink wink)

[Sela]

Thanks Bean:

That's nice of you to say.  I don't really think I'm any more courageous than anyone else.  I think it's a choice to use the courage we all have, somewhere inside.  Sometimes, it's just too darn easy not to for me.  Does that make sense?

I'm glad you're open minded and willing to try something else.  I think we will all learn stuff, no matter what.

So what do you say RM?  When you check in here, will you consider answering the question I previously posted and give your decision here?  No worries either way.  I think it's a matter of choice and trust.

Yo!  I gotta run...potatoes boiling all over the place!!

   Sela

[Sugarre]

Maybe this seems harmless to her, but for some of us, it's terrifying  (Penelope)

Yes.  It is terrifying.  It's like asking those who have disabused us of our "voice" to come join us so we can parse their/our terminology.  She's a missionary with an agenda that is not politically correct to question unless we seem to be disparaging the new testament.  She's got it made.  And she has made available to me her phone number in case I wanted someone to talk to  .  PM me if you feel you would like to talk with her personally and I will send you the number. 

[reallyME]

    Re: Now THIS I find amazing
« Reply #1 on: Today at 12:15:05 AM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I made a mistake.  I admit it. 

ya know, in a weird way I'm glad that I said something about how you make me feel RM, cause if you really needed attention that badly, I'm happy to give you some.


ciao, bean
 

Well, this is the extent of the apology Penelope is able to give, and I accept, although I notice the alternate jab and daub that goes on afterwards.  I understand, Penelope, it's just who you are.  For whatever reason you ask me to comment to you and respond, even egging me on, and then when I do, you turn the tables saying "see? see? there's this big bully after me..." why? because you can't seem to handle my comments when they differ from your views on things.  You also can't seem to handle people who are very sure of where they stand.  Not my problem that you can't handle that; I"m not gonig to be voiceless around you or anyone else, however, I do my best to try and address issues and not attack people.  You will see me discussing people's behaviors on this board, just as they have done with mine, since that is what we are limited to on a text-only format.

I don't know you, except by your text.  I do know that you are a lot more reasonable-sounding under the PB name rather than just Bean, however.  I've noticed it too.  I have NOTHING against you as a person...only against your tactics of bait and switch that have been used toward me.

~Laura

[penelope]

Laura -

I am going to talk to you now very calmly and slowly, k?  I'm not upset.  Just concerned. 

You've PM'd Sugarre and given her your telephone number?  Do you know why that could be interpreted by some of us here as scary and inappropriate?  Cause we didn't come to this board to receive phone numbers, or offers to come stay with people for a week...for religious or spiritual reasons.  We came here for support and strength, in our time of need, to get help with N abuse.  That's all.  So when you offer your phone number and try to persuade people here to call you - and eventually visit you is implied, I think - that is scary to some.  Can you understand this? 

Some may not be strong enough to say this to you (I wasn't until today) but when you did this to me it FREAKED ME OUT (I wrote that in caps, cause I know you know what that means - it means, it's important).

What kind of apology would you like from me?  Cause some little nagging voice in the back of my head says you won't be happy until I come out to NewYork, is that where you said you live?  Or is it Illinois now?  Anyway, the nagging voice says you won't be happy until I come out there and visit you and allow you to show me Your Way, Your spiritual way.  Cause I think what you're looking for is to mentor someone - and I think you're aggressively recruiting here, on and off.  I'm not the only one with this theory, others have mentioned this too...

Again, this spooks me, big time.  There is a boundary violation going on at the mere mention of anything remotely close to meeting you - I never intend to do that, it would be Unsafe.  Do you understand that reallyme?  I think when you imply that it is of a Very Serious Nature.  My belief, k?

I'm not saying "see? see? there's this big bully after me..."  I'm saying - you're continuing to harm me over and over with mean words.  I know I said before I wouldn't leave this board.  But if you continue to respond to me in this manner, and if I learn you're harassing others, I may have to.  I think it's that serious now.

The following is not true:

you can't seem to handle my comments when they differ from your views on things.  You also can't seem to handle people who are very sure of where they stand.

