Is Guilt an Appropriate Feeling?

[Overcomer]

Hey Gaining et al................well to get validation from my nmom is NEVER going to happen.  Yesterday i took my middle child to nmom's church because her boyfriend goes there................I had told nmom I had no desire to EVER go to her church again.  Anyway, we went out to eat after church and I said something about being angry with my husband for not finishing a project before going on to the next one.  She recoiled as if she saw a horrible something - a horrible anything - it was total horror on her face.  It has gotten worse and worse over the years.  Back when I cared what she thought so I watched my mouth, I always noticed her squirming in the back of the room if I spoke during a staff meeting or whatever.  It was almost like she was trying to control what I said with her body language.  Now that I am so fed up and I just let her have it verbally, she recoils in horror - as if I am going to jump across the table and strangle her right in front of God and everybody!!  So validation from her?  No.  Maybe validation from the counselor that we cannot work together and remain civil.........

And what about me becoming N?  Well, I thought to be an N you had to have a super-ego or think higher of yourself than you should.  Well, nmom has successfully made me feel absolutely like the biggest loser that walks the face of the earth.  The worse mom.  The fattest.  The mouthiest.   The ugliest.............(when I was three she told me I was ugly - on the inside and the outside!)  So do I WANT and YEARN to be somebody??  Do I want to be successful?  Do I want to be skinny?  Do I want to live my life apart from my nmom?  ABSOLUTELY!!  Because just maybe, if I am any of those things, I can break away from my nmom. 

I was talking to a man and he told me that it was too bad my nmom had made it easy on me all these years (good hours and good pay) because I am absolutely trapped where I am for lack of finding anything with those kinds of benefits!!!

[reallyME]

Now that I am so fed up and I just let her have it verbally, she recoils in horror - as if I am going to jump across the table and strangle her right in front of God and everybody!!

Kelly, all I have to say is GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD FOR YOU!  That is what GETS through to N's how abhorrent and cruel their behavior is!  You now have control back over your own life and she realizes she can no longer intimidate you into cow-towing.

As far as the guy who told you your mother made it easy on you...the "family business" theme seems all too common among N families.  It's all about IMAGE and the message that "we don't want anyone to really KNOW us, so we will keep this front up by staying very successful so we do not need to get close enough to people.

I lived that facade with Jodi for a bit.  Raised by ministers, they rarely had people come stay with them.  People outside were just not "privvy" I was told, to what goes on in the household, because "we are a MINISTRY family!"  What I found out went on in the household, was the son being seen as the prince and the daughter (from a former spouse) treated like less than a second-class citizen.  While I was there, I also was cast in the "daughter" role, and therefore subjected to the same silent treatment, mixed messages, intimidation and "you bad girl, you DISAPPOINTED MOMMY" crap.  I LIVED what Jodi's daughter was subjected to DAILY, but I only went through it for 5 weeks out of the 6 I was there with her.   On the first week, I was wined and dined and TESTED and WARNED that anything that went on in that house, was NOT TO EVER LEAVE THERE OR THERE WOULD BE HELL TO PAY.

It IS too bad you were stuck in such a situation all your life.  I am GLAD you have taken back control from your Nmother.  Let her own her own problems and you can own yours.  You have gotten comfortable with the familiar, and we ALL do that in some ways, but there IS a way out.  You will find it in the right time and season.

~Laura

[Overcomer]

That is the only thing that keeps me going.  When I was at work today it was so "strained."  We just tiptoe around each other.  I think she is afraid of me.  That is why she recoils when I say I was angry.  The thought of me and angry to her is very intimidating.  I have blown up in the past and I glare at her and tell her she is arrogant and prideful.  I hope I never make anyone feel the way she makes me feel because I wouldn't want anyone to be as angry at me as I have been at her!  If I were her I would be afraid, too.  Not because I am a threat - because I am not.  But because I wouldn't want someone to unload on me the way I have on her.

But I have heard several people here on the board tell me "good for you, Kelly."  "You have finally drawn a line in the sand."  Well, to me it isn't a line.................it's a great chasm like the Grand Canyon - something so wide and so deep that she must not try to go back there.  But today at work (in front of my dad - where she is safe!!) she said something like "I wish your daughter would go to AWANAS - I would take her....................."  And I wanted to say to her.................."Mom, if you let me go from work, and gave me enough money to be a stay-at-home mom, I would take her to church every single Sunday AND Wednesday because my psyche from not working with you would be so good and my house would be in order and I wouldn't be so stressed...............that I would have the time and energy to do those things that you "wish" I would do.................."

