Dating

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya all

I've just come back from meeting up with two girlfriends tonight... one of them is single and the other has been seeing a guy for a few months.  (I'm the old married woman of the bunch  )

It was interesting as my single friend is starting to get back into dating again after a few years of being single, and my other friend went on quite a few dates before she met this guy.  She was saying about the various dates she had been on, and how one guy she met up with was telling her about his ex who had an incestuous family.  My friends reaction was if someone tells you this on a first date it was a big no no, but she said something that really made me think of this place.  About how he didn't have anything good to say about anyone and everything was always someone else's fault.  She said she came away thinking, nope, don't want to see this guy again.  My single friend was asking her advice, and she said, trust your instincts, trust your gut feeling... if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't.

I felt so glad as from reading here I know this is quite a large red flag, and I'm so glad my friend was able to see it, and now she's met someone who is really suited to her, who treats her with a great deal of love and respect.

So thought I'd start a dating thread, where red flags, disastrous dates and great dates could be discussed if you would like to.

H&H xx

[portia guest]

Hiya H&H. I saw your post last night and have thought about it since. I've reached the conclusion that other than when i was very young - age 12-14 - I haven't been on what I'd think of as a 'date'! I sort of drifted into relationships and if there was any 'dating' it was like "let's go to the pub tomorrow" (is that a date?).

About how he didn't have anything good to say about anyone and everything was always someone else's fault.
So many folks can be like this it seems (or maybe I've met lots?) and to me, well, I just get bored very quickly. If they don't have anything positive to say I ...drift away!

Dating though, it made me think about choices, making choices actively rather than just 'going along' with someone else. I think I've done the latter more, in some areas of life. I guess also I haven't looked for a man as a potential life-time mate as such; I've been way too conditioned and have adopted a sceptical view about 'romantic' relationships. I like 'friends' more than mates/lovers etc. Is there a big difference? I don't know. I read that asked to give up either their best friends or their man (a woman's magazine reports), a big proportion of women would give up their man because they'd rather have their female friends to talk to (and they don't talk in the same way with their men) - which I found a pretty sad reflection of (heterosexual) 'relationships' today. Or maybe it's the women they asked who are sad. What gets me is that this stuff gets reported as though it's 'normal'. I don't think it's normal!

[WRITE]

 I guess also I haven't looked for a man as a potential life-time mate as such

perfect synchronicity! I was thinking about this earlier.

I think it's perfectly ok for someone to subtly signal their anxieties on the first 2/3 dates eg. I am going through a divorce...wary of relationships...want to take things slowly etc
But offloading, complaining or blaming- red flags as you say.

Writing the list of qualities in your desired partner is a powerful way of identifying what you need to address in yourself too ( or it was for me! ) and makign you examine what really is important to you and what you're getting distracted with...

I never really realised I could choose a life-time partner, I guess I sort-of thought you had to take what comes along  or maybe I just wasn't ready to work on myself enough to be able to be confident that what I was asking for I was able to give too?

The book Hopalong recommended 'A Fine Romance' is excellent for describing the process of dating, in particular that 'switch' thing where you're setting up a balance of the relationship and which used to totally freak me out until I understood it wasn't rejection, just defining the relationship.

[ANewSheriff]

Hello H&H, Portia, and WRITE,

The timing of this is interesting.  Yesterday I talked to an old friend who lost his longtime girlfriend just over a year ago.  He is just now starting to think about dating again.  He mentioned a few women that he found intriguing and then began to list off things about each one that made them unsuitable.  He said, "I sound so picky."  I told him that he has reached an age in which he knows some of the qualities he would appreciate in a mate and some, uhh - maybe not so much.

He is 47 so he does not want someone with small children.  Understandable.  His girlfriend was a heavy smoker.  He does not want to be with a smoker.  I get that, too.  At a certain age and after spending time in long term relationships, I think it is normal and healthy to "choose" as WRITE suggests.   

Good topic.  Makes me very glad I am happily married. 

ANewSheriff   

[movinon]

Great topic.

I LOVE that I know I have choices now - "Who woulda thunk it?"

I am actually beginning to come up with a dating plan.  I won't be dating until February at least (that's what works for ME).  I have no desire to repeat the mistakes I've made in my past and therefore am giving myself the gift of TIME as well to fix my broken picker. 

I also have 3 children to consider in the whole mix of it and they absolutely MUST come first. 