Lot's of people's comments differ from mine.  For example, hope and I do not feel the same way about feminism - we can still talk civilly (even lightly) here.  I also disagree with others about religion and other things occasionally (the whole gay discussion), but I'm not having any serious problems with others here reallyme.  Just you.  As far as people who are sure of where they stand:  reallyme, I am a professional (engineer).  I work in Aerospace for a living.   Do you know what that means?  It means I fly around the country and visit other professionals as part of my job, I negotiate and solve problems of a technical nature; I fly about once a month...so I work with people who are very sure of where they stand, everyday. Sometimes they convince me of where they stand even.    That's how I learn.   I do not have any problem accepting people who are sure of themselves.  If I did, I would not be able to work in this field and give talks and other things I do for a living, everyday.  See, so I don't have a problem with people who are sure of themselves, confidence abounds, where I work, and in my interpersonal relationships.  Heck, I have a therapist who is quite sure of herself too.  I myself went to college reallyme, so that's not it - that I can't handle views different than mine.  I am very openminded, I've had many jobs in all walks of life reallyme, I've traveled all over this country as part of my job and have worked with various kinds of people.  I'm used to being around self-confident people, I work with mostly PhD's these days.  How more sure of yourself do you think people get?   

So I don't think it is that you are sure of yourself - that that's why I disagree with you - I think it is that I don't trust you.  I don't trust you and it is for a very good reason, I bet.  Cause I have pretty sharp instincts.  When I was robbed at gunpoint, I knew it was going to happen before it happened.  Ditto for the time I was working at a hotel in college and some dood came up to me and quick-changed me (walked away with $200 and I was left holding a sealed thank you card- when we opened it up it was full of paper).  You give me this same uneasy feeling reallyme.  Do you know you are doing that to me?  Do you know why?

So reallyme, it's not that I can't handle you being sure of yourself - I can handle that - I can't handle the words you keep throwing at me, and I don't like the way I've seen you treating others here - and to quote jac "I'm afraid someone might leave."  In fact, I know of at least 2 people who've said they will leave the board because of you reallyme.  So you are scaring some people, me included. 

Do you want to keep scaring them?  Continue doing what you're doing.  Do you want to talk about this and sort it out and come up with alteratives?  I think Sela may be able to help us there.  I would really like to know the purpose of handing out your phone number so freely, and why or why this might not be appropriate on this message board.  It sounds spooky and scary, definitely, to me. 

I"m not going to be voiceless around you or anyone else, however, I do my best to try and address issues and not attack people.

 
OK, good. 

You will see me discussing people's behaviors on this board, just as they have done with mine, since that is what we are limited to on a text-only format.

I don't think I've discussed your behaviors, but if I have I'm sorry.  If others keep doing so, can you bring it up with them?  Other than saying what you've done to ME, I did not say much after our initial conflict.  K?  You can go back and look if you're not sure about this, but I'm pretty sure.  That's why I feel you're "picking on me."  cause I don't know what I've done to deserve this wrath from you.  Hops can say something to you, and you take it OK.  I changed my name to Penelope and had no problems with you.  So I think you became fixated on Bean, for some reason.  If you'd like to explore why, I encourage you to do so.  But you need to do it in a way that's not scary for others here, OK?

I don't know you, except by your text.  I do know that you are a lot more reasonable-sounding under the PB name rather than just Bean, however.  I've noticed it too.  I have NOTHING against you as a person...only against your tactics of bait and switch that have been used toward me.

  I will take this criticism of yours and think about it because it might be valid.  I don't think it is, but I'll consider what you might mean by this.  Can you elaborate?   I think you mean I'm trying to get people here "on my side?"  If that's what you mean, it's the farthest thing from my mind to get people here to contact me outside of this board.  That would be an invasion of their privacy, I think.  People come to this board with the preconception that they won't be harassed in that way (I do anyway).  So I would never imply that to anyone here, that I wanted to meet them in person, or that they should call me. 

I have 3D people I interact with, I don't think it's safe to meet people from this board in person.  Other message boards, that have different themes, is a whole nother story.  But this one?  It is not appropriate to invite people for spiritual counseling or PM people and tell them to call you, I don't think.  So what are my tactics of 'bait and switch' exactly, reallyme, cause I'm not following you.  You need to just spell it out for me so I understand, cause I'm not understanding what I'm doing that falls under this category.  Can you say what it is you think I'm doing?

Thanks,


pb

[penelope]

Can you also explain what the two little winks you posted meant, after I posted this:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made a mistake.  I admit it. 

ya know, in a weird way I'm glad that I said something about how you make me feel RM, cause if you really needed attention that badly, I'm happy to give you some.

to me, I took that to mean that you think I do the same thing?  Post just to get attention, to get people riled up, and you're admitting (sort of) to doing this?  Is this correct?


 
 

   
 
 

[reallyME]

Ah Penelope,

I really have become the thing you most fear and that's RIDICULOUS!