[gratitude28]

Hi Again Kelly,
I am reading through your posts and there is one glaring error that I think you are making... you are looking for the wrong kind of validation. You know the song "Looking for love in all the wrong places?" That's what you are doing!!!
Your mom will NEVER EVER EVER provide any kind of validation of the type you are seeking. She will NEVER EVER pat you on the head and say, "Good job my beautiful daughter, how silly I have been."
YOU need to give yourself validation. For example, when I was at my parents' this summer, I could look at my mother and I could see that she is a mean, spiteful, ridiculous woman. I understood how inane her behavior is... because I received validation from others here and through studying this disease, that normal people don't try to hurt and belittle their "loved ones." I honestly am free of any desire for her to ever be proud of me for what I want her to be proud of me for. The things I love about myself are often what she despises in me. I find her cruel and lacking... she never was and never will be a mother.
So, my validation came in the form of I AM NOT CRAZY. She was mean to me, she did and does treat me cruelly, I am NOT the person that she made me think I was for so long. I am me... faults and all.
Kelly, why do you stay near her? With all of your knowledge and experience with your company, you should be looking to free yourself and fins a place where you can shine.
I hope I haven't been too blunt. I'm trying to give you a fresh pair of glasses
Love and hugs,
Beth

[Hopalong]

Hi Kelly,
Your Mom does verbal put-downs and doesn't let you shine.
She's competitive with you, and doesn't build you up...

I believe you completely. I'm sorry she's that insecure that she needs to compete with her duaghter. I know how maddening it is.

I think your fixation on winning with her, over her, against her, is making you lose.

It is not idea to be stuck in business with her right, but I hope that for you, this forced contact might be an opportunity to finish the unfinished business on many levels. I would have given a lot to have had the help of a counselor. Please open up to whatever may happen there. If you have only the agenda that you be pronouced Right and she be pronounced All Wrong, you'll set yourself up for more anger, and not taking the learning that you CAN take from it to free yourself of your fear of her and obsession with her.

That may also mean you will be taking your focus of HER behavior and putting it within YOURSELF. And the counselor will help you. It's not magic but it sure is powerful.

THIS is your chance, to get some detached and wise and well trained help. Please take everything that comes, not just what you demand of it. You'll wind up with more insight and strength that way.

Hops

[reallyME]

Please Kelly, do yourself a huge favor and LISTEN TO BETH!!! Get AWAY FROM THE LADY and DO NOT GO BACK.

[gratitude28]

Thanks for the validation, Laura I take it where I can get   

Ah... life is a funky journey, eh?????

[Overcomer]

Three things happened in the last two days.  1.  Yesterday we had an evaluation with bookkeeper.  Nmom was cordial - almost flattering................then at the end bookkeeper asked what my nmom wanted her to do regarding correcting people or who was accountable to her, etc.  My nmom basically said it is none of your concern.................all those inquiries now go to aunt....

2.  So today I am writing up a memo and accidentally opened a memo I sent a year and a half ago which said something like "bookkeeper is now the assistant manager and is considered the "go-to" person and has all the rights to reprimand, correct, etc."  So I made a copy of this memo and placed one in nmom's box and aunts box...............told them I had run acrossed it and that this is what was communicated to employees....................so all the "I don't remember making bookkeeper a "manager" were put to rest....................should have seen aunt squirm after she had read it.  Nmom was gone so I wasn't able to see her reaction but it gave me sooooooo much pleasure to be right and have it in writing!!

3.  I sent the therapist a rather long email (after I called the office and asked if it was alright if I wrote up a bio so when I got in he would know what was going on - they said yes....................)  It detailed all the things I have been going on and on about here.  My appointment is AFTER my nmom's but he will have read my perspective before he talks to her and she makes me look like an idiot!!  Excited about that!!!

