Author Topic: Am I the Only Agnostic?  (Read 10306 times)

Hopalong

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Am I the Only Agnostic?
« on: August 19, 2006, 11:27:40 PM »
I was wondering if there's anyone else who doesn't use the word God freely or have very firm ideas about spirituality? I wonder if I've articulated that in a way that anybody else might recognize.

(I might just be having a new kind of reaction to my friend's death, so please bear with me if I'm going pathetic...). I'm trying to take my own advice. I feel a little lonely and pooooor me.

Happy detour--guess what? My D just emailed and asked me to call her tomorrow. It's about the possibility of us meeting at a house near the beach I've been offered for a week so she could at the same time get a tour of a university she's interested in. But I'm tickled. She asked me so POLITELY. And she used to just demand: Call. Send me this. Here's hoping I stay centered and relaxed and clear with her.

Anyway, my topic...the language of Christianity has become so large here that I'm feeling less and less able to ... I dunno. Feel belonging. Who knows? Maybe that's a good thing, and exactly what I need to learn from! Or maybe Penny's earlier post really reminded me of that painful outsider feeling.

I am missing the easier flow of sharing, but I can't describe it very well. Maybe this way of reinforcing is easier for others and I just need to accept that. And maybe THIS language is just flowing for others, and my not feeling it is something for me to learn from. So that's okay too.

It just feels at moments like a wall and I am only blowing bubbles that go plop.

(In the big picture of life, I'm sure that's true! A little humility won't hurt me any.)  :)

Thanks for listening to what is not very linear just now.

Happy Sunday all. I know mine will be tough, I'm taking R's partner to lunch and she is so intense in her grief that I need to be really steady. It's as though she wants me to share her grief for R, and mine is less intense of course, but it is my own. Is that stupid? Of course it is. I'll get past that. I am feling really dense, but I forgive myself. Sorry for the incoherence but I appreciate this place to write.

Hops


"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

WRITE

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2006, 12:03:56 AM »
Oh not another person in my life who can't commit to something! ( smile )

Hi Hops, I just logged in and your I feel a little lonely and pooooor me. jumped out at me.
I'm feelign a bit that way, actually not so bad now I started writing and did something with it.

I was so happy earlier too- an evening with my ex and pre-teen son can do that...

One thing I noticed about the Unitarian churches I have been to, few ( here at least- it's more a Christian church in Europe) seem comfortable with the word G_d, either going all New Age or just avoiding the concept. Is yours a church which names G_d? One of the places I went to if the preacher said G_d there was a frisson of annoyance in the room! and the judgemental attitude to other faiths could be a bit rich too- surprising how often people in attenpting to remove one dogma simply grow another.

There are many definitions of G_d and yes, some churches do teach that theirs is right and the Only way. I'm with Ghandi on religion though: G_d has no religion.

I am a Christian because I was raised in that religion, that culture and because I love the teachings of Jesus ( minus the dogma ) and I am lucky to have been able to choose my faith freely after years of study and examining other faiths, and to live where I can practise it freely.

G_d to me is both mystery and all-encompassing. That Spirit of the Universe which connects us all and is everything good.
Not everyone deifies it, I think it is possible to be close to G_d without naming G_d....in fact some of the strongest people spiritually I have known have been followers without a need for ego or religious structure- just reading and appreciating the wisdom of prophets, accepting the beliefs of others and the value of living a good life.

Glad your daughter wants to see you.

Hope tomorrow is ok, it's really hard supporting someone in intense grief, be extra kind to yourself the rest of the day. She will adjust to her loss in time, you too. (((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

penelope

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2006, 12:35:04 AM »
yes hops.  Our views are very similar I think, from what you've explained before.

I'm listening and I think I understand.

pb

Hopalong

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2006, 01:14:33 AM »
Thank you, Write. I think you're going somewhere I'd like to follow.
My UU church generally avoids naming a deity, but we sing God in hymns, and we have married ministers: one is happy in using God, the other isn't. And then we 8 worship associates give sermons too, and some speak of a direct god experience, some don'tperienve but talk religious ex. Ministers come and go, but the community is such a warm haven. Thanks for reminding me that my bubble-bowing matters there.

We have a Chrisitan UU group that meets Thursday nights and are very joyful in studying the NT and deepening their experience of Jesus. There's even a group in the denomination that having UU Christian revivals!

