How to heal NPD

[Matthias43]

Hey,  

If anyone is interested in a community that is oriented toward healing NPD itself, then please come visit us at www.journeytowardhealing.com

Please let me know what you think if you decide to visit... especially if you have been a follower of Vaknin and have anything to say on his behalf.

Thank you,  

Matthias

[rosencrantz]

The link didn't lead anywhere when I clicked on it.

I didn't know Vaknin had 'followers' - have you all set up a new religion??!

I know that many people seem wary of Vaknin- quite right too - an intelligent self-confessed 'sufferer' of NPD is still an N and is likely to  damage the unwary (he says so himself!)

But I am incredibly grateful to him.

He wrote to me at a website I publish suggesting I might like to consider links to his material.  The first time I saw his email, it seemed irrelevant to my content and I ignored it.  However, I noticed it again later on and looked more closely.  

And then I read the foreword to his book.

It rocked my world, shattered my walls, answered the pleas I had put out to the universe for understanding of my mother and her situation.  It put the fear of God in me as I began to understand...and then it set me on a quest to find more mainstream material (understanding the narcissistic pattern, handling the self-absorbed, etc).

I suspect he stirs up a lot of professional jealousy and rivalry amongst the N population but I value the very narcissitic qualities that set him scurrying around the net to promote himself and his work - because without it I'd never have discovered what I now know (especially over here in the UK).  And what I now know has made a huge difference to every relationship in my life, to my son's future, to my own serenity and self-respect and feelings of self-worth.  Need I go on??

My view?  Give the guy a medal!  

My advice to N 'victims'?  Read it by all means, just don't get involved.

My advice to Ns?  a) He's not as influential in the world at large as you think he is and b) Don't shoot the messenger!

R

[Anonymous]

Narcissism, in the form of a personality disorder, can't be healed.

bunny

[Anonymous]

ANYTHING can be healed- in terms of personality disorder or mental illness. But part of many disorders is a resistance to change....big dilemma.

Sam Vaknin has hijacked the term narcissism to expand his own mental illnesses...he calls himself a narcissist but his bio fits a psycopath.

Many people's objection is simply- he has systematically made it impossible to find objective scientific material about narcissistic personality disorder on the internet.

[Matthias43]

Bunny,
I disagree.  I'd really like to hear you go into detail about this.
Matthias

(This post was editted because personal attacks are not permitted on this forum--Richard Grossman)

[Matthias]

Sorry guys. It's www.journeytowardhealing.org  

Matthias

[Anonymous]

Matthias, I don't get why you think our Voiceless community of people who have been hurt by narcissists would be interested in the narcissist's healing? Are you implying that we are all narcissists as well?
Karin.

[Anonymous]

Yes there is a difference in being affected by narcissism and being a narcissist: for the narcissist in therapy or trying to heal that is a fundamental distinction, one you will need help with.

Narcissists or their relatives on the internet are now going to have to search doubly hard- other abusive people with personality disorders have taken over key phrases and definitions...who would have thought that a form of abuse would equal redefining a psychological condition..yet here we are.

Spam is a crime in the UK.
Soon pornographic email will be illegal worldwide.
One day hijacking information for personal gain will be illegal too.

Whoever you are- it doesn't really matter- just be kind, and if you need therapy- go find it.

[Portia]

Healing NPD? I was shocked to read the following. It reminds me of the studies of ‘feral children’: those kids raised by animals who are unable to learn language beyond around 100 words because their communication learning synapses have never grown. They’re physically unable to learn.

‘Why is it always about you?’ – Hotchkiss - Chapter one on shamelessness:

“For some children, this experience {of shame}, repeated over and over in the course of socialisation, is so crushing that they never quite get over it, and they spend their lives avoiding anything that makes them feel ashamed. Recent research in neurobiology* has shown that the developing brain is not yet ready to process the intense experience of shame at an early age when socialisation begins and that the lack of an emotionally attuned parent at this crucial time can actually stunt – for life – the growth of the pathways for regulating such profoundly unpleasant emotions.”
* Schore A N (1994). Affect regulation and the origin of the self.

Healing NPD = brain transplant? Anyone have an update on this research?

(PS. I've glanced at that site above. In The Twelve Principles of Attitudinal Healing (why is it always 12? why not 9 or 13?) number 11 says: "Since love is eternal, death need not be viewed as fearful". Anyone know what this means from a secular point of view? Is it implying that death is a state, rather than a simple event? Is it just sloppy thinking?)

[Anonymous]

I've talked to several psychologists about healing NPD, the therapist would try to find out what the NPD means to the narcissist and what behaviours are problematic to people around them. Often it would mean separating other issues too, depression, violence ( often verbal ) or substance abuse.

It would be a long painful process for the narcissist, and the therapist probably!

