Dating

[WRITE]

morning Brigid!

It really is useful to hear from the people who have broken patterns and found themselves someone ( dare I say ) 'normal' to love.
Not perfect...but not so messed up it's visible from outer space- to anyone but us!

Dog-walk....back later.

[Certain Hope]

Hi,

  In the article I posted re: communication styles in romantic relationships, I found this link which appears to have some solid, helpful info on the topic of love, dating, etc.... from "Rinatta Paries ~ The Love Coach"  (lol... I know, but it's actually a decent site)
There's a newsletter, tips, quizzes ... entertaining and educational.

Anyhow, if anyone is interested:    http://www.whatittakes.com/

Here's a sample:   
    Let's revisit the idea of attracting your ideal partner and creating your ideal relationship. After all, that is what we all really want - relationships that are more love than work, relationships that are full of true connection. These are the ten steps to get you to that kind of relationship...     

  It's no surprise that step #1 is letting go of the past!

Happy reading...
Hope
 

[Anansi]

Thank you for participating in the "Why woman love oafs question."  The "answer" (as heard on the radio) is because these guys can hold/contain what's thrown at them.  These "unmovable" men don't react to a woman's projections.  Their stubbornness serves as a kind of holding.  If she were with a snag (sensitive new age guy), he may react with his feelings and things may get chaotic.  Of course this "answer" is referring to dysfunctional relationships.  Well, whaddaya think?  It's a different perspective isn't it?  I found this answer conflicting to me because it suggests to me to see something positive in my father's stone coldness towards my mother's paranoid hysterics.  I am currently struggling with this answer as I bear deep pain of his ice violence towards me. 

By Write:
"It really is useful to hear from the people who have broken patterns and found themselves someone (dare I say) 'normal' to love"
Amen.
"I don't even want to live with a drinker any more pb, if someone can't relax and have a fun time without a glass in their hand, I'm just not interested."
I'm so glad to read this because it gives me hope since I don't drink. 

I feel sad because I want to reply and acknowledge more of what has been said in this and other threads.

I'm grateful to everybody here on this board who have shown connections and kindness to me. 

Anansi

[Hopalong]

Anansi,
"Ice violence". I am terribly sorry.

May I give you a smile?

I was thinking the reason women fall for oafs is that when they're big, oafs are often much better at bringing home the mastodon burgers.

(I don't want to admit that though.)

Hops

[Jona22]

I believe that before we can make a wise choice when choosing a mate we need to know ourselves well.  One of the things that helps a relationship work for both parties is compatable character values.  A person that values honesty to a high degree is not likely to be happy with a person that believes it is ok to cheat on some things.  In my opninion this is more important than having common interests.

One of the things that I kept in mind when I was dating is:  "Having no mate is better than having a bad mate or the wrong mate for me."


I think people forget that there is an abundant supply of single people of all ages and this allows a person to actuallly make a choice.  When I was dating, there were times when I didn't have anyone and it caused me to think that maybe I should have hung on to that guy that I saw as unsuitable.  Fortunately, I didn't hang on to that thought for long.  Someone else always came along eventually.  It seemed like it was feast or famine.

I know women, including my husband's ex-wife, that think because they are in their 50's there is no hope of finding someone so they don't even try.  It just isn't true.  I also know a man, my husband's best friend, who is in his 50's that thinks there is no hope.  Now I know there is a woman in this community that would just love to be in a relationship with this man and one that would be suitable for him.  Do I know who she is?  No.  Wherever she is, she is probably complaining that there just aren't any good men out there.  All the good ones are married.

I think the "red flag" discussion is interesting.  I will have to put my brain in gear and think of some.

