Am I alone?

[Doodle]

Lately, I've been noticing a pattern when I communicate with my Nmom and my partner.  My Nmom frequently tells me that she is affraid to ask me things for fear that I will tell her she is wrong/incorrect/faulty.  My partner tells me that she feels like she has to 'defend' her actions and opinions about things when we talk. 

It is very hard to explain exactly what I mean here.  These things usually come up when I express to either of them that I disagree with their decisions/opinions, or that something they have done hurt my feelings or bothered me (which is hard for me to do because I lived most of my life making decisions and forming opinoins to please others).

Does anybody else get this type of response when they are trying to communicate or set boundries with others?

[reallyME]

Doodle,

THere are currently a few N's in my life.  I believe I speak from experience here.  Hope it helps in some way...

An N can absolutely NOT HANDLE hearing anything wrong about themselves, their ideas, their opinions, their desires...etc.  It hurts them so deeply that they can feel it physically...in fact, many N's have physical problems.  All the ones I know, have Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, dissociation, depression, etc.  They just can't BEAR to have you think LESS of them than they illiusionally see themselves.

Now, if someone's view is one that is valid and true, that's something they can protect and stand by...the problem with N's is that most of their views are distorted.

They do not like BOUNDARIES, because that takes away the control from them.

When I tried to set Boundaries in the beginning of my relationship with Jodi, she refused, till her husband stepped in and insisted we both abide by them.  Jodi still did not, though I did the best I could to, in spite of her lack of cooperation in letting me know what was going on on her end of things.

~Laura

[moonlight52]

Doodle ,

Glad to see you back .Feelings get hurt and then our loved ones or ourselves can  get defensive.

Wrap that up with wanting to make important heart felt points that sound like I want to be right or a loved one maybe feeling I am sure I am right about this or that.

Your partner gets defensive I would in a loving way ASK  your partner why they are feeling this way.Does mom feel she is helping you by correcting you?

And then she does not want to be in the "wrong".I would separate the patterns you see between your mom and your partner they sound like two very different people.

I am sure others on the board can help with understanding these issues.

Hugs,

MoonLight

[Stormchild]

Hi doodle

you're getting a 'change-back' reaction. they're pushing you to 'change back' to the person you were, who tolerated abuse [or whatever you are now refusing to tolerate]. This is not always conscious, it's a normal reaction when one person in a system begins to draw their lines in a different place. But it's easier to deal with it if you are conscious of it.

here's some info on it: http://aurora.icaap.org/archive/krestan.html -- Harriet Goldhor Lerner first described it, but my search didn't turn up anything from her directly.

hope this tidbit helps.

[Hopalong]

Hi Doodle,
I sympathize. This must be really frustrating for you.

I was wondering, do you think there might be something in your tone of voice that you're unaware of? I know when my D is trying just to communicate urgently, she gets an edge that some part of me can't listen to. She doesn't understand why at all, but I just get defensive or shut down at times.

Feels, inside me, as though I'm desperate for her to stop criticizing. But I don't have an objective view.

Not sure how, but I was wondering if you thought a session with a voice coach or drama teacher, where you talk about something at some length and they just listen...might give you feedback if there might be some affect you're putting out unintentionally.

Mighty hard to guess online, so please forgive me if I'm off by miles! I am truly guessing in the dark.

Hopalong

[Certain Hope]

Dear Doodle,

  If this has been a fairly recent development for you, I'd bet that Stormy is absolutely right. When a people-pleaser suddenly begins speaking her true mind, it seems that those who are accustomed to having her be agreeable all the time can be more than a little bit shocked and appalled.
   Do you think that you have a critical spirit, Doodle? I know that when I first realized that it wouldn't kill me to say what I really thought instead of simply nodding and smiling, I went overboard at first... kinda like a toddler who first learns the word "no"    It felt so wonderful to be able to express myself that it was like the dam had broken and there was no containing the flood.
If that is the case, don't worry... just takes some practice to gain a sense of balance and choose such "battles" more wisely.
I hope you'll come back and be able to share some more when you can.

With love,
Hope

[Hopalong]

Me too, ditto Hope.
I'm sorry Doodle if I made a stupid guess.
I can certainly do that and I'd NEVER want to push someone away....

Truly please do toss my thought if it's off the mark, I think that's very possible.
(I'd also be happy to delete it if you like. I'm worried it was insensitive.)

Hope you'll be sure to tell me, okay?

((((Doodle))))

Hops

[moonlight52]

Hey Doodle ,  We are talking about two people you are in relationship with THE MOM and that is a whole different thing

than your partner .The dynamics between the two MOM and your partner must be different .

 Maybe separating the two patterns might be a good thing.Is your partner getting defensive a new situation?
 