You've PM'd Sugarre and given her your telephone number?  Do you know why that could be interpreted by some of us here as scary and inappropriate?  Cause we didn't come to this board to receive phone numbers, or offers to come stay with people for a week...for religious or spiritual reasons.  We came here for support and strength, in our time of need, to get help with N abuse.  That's all.  So when you offer your phone number and try to persuade people here to call you - and eventually visit you is implied, I think - that is scary to some.  Can you understand this? 

First of all, what is this of your business?  It's between that person and me.

Secondly, thanks so much for breaking trust, Sugarre.  I appreciate that a lot (yes, sarcasm here, cause I'm not happy when trust is violated like this with me)

Thirdly, do I know my giving my number could be scary and inappropriate?  Scary?  that's about WHO?  not me.  Unless someone TELLS me that scares them, I DO NOT READ MINDS and to expect me to, is NARCISSISM ("you should have KNOWN THAT WOULD SCARE ME") 

INappropriate?  It's MY phone number to give to whom I choose.  WHere is that inappropriate?

Cause we didn't come to this board to receive phone numbers, or offers to come stay with people for a week...for religious or spiritual reasons.  We came here for support and strength, in our time of need, to get help with N abuse. 

So now you are the voice on the voicelessness board FOR the voiceless?  not sure that's how this whole thing is supposed to work, PB.  Does this not make you an enabler for those who choose not to speak for themselves?  Is this a healing thing for others or a hindering one, having you tell me what THEY came here for, because your other tactics are not working against me.

and as far as me trying to PERSUADE anyone to call me?  Not hardly.  I was under the impression that she and I had an understanding between us of having formed a friendship.  Why she called YOU regarding something in a PRIVATE MESSAGE (which obviously are not private anymore on the internet), is BEYOND ME and VERY RUDE ON HER PART AS WELL AS A BREACH OF ANY TRUST THAT MIGHT HAVE FORMED EVENTUALLY!

[penelope]

ya know, everytime I politely try to talk to you, you freak out.

This is not normal RM.  This is a sign of a psychotic. 

Dr. G, can I say that?  I'm just concerned.

OK, I exit now.  Let Dr. G sort this one out.

[reallyME]

ya know, everytime I politely try to talk to you, you freak out.

This is not normal RM.  This is a sign of a psychotic. 

Dr. G, can I say that?  I'm just concerned.

OK, I exit now.  Let Dr. G sort this one out.

POLITELY?  PLEASE DO DEFINE THIS FOR ME:

I am not psychotic and I REBUKE that in Jesus' name.  I have the mind of Christ, thank you very much.

I do not pry into people's private business, Penelope (giving phone number to Sugarre)
I do not gaslight people...trying to make ME think I am the one who is crazy, so you can come out shining in the end
I do not bait n switch, double-bind...telling people one thing and then flipping it the other way
I do not say one thing in public and another behind the scenes in private.

Am IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII PSYCHOTIC? 

This behavior does NOT shine in my eyes and I would like to say HOW DARE you, but I think you are working through your issues so I will leave the rest up to your T to help you with.

Blessya

[penelope]

Ah, criticism is so very hard to accept isn't it?

I kinda freak out when people give it to me too - unwanted.  So I'll just stop now.

signing off reallyme, you can calm down now

[Anansi]

Sela, your intro to your 'what do you want' question triggered a smile over here, thanks; and thanks Jacmac for your wisdom and teaching via 'blue face' image in the reminder of healing following conflict.  I tried to follow the discussion but got lost - I might not of said it before but I can only follow a few posts at a time, if I get through one thread, I'm lucky - yeah, ADD, I know.

Wish everyone may grow from whatever it is I, we are going thru, 
Anansi

[shadowwork]  Are there any shadows or underlying needs being expressed in this post?  Yes, I want to be included somehow (need for connection, inclusion); I project admiration onto Jacmac for her sharp perception and ability and courage to express it.  I appreciate her detective work (under:  I hope maybe she'll see me and help me sometime); I told about ADD (under:  I seek understanding and forgiveness for not being able to keep up); shadow for offering [shadowwork]:  yeah, perahaps a seed - what if everyone included their shadows and unders in most of what they post?  shadow of this question:  yeah, I'm annoyed that many times, I don't really know what people's intentions are and I feel frustrated trying to mind read or second guess, there are only words here, no body language, no tones, no facial expressions, so yeah, I do wish most posts could include shadowwork confessions, shadow of this:  yeah, I want to know my own shadows more! enough for now