[Certain Hope]

Dear Anansi,

   At the risk of exposing some of my own stereotypical thinking and old fashioned notions... I've never thought of the sort of unmoveable man you describe as an oaf, really. To me, that's just what it means to be male... a "real man". I value the unshakeability of a man who won't take my projections and launch into orbit with me on emotional issues. As much as I want him to really hear my heart and try to understand, I don't expect or want him to become "female" for me. My own thinking about this springs from my acceptance of (yes, literally) the Biblical account of the creation of mankind, in which we're told that God said, "It is not good that man should be alone" and then proceeded to put Adam into a deep sleep, remove one of his ribs, and ~ poof ~ Adam looked at this Eve, created out of him, and said, "Whoa, man!!"  ahem... anyhow...
  ((((((Anansi)))))) I'm sorry that your father has been a stone toward you. My Dad is no stone, but he definitely has an inability to deal with strong emotions. He uses humor (often inappropriately) to deflect anything that might threaten his commitment to avoid unpleasant feelings. I've tended to follow his example in that way. He's a lifelong drinker, too, and considering that he's been married to my mother for 58 years, I can understand that. People develop all sorts of ways to protect themselves from what they find overwhelming. More and more I'm finding that it's in acceptance that peace is found. I know that you and I don't believe the same, Anansi, but I hope you don't mind if I share this with you (by Amy Carmichael):

In Acceptance Lieth Peace

He said, "I will forget the dying faces;
The empty places,
They shall be filled again.
O voices mourning deep within me, cease.'
But vain the word; vain, vain;
Not in forgetting lieth peace.

He said, 'I will crowd action upon action,
The strife of faction
Shall stir me and sustain;
O tears that drown the fire of manhood, cease.'
But vain the word; vain, vain;
Not in endeavor lieth peace.

He said 'I will withdraw me and be quiet,
Why meddle in life's riot?
Shut be my door to pain.
Desire, thou dost befool me, thou shalt cease.'
But vain the word; vain, vain;
Not in aloofness lieth peace.

He said, 'I will submit; I am defeated.
God hath depleted
My life of its rich gain,
O futile murmurings, why will ye not cease?'
But vain the word; vain, vain;
Not in submission lieth peace.

He said, 'I will accept the breaking sorrow
Which God tomorrow
Will to His son explain.'
Then did the turmoil deep within him cease.
Not vain the word, not vain;
For in acceptance lieth peace.

With love,
Hope

[Brigid]

I find the whole discussion about Manly men and New Age or Renaissance or however you wish to term them men, to be fascinating.  I have read and heard several interviews recently, that women have decided now that they would prefer to have a man who is confident and probably somewhat of an "oaf" to one who has five different hair and skin products and dresses in designer jeans, but who might also be "sensitive" and enjoy talking about his feelings.

I think the same could be said for what men want in a woman (at least one they would choose to spend their life with).  They want her to be confident and comfortable with who she is, but still be a girly girl, who cares about having sex appeal, when it is appropriate, and can lean on her guy for support when necessary, without feeling weak and needy.

I believe that we were made differently for a reason.  I think there has been too much effort to make us generic and homogeneous.  There will always be men who have more feminine traits and women with more masculine traits--and they won't always be homosexual.  But to try to expect those traits to come naturally is mostly going to be unnatural for the opposite sex.  We should embrace the differences and find a way to coexist peacefully without trying to guilt the other side into our way of doing or thinking about things.

Just my 2 cents, for what its worth.

Brigid

[Portia]

Hi H&H , I’m okay, thank you. I hope you are too….?

Anansi,

I hope what I’m going to say isn’t ‘too much’. Your post got me thinking.

Thank you for participating in the "Why woman love oafs question."  The "answer" (as heard on the radio) is because these guys can hold/contain what's thrown at them.  These "unmovable" men don't react to a woman's projections.  Their stubbornness serves as a kind of holding.  If she were with a snag (sensitive new age guy), he may react with his feelings and things may get chaotic.  Of course this "answer" is referring to dysfunctional relationships. 

Maybe the question – why women love oafs – kind of skews the answers? If the question was – why do they stay with oafs – the answers may have been, they stay because they choose to, they get something from the relationship.