Anti-depressants apparently help a lot because they 'cushion' the pain of life and therapy.

There's an interesting article from the Psychiatric Times http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p960235.html
about the reduction in narcissistic behaviours in some patients following therapy.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Guest that is an interesting article, particularly:

“The unimproved group proved to have had a higher level of pathological narcissism in the area of interpersonal relations at baseline, especially in their capacity to become involved in committed long-term relationships. This implies that severely narcissistically disturbed interpersonal relations may be the essential feature that defines patients with narcissistic personality disorder.”

I’d like to see their definition of “severely narcissistically disturbed interpersonal relations”. It might help understanding.

Overall it seems it’s a matter of degree of severity and the potential impact of environmental effects? (I keep thinking that if for example my mother had not withdrawn from society for 30+ years, had maybe continued working, she would be different now, more content.)

The cold science always leaves me wanting more, the rigour of the process seems to hold them back from being more interpretive in an intuitive way.

I guess the main problem could be in putting labels on to individuals in an attempt to see patterns in people, so we can ‘treat’ them. The labels have to be loose - otherwise we end up with completely unique problems which can only be treated one by one. Is that a terror we won’t admit to? That our problems are unique and we can never know another’s mind? Labels are so comforting! But I doubt many people here accept them whole-heartedly. Surely “the followers”   on this board know that nothing is black and white?

[Portia]

...

[Anonymous]

Peronsality disorders can't be healed. It's like saying you can 'heal' diabetes or some chronic medical condition. I think this is simply not going to happen. Better to adapt to reality and figure out how you wish to deal with the personality disordered individual.

bunny

[Anonymous]

if we're using a medical model I guess a distinction can be made in the healing process between a cure and a treatment.

No, many things cannot be cured, that does not say that they cannot be treated ( like diabetes ) and anyone can learn adaptive techniques to lessen their personal pain and the impact of their behaviour on others.
The key is that the person has to want to change, and be prepared to face the reality of their situation. That is very difficult for a narcissist.

For people whose lives have been adversly affected by personality disorder, it is a separate issue their own healing or pain, and hard to be objective while still hurting.

[Portia]

I agree Bunny, using the word “healed” does seem wrong. But hey we’re just chatting here! let’s explore the subject and some of the grey areas? The article linked to above does suggest that diagnosing the severe NPD isn’t that easy and that some people diagnosed do change some of their behaviours due to environmental factors. Not that they are healed, but that they change sufficiently to cope with life and other people (and other people can tolerate them). But not in all cases. Which raises the question just how do you diagnose severe NPD for which there is no hope?

Anyway, as an aside I had fun reading Psychiatric Times. Thank you Guest for the link - it’s a new favourite!

...
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p030472.html - Dump the DSM! By Paul Genova, M.D.

Some excerpts:
“recent studies suggest that there is considerable overlap in the genetic vulnerability for schizophrenia and for bipolar disorders. What is the point of false precision when the genes themselves are imprecise?”

“The personality disorders section, categorical as it is, has been very effective in stifling nascent psychodynamic thinking among our trainees. Many of these "disorders" are extreme forms of various dimensions of normal personality.”

“The focus of psychiatric treatment should be a single diagnosis--a single person--in most cases,”

There is also a ‘counterpoint’ reply in defence of the DSM. Talk about ruffled feathers! Have you noticed how when people get annoyed they use over-long obscure words, as if the words justify their annoyance? Very funny. Some excerpts:

“Of course, there are many clinically important aspects of the patient that are not captured by this label, including the psychosocial context in which the depression developed, psychodynamic factors that might be perpetuating the depression and many others. We believe that most mental health care professionals can appreciate this main limitation of the DSM system, namely, that the DSM diagnosis provides only a part of the story.”

“We are the first to acknowledge that the DSM categories do not always jibe with the ever-evolving body of scientific research and that they sometimes conflict with clinical reality.”

(‘Conflict with clinical reality?’ So in other words, the DSM categories are sometimes wrong! Just like lawyers, these people should use Plain English more.)

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p010664.html
Some dilemmas of practising psychiatry by Paul Genova.  This man writes in an accessible way and he just makes such sense to me. You get a real feeling that he loves his job, he loves people.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p010646.html
Click above for an example of a shrink I wouldn’t want. What’s your diagnosis?

She refers to her career decisions as “I yielded to the siren's song seducing me”   and  “the big lights of Hollywood had beckoned, and I found myself on the path” (so she’s not responsible for her actions?)  but: “It didn't take long for me to realize”   and  “a ‘media psychiatrist,’ a title I coined”  (she is clever though!)
The best bit is: “It does not seem ‘psychiatrist-like’ to be in the spotlight. And you risk being labeled as having a narcissistic or histrionic personality disorder”.

  Heal thyself?