[RADALTE0623]

Coming across this thread is very fortutious for me because feeling guilt and having to prove myself has been with me for a very long time. When I was in therapy, some years ago, I expressed some thoughts about this and my therapist said it was because my Mom was narcissistic and I think it made an impression on me.  Not much at the time because Iwas so sure that I was to blame for the way our relationship was like.
And that's because I was critically ill, almost died, as an infant, from a thyroid condition. She had convinced me that that we needed to be very close because my life and condition was so delicate. In the years since I had convinced myself that she reacted this way because she was really traumatized herself from the experience and I felt guilty about that too. However, this doesn't always wash with me since I have read more about Narcissism and how pervasive and insidious it really is. We get along pretty well  now becasue she has mellowed with age and I have decided,for my own peace of mind, to try and forgive her. However from time time I find myself looking up the N features because I am feeling really vulnerable and wrong and guilty for the slightest things again. I have a couple of texts, the Nina Brown one and Trapped in the Mirror, I have also checked out The Heresy of Self Love by Steven Zweig which is very interesting because it talks about Narc in the culture and Arts.
Usually I try to stay in my adult but people have told me that i am like a perpetual child which has felt insulting and patronizing to me even tho I know exactly what they mean. By the way.does anybody besides me try to subscribe to the "hate the sin, love the sinner" philosophy? I have tried,NOT easy, but I am curious about what people think of that, if it works, thanx for letting me vent...  

If I continue to allow my anger to drive me than I really do look like the bad person.  She has always had that on her side.  When she is in a room alone with me, she clinches her teeth, throws accusations, and is very bitchy.  But get her in a room with a therapist?  She will act like the victim.  And seriously?  I know I am the real victim in the whole scenario.  I have had to deal with her narcissism my whole life.  I will really try to be strong and to speak in very neutral terms and tell the real story and see what the therapist says.  The guilt?  It was ingrained in me from a very young age.  To do anything outside of what my nmom sees fit makes me feel guilty.  So if I can get over the irrational guilt and try to do things motivated by my mental health, then I think I will be ok!!

[Hopalong]

Welcome, Radalte. Glad you posted.

I believe in hate the sin/love the sinner.
I think sometimes it's easy to get hooked by the love-word into believing that means abandon yourself, though. It doesn't.

We were given our own lives. It's not evil to want to be happy. You can be kind to yourself while loving others. You are entitled to the space you take up, the oxygen you breathe. You have a right to be here, to find out how to be happy.

Love with detachment (not coldness, just a calm protective shield around your inner self).

I think for you the biggest enemy is toxic, persistent guilt.
I hope you can find help here to pull it away from your heart.

As a transient feeling to guide you away from harm, guilt makes sense. to me As a constant state...it's poison. It's just a compass bearing. It's not true north.

Welcome again, and thanks for sharing what's happening for you.

Hopalong

[Hopalong]

Hi TT,
How come you call this poster Ted?

Just curious....

Hops

[Certain Hope]

Welcome, Radalte

  You might benefit from reading Jac's recent thread re: true self/false selves. There's a big difference between being childlike and behaving in a childish manner, too! Nothing wrong with allowing your inner child to play a part in your entire personality, I don't think... just need to learn how to integrate all those various parts.

  About "hate the sin, love the sinner"... my interpretation of that does not include tolerance of evil.

Please join in here when you can! Looking forward to reading more from you.

With love,
Hope

[Hopalong]

(((((((((((((TT))))))))))))))))))

Thank you.

A LOT

love,
Hops

[Overcomer]

yES, Hate the sin and love the sinner in it's true form is fine - we all sin.  However, to let people keep getting away with their "sins" is just a form of enabling.  There is a certain time in life when the sin takes on a life of it's own and it's time to run away from the sinner.

ExaMPLE:  My ex..................my mom always said "hate the sin, but not the sinner.........."  But this jerk cheated on me over 25 times.......................left me for another woman...............my mom wouldn't let me divorce him.........................

[Hopalong]

Oh Kelly.
I think this is what you're so angry at your mother about.
Much more than anything to do with the business.

You must have felt so betrayed by the one who is supposed to put you first.

I'm so sorry. Women can do such terrible things to their daughters for the sake of propriety.
She was very wrong. (And in some part of her mind, she has rationalized it as right.)

I wonder what messages she got from her parents about the importance of a child's happiness?

Hops