I felt ‘brought up short’ by the idea of dysfunctional relationships. In a way, these relationships – call them co-dependent or whatever – are they actually not functioning, or are they functioning in a way that meets the needs of those involved? We (those involved in the therapy/help movement) talk about dysfunctional as though there exists a perfect way to function, the perfect relationship (is this implied or am I seeing things wrongly?). The thing is, people aren’t perfect and relationships can help people balance out the excessive parts of themselves, or they can offer a way to get needs met (think of the relationships which operate on the basis of one partner being the ‘parent’ and the other the ‘child’). Because something is the way it is, is it wrong? I’m not sure any more.

Well, whaddaya think?  It's a different perspective isn't it?  I found this answer conflicting to me because it suggests to me to see something positive in my father's stone coldness towards my mother's paranoid hysterics.

Well, people generally aren’t all bad or good, black or white? Perhaps there was something positive in that relationship. Perhaps your mother’s behaviour in some part caused your father to become colder? I don’t know. I guess they both found a way of staying together. My mother and stepfather found a way of staying together and in retrospect, my stepfather’s cultish control-freakery, whilst it had a rotten effect on me, actually stopped my mother going off the rails. If she had of done, I don’t know what my life might have been like, possibly worse than it was (as she would have had custody of me). Can you imagine what your life may have been like if your parents had separated and you’d stayed with your mother? (Better, worse, different?)

 I am currently struggling with this answer as I bear deep pain of his ice violence towards me.

I’m sorry and sad that you are bearing that pain. The way I see families, children feel as though it was all one big relationship, all entwined together. I guess parents see it differently. There are several relationships and the one between the parents is really nothing to do with the child. How the parents relate to each other pre-dates the child; the child is a pawn in the game if you like, but not the cause of the game. How your father related to your mother is separate to his relationship with you; you are separate to ‘them’. I don’t know but I guess your father – and mother – didn’t see ‘you’ at all; I imagine they were too caught up in the game of their relationship, and you were in the crossfire, used and abused and not able to be a separate self. I’m projecting somewhat, this is my experience. Your bear the deep pain of his ice violence and that is awful. His ice violence served a purpose with your mother: unfortunately he did not know you and gave you similar treatment. It’s sad that he didn’t know you, for it is plain to me that you are not like your mother. I imagine growing up in such a family caused you to become an exceptionally sensitive (in a good way) and empathic person – qualities which aren’t too valued in our societies but which some will value immensely. I value them immensely.

Gosh I don’t know what or why I decided to type all this. I guess it’s about me as much as about your words Anansi. I wish your pain to lessen.   

[Hopalong]

Portia,
Your quizzical and consistent compassion, clear-eyed and unfooled, is wisdom, imo.

Somehow your childhood took you toward empathy and a capacity to hold things in a clear light.
To have trust that uncertainty holds compassion...I can't say it right but I am so glad you went so deep in answering Anansi's post.

Hops

[Portia]

Hops....thank you so much for your kind, generous words which you didn't have to say, which you chose to say....and your time to say it, thank you for your time and attention....(gulp). Hey, intimacy alert!   'clear light' sometimes it feels so, sometimes I know it isn't.

Anansi, I hope what I've said is okay with you, because I often do this - get into a point - and think, what if I've gone 'too far', what if it's too much too soon....but that's pre-judging your ability to think for yourself and therefore somewhat ....controlling/superior..so I let it go and think: you can think for yourself, we all can, I trust that!

[WRITE]

So- what do you do if you start the dating and somewhere it becomes unravelled and it's not working out?

At what point do I move on from something, I'm not talking 'dealbreakers' like violence or poor hygiene etc
What if it just isn't fun or you meet someone you like better or something?

I can sense I am really anxious about this, because I never did much letting go of love relationships until recently.

And even though my new friend wants to 'take things slowly' I sense until we actually 'take the plunge' and commit to a relationship I can't tell whether things will work on any level either...

[Hops]

Write, I can so relate to that anxiety.

I sense until we actually 'take the plunge' and commit to a relationship

Here's my thought--challenge this assumption you've made and:

Clutch Judith Sills to your chest.