We have other groups too of course. We have banners representing all the world's major religion hung around the ceiling of the sanctuary, to show our openness and respect for whatever is good in the heart of any religion based on love. I guess my definition always circles back to, if god were love and only love, then I would believe in god. But i've got a lot of untangling from the texts to do before it will be that pure for me. One day, I do hope I will have my simple faith again, that's direct, no text and no interpreter.

Thanks too Pb. Don't feel lonesome no mo!

Quote
I think it is possible to be close to G_d without naming G_d....in fact some of the strongest people spiritually I have known have been followers without a need for ego or religious structure- just reading and appreciating the wisdom of prophets, accepting the beliefs of others and the value of living a good life.

And Write, thanks so much especially for this.

love
Hops

« Last Edit: August 20, 2006, 10:59:18 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

moonlight52

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2006, 01:26:57 AM »
Hops,  

I see the cosmos as Divine and  Sacred................ also I Love the teachings of Jesus......................
                                
But I see Jesus as more than just a teacher.
                                      
We are all on this earthship together.There are no outsider's.
                                        
I believe in Gods love.No painful experience has effected my Faith in God.

The concept of God truly would be beyond words for me.

TOO COOL about your daughter.I hope tomorrow goes well for you I am sure it will what a summer WOW !

MoonLight

(((((((((((((((((((((((Hops))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))



WRITE

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2006, 02:24:45 AM »
if god were love and only love

well this is a problem with deification.
Once we see G_d as an all powerful guy on a cloud or other personification we attribute human qualities: how could G_d allow suffering etc 'prove it'...

For me is important to see things human in context: eg the Bible in the social context of when it was written and the contexts of translation and interpretation. And suffering just is. There is some cause and effect, like the global warming we talked about, or war, or human behaviour. But some things just are and the lesson is hidden behind the suffering. And also if people did not suffer we would have no opportunity to help them.

I see G_d as a Spirit, and the various interpretations of G_d as cultural and psychological.

But The Spirit is absolute, everywhere, I want to be tuning in to that balance of the Universe, that is pure love, and belonging exactly at the time and place we are meant to be.

Trusting in that means to accept our condition but try to transcend it through for example for me the teachings of Jesus: self-sacrifice, self-discipline, kindness, and losing qualities like anger, greed, destructiveness.

I can't fully explain the phenomenon ( ! ) and I am certainly no aspiring spiritual leader, but I feel confident your life is touched by G_d because of the way you live and the peace and harmony you bring here for example.

I am not the kind of Christian who believes Christ took care of my sins so I can go sin and repent and be forgiven; I don't see that as growth in personal or human terms. The Sermon on the Mount contains instructions for a good life; amazing to think of Jesus understanding psychology and how to communicate with many people on different levels.

But people are all at different places. Some people need the reassurance of an afterlife or greater purpose. I tend to think we create our lives here and now and what we put into the world around us.

Giving love is really important. We are taught to look for love and to wait for love and to seek love, but purest love is the serenity of giving love freely and watching the ripples in the pond flow back and forth with no expectation, but that the love is there or will soon be there. Trusting in G_d and our place in the Universe, and giving out love, that's how I see Spiritual balance; and following the teachings of Christ for me is practical instruction for how to live day to day.

I think everyone should feel confident to seek G_d and however they receive the Spirit is between them and G_d. No one can tell anyone else what is right, only what works for them and show others love.

I think my faith is stronger because I chose it and I've examined lots of belief systems. Another person might be firm in the convictions they were taught from childhood. I think it's all ok if it's really love and respectful. I think it takes courage to develop your own faith- not blind faith but eyes wide open faith.

Saying that- I feel more and more, G_d will provide; I am loved and taken care of. This is powerful for me, who was not loved or cared of as a helpless baby.

When I am really in balance in all aspects of my life the spiritual is at the top, and it's no effort to do what I need to do and especially no effort to be kind or patient or examine my conscience.

Time for bed- or I'll be out of synch tomorrow.

The concept of God truly would be beyond words for me.

it is hard to express, without sounding New Age or corny or just plain deranged ( smile )

On which note- to bed!