Let's see, I have to have soemone who is emotionally present, feeds my soul (as opposed to sucking me dry or taking all the time), knows how to get some of their needs met outside of the relationship, flexibility, is honest and trustworthy.

The "would-likes", although not written in stone are non-smoker, animal-lover, peace lover (hippi-types preferred), independent , loving, HUMOROUS,will love my children.

Man, this sounds like a dating ad.  It's a step for me to begin to put some of my vulnerability back onto the board.

Thanks for getting the old brain going again!

Movinon

[penelope]

I feel like I could write the book.  pb's Dating Red Flags:

1.  If he's drunk when he picks you up on date #1, 2, 3, or 4.  Run.  (If he's wearing mountain climbing shoes (the tight ones that look like elf shoes, impossible to walk in for any length of time) when he picks you up for the date, that means he's drunk).

2.  If you find empty pill bottles in his trashcan (especially with other's names on them) and they look like controlled substances/narcotics.  Run.

3.  If he's stoned when he picks you up on date #1, 2, 3, or 4.  Run.

4.  If he mentions bisexuality and that it's No Big Deal or something to that affect on date #1, 2, 3, or 4.  Run.

5.  If he is 2 hours late picking you up to go hiking cause he's organizing his backpack, he's OCD.  (Not that there's anything wrong with this, especially if his case is mild, but think hard about if you could really stand to live with someone like this...)  I'd run.

6.  If he constantly projects stuff his ex-girlfriend used to do to him onto you, not seeming to recognize you're not her.  Run.

7.  If you find empty alcohol bottles stashed all over the house in weird places, he's a closet alcoholic.  Run.

8.  He constantly has funny "beer breath."  Run.

9.  He has lady "friends" that call at all hours of the day and night.  Run.

10.  He tries to get too physical on date #1, 2, 3, or 4.  Run.

11.  While listening or attempting to listen to your stories gets constantly annoyed and says things like "Well That's Stupid," *pfffffffffffffffffft*  (insecure)  Run

12.  Rear ends somebody leaving a restaraunt after drinking what you observed to be a bit too much alcohol while on date #1.  Run.

13.  Gets in a fight and puts someone in the hospital whilst on a date with you (you go to a party together).  Run.

 
These are my red flags, others may be different.  I'm sensitized to these from bad experience. ick 

pb

[WRITE]

Sorry you had such a rough time Penelope.

I've been thinking about alcohol earlier. At dinner with friends this guy who is really nice unexpectedly brought booze - 2 huge bottles, and proceeded to get quite drunk even though he has a long drive home.

He's quite cute and seems a nice guy but I wouldn't be interested in a drinker either, makes me feel a bit hypocritical in a way after all the drinking I've done in my life, but it's just a huge turn-off to me now.

[dandylife]

Well, I once dated this guy who felt safe since he long ago dated my sister. I ran into him at my cousin's 40th birthday party, so also had many folks "in common". We talked for maybe 10 minutes around the beer keg. Later on I talked with another gentelman at the same party and witnessed the first guy stalking off, apparently upset that I was talking with someone else. Wow, did he attach quickly!

He came back shortly after and apologized sweetly, and said wow must have been affected by all the drinks. Was just so into you.

first red flag.

Anyway, I went for drinks with him and my sister (again feeling safe). She and I both kinda pistols, so at the very packed bar we talked and joked with guys along the narrow corridor the bathroom. When we returned to the table, once again this guy was pissed off, jealous, possessive, whatever. But not happy at all having seen me and my sister "cavorting" with guys.

2nd red flag.

I actually decided to see him again. We went again for drinks and ended up kissing at the end of the "date". I sent him home. He had a hard time leaving.

3rd red flag.

Next day i was busy working (I work from my home). He called and I screened the call, letting it go to voicemail. Shortly after I get a call on caller id which shows up as a payphone. I take it. It's him. He says, "So I'm not good enough for you to answer your phone, huh? I saw you in there. I knew you were there. When it's not me on the caller id you pick up????" This said extremely hostile.

I said. "Sorry, I don't respond to this. You're way out of line. Don't call again."

I never saw him after that.

I have no idea if he has followed me, or watched me or what. I have a feeling........


Watch those red flags!!!!

K.

[Anansi]

Just heard on the radio someone saying why so many woman love and marry "oafs" (the unmoveable ones):  Can you guess what they said?

I'll give the "answer" tomorrow.