 My hubby and I are going to see a  counselor it is helping.


What do you think? Like Stormchild  says changing boundaries can cause loved ones to react differently.


Love your name Doodle and

Love to you

MoonLight

[ANewSheriff]

Hi Doodle,

I think Storm is right on the mark here.  Many people (Dare I say, "most"?) say they are open to criticism or opposing points of view, yet they become fiercely resistant when they are actualy confronted with alternative ideas.  Change can be very difficult for the healthiest of individuals.  Dysfunctional relationships vehemently oppose change. 

I am learning to ask people outright if they are receptive to another point of view.  The last four or five years have taught me that more often than not people just want to live in their little worlds as they are.  They really do not want to be bothered with the challenges of change. 

ANS

[Doodle]

Hey everyone!  My apologies for my reply taking so long.  I went to Europe Sep 3rd -21st and it was running around like crazy before and was exhausted when I returned  We had a great time, though!

First off, I want to let Hopalong know that your comments did not insult me in any way.  It was a perfectly reasonable suggestion that there is something in my voice that triggers those that I am having issues with.  What came first, however, the issues or the voice, is a whole other question.  I know for sure that I do feel defensive quite a bit when, especially when discussing 'hot' topics with my Nmom.  I think we both set off each other at times. 

That brings me to jacmac's question with a question:

What kind of person, if you express a wish or a hurt that is perfectly reasonable (and I'm guessing if you're a people pleaser who is trying to enforce boundaries, it is a perfectly reasonable request) then goes on to tell you that your wish or hurt is actually depriving them of something or hurting them?

My answer is: Someone who basically cares about protecting their own view of themself.  It's tough with my Nmom - she will give you the shirt off your back, but it has so much to do with her own insecurities.  I truly believe that she is a caring and loving woman, but her own issues run so deep that so many things she does are to maintain her shell to keep from facing the things (I believe) she needs to face (getting outside, making friends, doing what she wants to do for herself).  And, it is especially tough when I tell her that I disapprove of something she has said or is doing...or set boundries.  Then, that Change-Back (thank you, Stormchild!) reaction happens and, depending on the situation, she turns into a defensive beast that will throw any trick in the book to try and put the 'blame' back onto me. 

I totally agree that I should treat my Nmom and partner as separate entities. But, the influences and poor role models I had while growing up (even though they were loving) still effects my relationships to this day.  I sometimes get defensive with my partner when I don't need to.  My first tendency is to want people to treat me a certain way (because I was never taught that making mistakes is part of life. Instead, mistakes were other peoples' fault that should have known better than to hurt me).  It's hard to relax and let relationships unfold when that is your gut reaction. 

Well, I hope that I have touched on the main points of all of your responses, and for all of them I thank you!!  You all sure do help me get through all these thoughts...

Hope that you are all having a great fall so far,

Doodle

[moonlight52]

HI YA Doodle ,

 What I have learned is that no one can "MAKE" me feel anyway and I am responsible  for my own feeling's as any parent is responsible  for their's .
This can give a certain space between parent and adult children.

This OBJECTIVENESS IS NOT ALWAYS EASY TO ACHIEVE BUT CAN BE DONE.
In small steps that feel like great ones when one has been stuck for years as I was I just try to convey who I am AND whatever my parent's reaction is their's and I am loving  and understanding as best I can be.  .
But as far as I can see is you can state your case as calmly as you can and the ball is in their court.
And there are so many others here to help.No you are certainly not alone.

Doodle love love to you ,

moon

[Hopalong]

Welcome back, Doodle...and what a nice response.
Glad you had a great trip.

I hear you. My D actually does have an unpleasant voice when she's agitated, piercing as a newborn's wail. I nearly climb the walls (my Dad had perfect pitch and I am super sensitive to sound, as well as having raging tinnitus...I am always stuffing my fingers in my ears in movies and asking restaurants to turn it down, etc.). It's like, when it sounds that way I literally can't make myself hear her.

It bothers me now, so long after...because I know there were things I needed to listen to that I didn't, especially when I was depressed.

On the other hand, she is tremendously critical. There's no such thing as a simple "I disagree" or "I see it differently". She tends to attack me personally and rip into my individuality and present me back to myself in a very harsh light. It doesn't feel kind. So often, whether she's technically got a point or not, she's lost me before she begins because of her tone. I yearn for her to do some communications skills training, but don't know if she ever will.

Hope things are feelings better with your partner and you. A great trip sounds like good relationship Rx!

Hopalong

[teartracks]

Hi doodle,

Haven't met you.  Greetings  and best wishes with your fresh run on the board.  I look forward to reading your thread and future posts.

teartracks