Hopalong

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2006, 08:48:42 AM »
Quote
I think everyone should feel confident to seek G_d and however they receive the Spirit is between them and G_d. No one can tell anyone else what is right, only what works for them and show others love.
Yes, thanks for saying this

Quote
I think my faith is stronger because I chose it
The UU book, A Chosen Faith, helped me with that too...there's just so much freedom that I also feel a lot of responsibility. When a belief system doesn't spell it all out for me, I really have to be careful to stay in touch with my conscience and keep my mind open

Quote
I think it's all ok if it's really love and respectful. I think it takes courage to develop your own faith- not blind faith but eyes wide open faith.
It does.

Quote
Saying that- I feel more and more, G_d will provide; I am loved and taken care of. This is powerful for me, who was not loved or cared of as a helpless baby.
I am so happy for you that you have broken through, and know G_d

Quote
When I am really in balance in all aspects of my life the spiritual is at the top, and it's no effort to do what I need to do and especially no effort to be kind or patient or examine my conscience
Thank you, Write. This is inspiration I needed.

Happy, happy Sunday...
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

reallyME

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2006, 09:04:59 AM »
Write:
Quote
I am not the kind of Christian who believes Christ took care of my sins so I can go sin and repent and be forgiven; I don't see that as growth in personal or human terms. The Sermon on the Mount contains instructions for a good life; amazing to think of Jesus understanding psychology and how to communicate with many people on different levels.


This is good, since Jesus, Himself, told a woman caught in adultery, to go and SIN NO MORE.

portia brain-ist

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2006, 10:02:13 AM »
Hiya Hops.....not many replies hey?

What is agnostic? Does that relate to a god in some way?

I have no concept of God so I guess 'not believing' is a non-starter. Not believing in what exactly? Don't I have to have an idea of what to start off with, so that i can decide not to believe in it? Ha!

I have a brain and that's 'me'. I have no idea really if others think like I do. I use language to try and get closer but that's not perfect.

My sense of something bigger than me is what i see with my brain, what I trust from what others tell me. I sense my environment and that's sure bigger than me! I look at the stars and think that's a long way. I feel the (increasing) heat from the sun and think: the sun is 'friend' but it is also 'enemy'.....but of course i know, the sun is neutral, the sun doesn't care about humans or life one way or another, the sun simply is....like a rock. I love rocks and stones, their sense of 'time' if they have a sense of time. This little stone I hold may still be a stone in 1,000 years' time when i am part of the planet's dust. I think we don't disappear, we become planet dust and I find that quite comforting! okay....I am not a Buddhist either, i refuse the labels :D but that's how i think today. Tomorrow I might take up an ism or two, who knows?

Take care ((((((Hops)))))

WRITE

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2006, 11:25:55 AM »
.not many replies hey?

she only posted it last night, don't be impatient P!

What is agnostic? Does that relate to a god in some way?

it can relate to any belief but is generally applied to religious belief:
non commital/ doubting truth or knowledge; believing it is impossible to answer question 'is there a God?'; skeptical about divinity whilst not being unbeliever.

I think we don't disappear, we become planet dust and I find that quite comforting!

There is a huge comfort to me in thinking we are part of an eternal cycle.
Here is a quote from http://www.pantheism.net/ The Pantheist Society:

We see death as the return to nature of our elements, and the end of our existence as individuals. The forms of "afterlife" available to humans are natural ones, in the natural world. Our actions, our ideas and memories of us live on, according to what we do in our lives. Our genes live on in our families, and our elements are endlessly recycled in nature.

For those who believe in an afterlife I don't think the beliefs here contradict each other, for it is the soul which ascends to heaven leaving the body behind.

I am not a pantheist but during the years when I was not spiritually at peace I would find this incredible connection with nature ( also music ) and now I know it was G_d, or what G_d is to me.

“Read a good book, take a long walk, make a new friend,”

when everything in life is bleak these three can make all the difference. Sharing them with family and friends, and teaching your children 'this is how I live', that is so special.
And we have another chance to watch M. shine
growing your family memories.
So many of mine have come from church, at times when I was really adrift as a child the church was a source of consistency, an anchor into a calendar and routine away from the turmoil of an unhappy family, and in my music life a chance to learn and to shine ( my family were never very interested sadly but many others were and sowed a seed which is a creative jungle now! )

Happy, happy Sunday...