Anansi

[penelope]

Anansi - cause they want to change them!!!



hey write - alcohol is not a big deal until you live with an alcoholic.  Then, it's a major deal.  I've dated a lot and never met an "alcoholic" (a true one) until the one I described in 1/2/7 (same guy, different red flags).  Physical addiction to alcohol is Scary.  Nothing can come between that person and their alcohol, least of all You.  I put myself in a very bad situation there, I will never do that again.  Oh, and he drank Every day I knew him (he could not go one day without a drink) for the 2 years we dated/lived together. Another red flag - if they cannot give up their addiction, even temporarily...(I know it was codependent of me to get involved, I did not think it was a big deal either, the drinking). Living hell, living with an alcoholic and covering up for them....  I do not wish it on anyone.  Worse than an N cause he was sometimes sweet and I felt bad for him.

Besides this lovely addiction, he also had an addiction to sleeping pills, pornography (couldn't hide it since he passed out in front of the TV nearly every night after I'd gone to bed, with the DVD still in the player), and possibly prescription drugs.  Did I mention he was a doctor?  So, heed those warnings.  No one should have to give up their life for someone else's problems.

((((((write))))))) you will pick wisely, you're healthy.  I was not when I got into that relationship.

pb

[Healing&Hopeful]

Hiya all

Portia - hi chick, how are you? 
I read that asked to give up either their best friends or their man (a woman's magazine reports), a big proportion of women would give up their man because they'd rather have their female friends to talk to (and they don't talk in the same way with their men) - which I found a pretty sad reflection of (heterosexual) 'relationships' today. Or maybe it's the women they asked who are sad. What gets me is that this stuff gets reported as though it's 'normal'. I don't think it's normal!
I agree with you, it is a sad reflection, but reading this does give me a warm glow inside that I don't feel like this with my H.

Write - I love what you said here want to take things slowly  And why shouldn't you, plus any guy of value will do this.  This is what my friend has done with her current boyfriend and she's happy because she knows she hasn't rushed into anything.  Plus I also think this can show how a guy you meet is.... if you value me you will appreciate that I want to take things slowly and work with me on this.  If you don't, you'll push me into a relationship before I'm really ready.

Pb - another one is you meet up on date 2/3 and he falls asleep!  Yes I was with an alcoholic too, for a year.  I know what you mean about the pornography also...  I had British Telecom ringing me up to ask if I was aware sex line calls were being made from my phone.  Can you imagine how embarrassing that is?  £90 of calls in a month, in my name!  When I confronted him, he said someone has been tapping into our phone line (We lived above a country pub that had no neighbours!!!).  But you do wonder, maybe they are telling the truth, maybe I should give him the benefit of the doubt.

Write/ANS - you both picked up on something that I hadn't thought about... it was this I never really realised I could choose a life-time partner, I guess I sort-of thought you had to take what comes along  I was with a nice guy for 3 years and then we split up, afterwards I really thought I'd had my chance and blew it, so then I had to settle for second best.  You've cocked up, it's your own fault and you've got no one to blame but yourself!  Thank goodness I know differently now, and my H is a million times better than the other nice guy I dated.

Dandylife - "Sorry, I don't respond to this. You're way out of line. Don't call again."  This is brilliant... to me this says this is my boundary, don't cross it.  Good for you.

Anansi - yes, like pb, because they think they can change them?

Take care all

H&H xx

[Certain Hope]

 Anansi,

 Re:  why so many woman love and marry "oafs" (the unmoveable ones): 

Maybe their dad/ father figure is an oaf and so they think this is the norm? I did.

DandyLife,
 
   In the very short periods of time in my life when I've not been married (oh, for the sense to know when to say when!!) I seem to have been a magnet for the demanding, controlling, possessive sorts. I've dismissed the more vocal ones in short order, but there's another type that's gotten by me in the past and that's the man who is always there to help, or comes bearing gifts. When that possessive control factor is veiled behind a big smile and all manner of solicitation, it can be alot harder to identify. Wish I'd known then...  but live and learn.

Pb, can't get the image of those elf shoes outta my head! Hugs.

With love,
Hope

[WRITE]

afterwards I really thought I'd had my chance and blew it

The 'A Fine Romance ' book goes into all this negative self-talk too: ' I blew it, I always do' type thing, it's a really good book for the details.

why so many woman love and marry "oafs"

I think there are many reasons Anansi.
Wen I first knew my husband we were at school, his mother was dying with cancer, my mother was involved with her boss at work and eventually left my father after a tumultuous few months rowing etc.
It was like we were the only kids going through all this trauma whilst everyone else was living the normals highs and lows of teen life, we were naturally drawn to each other for comfort and support and serious conversation.
He fell apart after his mother's death, and my father put me under increasing pressure after my mother's departure...he went on to become increasingly N and bury himself in his career whilst I developed more and more stress-related illnesses and increasingly severe mood swings.