Remember that in many ways, your mind will rationalize an urgency to move out of the present and "lock up" the future. That's the anxiety saying, I cannot tolerate the process of this relationship, so I must must must move it into a product.

It's so understandable. Who doesn't want safety?

But you have more strength than you realize.
Practicing presentness...say, for six months (you can allow yourself a personal deadline to re-evaluate)...but forgetting it until then so you are present...will help you, I believe.

(And this is my vicarious dry run. I haven't done it yet. But it's exactly what I need to do too,
once I venture out again.)

Lead the way, but just one day at a time!
Trust yourself. Trust time.

Hugs,
Hops

[WRITE]

Clutch Judith Sills to your chest.

I'd prefer to clutch him to my chest! but with an inbuilt get-out-of-commitment clause if things don't work....

Thanks H, I think I can see it more clearly now in my reaction to what you wrote.

You see, I am really enjoying the love process, even the ambivalence, always been difficult for me.

But I look at my ex and how tricky it's been to extricate myself kindly from him. That's the process I am not trusting and need to accept the 'one day at a time' maybe? Because I am already thinking 'maybe being single forever is better than making a big mistake and feeling responsible for someone forever?' ( alright maybe not forever, but a really long time...)

What do you think about the process when it's time to let go and you need to change a relationship or leave it?

Am I just paranoid about having another relationship like my ex?

[Hopalong]

I'd prefer to clutch him to my chest!

    (thank you, hee!)


 

but with an inbuilt get-out-of-commitment clause if things don't work....

You are SO conscientious. You are honorable.
I think all you need to do is tell the truth.

And don't don't don't (im never-pushy ho) don't make a commitment prematurely.

Tot it up, hon. How long have you been involved? Is there some law that says that in less than a year (do I remember correctly less than 6 months?) -- we're supposed to know?

I think (not from any successful experience yet, just the stacks, nay, mountains, nay highways-to-heaven, of relationship books I devoured after I hit bottom) that:

--you are feeling completely understandable ambivalence and anxiety
--this can be part of getting close to someone
--what cures it is keeping your own foot firmly on the brake
--you need to accept that you are a GOOD person, and that the other person is receiving a GIFT because you are close to him, and that you deserve WHATEVER PACE IS NECESSARY FOR YOU.

Why wouldn't you be spooked about a new commitment? That means, it's too early to be focusing on making one.

Try to keep your radar on. Not in suspicion, in self-respect, self-love, self-responsibility.

You know you are not evil or bad to have finally called it quits with a marriage that could no longer breathe and grow.

There is no ball and chain awaiting you. You are allowed to have love, and to take time. You deserve to enjoy this.

The simplest thing, is to just say, I need to take a lot of time with this. Honesty works. Choices. Stepping forward, stepping back, consulting yourself, feeling how it feels, and asking yourself, what direction is feeling like a new way of loving myself? What direction is feeling like repetition compulsion or codependency?

You can ask in any little moment. They will add to a time when you know what to do.

love,
Hops

[Anansi]

Dear Portia,

I'm sorry for my very late reply.  In fact, I felt moved that you wrote to me.  No one has ever written a full letter to me in my life, so in one way, I'm moved and in another I feel myself to be an alien from Pluto as I am reminded that I'm so cut off from people.  You've offered me a hairline crack, hence my head says hope for me that one person thought enough of me to write out a whole letter to me.   You wondered why you wrote to me.  I appreciate you saying this because it lets me feel that you sensed something in me that needed a deeper connection.  I don't want to expect that things will get better for me, so I remain a present gratitude for your writing to me.  I'm really in God's hands these days, I've only ever known the valley of darkness.  I only have one photo of me as child and you can't imagine how sad I look in it.
I still fantasize that I'll be saved by one woman who can see me and love me.  I know I need to let this fantasy go and I'm trying.
Thank you again for thinking of me and sending me your blessings and love. 

Anansi