As a child Sundays at home were interminable. Now I cherish a 'day of rest' and like early English politician and playwright Joseph Addison think

Sunday clears away the rust of the whole week.

I don't have a church, but my mind's my own church ( Thomas Paine- not that I wish to foment any kind of revolution except maybe in thinking and people being kind  :) )



moonlight52

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2006, 11:38:21 AM »
THINKING WELL OF OTHERS, KINDNESS ,FORGIVENESS ,NOT HOLDING GRUDGES,LOVING SELF IN A HEALTHY WAY

On an on I believe Jesus taught on such ideas..................................I see the cosmos as sacred.

Happy thoughts on a Sunday

Love to you Write,Hops,pb,Laura,Dr.Grossman,Portia,and All

MoonLight

pennyplant

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2006, 11:56:40 AM »
Hi Hops,

I suppose just about now you are meeting R's partner for your lunch together.  I believe that no matter what you say or do, she will sense your caring and love.  It is difficult.  Just being there for her will be enough.

And now your daughter has reached out to you--again!!!  You're holding on to your boundaries with her and she has come around anyway.  How good is that?  Very good.

The question--I was agnostic for many years.  I think I was just unable to trust or understand what I believed.  Now I am not agnostic but my husband and sons are.  Maybe they even tend toward atheism.  It's just not much of an issue for my husband and youngest son.  My oldest has wrestled with it much as I have.  I don't suppose I could be called a Christian.  My interest in the bible tends to be more from the point of view of the history of it.  Church hasn't ever really felt very comfortable for me.  Maybe that will change some day.  But I'd have to pretty much go by myself as my husband isn't interested at all.

It is just another piece of the loneliness pie for me.  I'm almost always an outsider.  I'm more triggered by cheerleaders than Christians  :lol: :lol: :lol: .

I would say it is true that there are a lot of mentions of God here.  A lot of mentions of Christian belief.  Maybe it is just standing out to you so strongly because it is one of your more important personal quests.  That is something that has come through in your posts all along.  It's not a bad thing.  It just happens to be one of the things you're actively working on.  I think it's interesting to follow your quest.  I'd say, just keep going with it.  See what happens.

Love, Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

teartracks

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2006, 12:24:02 PM »





Hi Hops,

I'm not Agnostic, but I d;on't feel excluded from your thre4ad.  :D   I wish you the best day, one that fills your heart with love, hope, and faith.
Glad for the positive signs from your daughter.   :D

teartracks




Plucky

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2006, 03:26:27 PM »
Hi Hoppy,
I had been thinking that some of the discussions here had gotten pretty overtly Christian, and while it does not bother me personally, I can see how that would be uncomfortable for someone who does not share the same beliefs.

Please don't feel left out.    In the end, we are all here to discuss voicelessless, and I think you know all about that.  I can see how hearing others speak of a very specific idea of God can be strange if you are in the mode of thinking this through or you have decided that you cannot ever know exactly how and what and who God could be.

In the religion in which I was raised, no other religion was ever vilified or made to be incorrect.  We learned how every religion has some good in it, and some bad, just as people do.  We also learned that organised religion was not necessary for spiritual development, and that this was the right path for some.  We also discussed at length, but never received cut-and-dried rules, on who and what God is.  Some think of a very personified God, more of an individual.  Others think of a more pantheistic approach, where nature and human nature are encompassed by a larger entity which can be called God.  Some believe that God is the amalgamation of all the good in the world.  Some that God encompasses the good and the bad, because there cannot be anything in existence which is not God.

I think this spectrum, and much more, probably exists on the board as well but the more vocal people are those whose ideas are more specific.

I can only speak for myself, but for me, your voice in this area is valid and needed along with all the others.  The Buddhist approach seems to be compatible with yours -  what do you think of that philosophy?

Plucky
« Last Edit: August 20, 2006, 03:52:09 PM by Plucky »

reallyME

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Re: Am I the Only Agnostic?
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2006, 03:47:20 PM »
Jesus paid too dear a price for me to deny Him, plus He said "if you deny me before man, I will deny you before my Father.  If you confess me before man, I will confess you before my Father.

Besides this, I would not want to live without my relationship with Him...I am not religious and can see why that would turn people off.  I have a personal (not private) relationship with my Lord.

~Laura