Even now we are incredibly protective and supportive of each other going back 25 years, and that's why we married the 2nd time: I could not find another partner with whom I felt that incredible 'bond'.
 
Maybe if we'd had more receptive remaining fathers, or better relationships with our mothers, or access to therapy...we would have been healthier and stood a better chance of the marriage working out, but as it was, based on this enmeshment of two traumatised teenagers, it all got pretty messy.

[Brigid]

I never really realised I could choose a life-time partner, I guess I sort-of thought you had to take what comes along  Confused or maybe I just wasn't ready to work on myself enough to be able to be confident that what I was asking for I was able to give too?

This was me, too.  I never valued myself enough to think I had choices.  The first man who wanted me, I stuck with--twice.  In between husband 1 and 2, I never dated anyone else but husband 2.  I always felt like I was trying to fit a square peg into a round hole in that marriage, as we never really meshed with each other, but I continued to tell myself that I was lucky to have such a nice guy, who would never do anything to hurt me, our children or our marriage.  YIKES!!  How stupid and blind was I?

Finally, on this divorce go-around, and only with the help of my therapist, I stopped feeling desperate to have a relationship, learned to love myself first before entertaining the idea of loving someone else, which finally allowed me to feel worthy of a good relationship. I went into the dating process with eyes wide open, and a long list of deal breakers and desirable traits, with the promise to myself that I wouldn't compromise.

I feel very blessed to have found someone who has all the really important traits I sought.  He's certainly not perfect (he's a guy, so that goes with the territory--sorry Mud  ), but in all that really matters, he is perfect.

Anansi,

As to why so many women marry "oafs"--I would agree about the fixing part, and it probably has to do with their own fathers.  That was certainly the case with me.

I would say it is the same reason they say so many men marry "bitches."  They married their mothers.

I'm dying to hear the answer.

Brigid

[WRITE]

take things slowly  And why shouldn't you, plus any guy of value will do this.

it's interesting, because if like me you've had a lot of rejection within significant relationships it's also a big trigger for the feelings of hopelessness and misery that has brought: doesn't matter how sensible it is, how much I sense someone really likes me- when a guy pulls away there's a 'here-we-go-again' feeling.

I'm learning to hold that and hug the abandonned baby and child and wife inside instead of projecting it out onto someone who wouldn't have a clue what they said or did to awaken a gulf of pain!

Reading the Judith Sils book has helped me name some of the processes in dating and it's given me a framework of what is NOTHING TO DO WITH ME! Her mantra is don't take it personally ( eg if someone doesn't fancy you, or it doesn't work out....eg extrapolating 'I'm unattractive' or 'nobody will ever love me' etc ) and don't start each relationship being hung up on the OUTCOME

( so why I asked the latest guy I like what faith he intends to raise his kids I'm not sure   )

there's another type that's gotten by me in the past and that's the man who is always there to help, or comes bearing gifts. When that possessive control factor is veiled

one thing which I have really ahd to work through- this is the first long-term single period in my life too- is the 'not knowing'.
Despite everything, my ex is reliable with it, I always know pretty much what he will do in a situation, what to expect.
And he's faithful- no cheating or even looking. Pays all bills. Sensible. Successful and hard-working. Functions well in a crisis.

I see now how during all the pain and difficulties he was meeting the most basic needs which for me were stability and security. So that has to feel like a loss too when it ceases and instead I'm out there where I don't know what new guys are thinking, if they are seeing other people, how they will react to things...

Which I suppose adds up totally to take things slowly!

hey write - alcohol is not a big deal until you live with an alcoholic.  Then, it's a major deal.

I don't even want to live with a drinker any more pb, if someone can't relax and have a fun time without a glass in their hand, I'm just not interested.

The friend last night is very cute, but when we were chatting the booze fumes were so strong and his witty banter was replaced after an hour or so by rather slow-witted grinning and one-word responses, and he awoke the whole of my maternal side with his intention to drive under the influence. After a couple of hours he'd gone from cute to unattractive...all because he was drinking.

heed those warnings.  No one should have to give up their life for someone else's problems.

exactly!

On the list of qualities I would desire in a partner it was pretty high up: can manage their life.