Author Topic: N father  (Read 10452 times)

Gaining Strength

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Re: N father
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2006, 12:18:05 AM »
Hope - I am reading and thinking and going to spend some more time with this.  I'm going to think some more before I write.  Thanks - GS

Certain Hope

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Re: N father
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2006, 01:17:11 AM »
(((((((((Gaining Strength))))))))) Thank you. If a response isn't warranted, that's fine, too. To me, it's the tip of an iceberg, size unknown. I'll be thinking along with you and maybe in the light of a new day, the matter will be more clear, but all things in their due season.

Much love,
Hope

Hopalong

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Re: N father
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2006, 07:48:04 AM »
Morning, GS, my friend:
My day ahead is much brighter because of you. I am still functioning better since your understanding helped me get to a breakthrough moment.

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I have paid a huge price in my life for having to hide my point of view, my self expression.


I was wondering if this might be one explanation for the untidiness, paralysis about clearing/cleaning space? If you did a square foot, and another, etc....you would uncover clear space. And then...that would invite you to express your point of view, your pleasure in a poster, some art, a choice of paint for the wall, etc.

?????

Hugs,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: N father
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2006, 05:15:23 PM »
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There is a hostage taking mechanism at play here.  I don't quite have that figured out yet but I do think it is important.  Something transpired that caused these women who are not under the power of this abuser, to give in to the abuse.  It somehow goes to some understanding about why people in relationships with abusers continue to give in - like your friend, like me, like so many we know and read about.  I still don't get it - why do people give in to abuse?  I don't get it but I see from this story how unbearably controlling that abuse or threat of abuse is.

Hi GS,
I am so very sorry your father did not father you.  :(

I have thought about the "something transpired" and I know it's an oversimplification (especially as the big N in my own life is my mother)...but I believe with every fading watt in my brain bulb that:

THIS CULURE STILL TELLS WOMEN TO SUBMIT TO MEN'S REQUESTS, ORDERS, DOMINATION AND INITMIDATION. (Invasion, too, which is why I think you were in a bathroom in your dream.)

Even when our inner voices protest (hence the disorienting uncomfortable feelings) ... this programming is on most billboards, magazine covers, TV shows...it is EVERYWHERE. So pervasive that it astonishes me when people even pull their heads out of the haze enough to acknowledge that we are so far from finished with the liberation of women's spirits. And men's too, from their great burden.

(Caveat: those who know me know I hope...I don't do man-bashing. I just feel great grief for a twisting of our humanity over many generations that has led to such distortion of who we all could be.)

God bless good fathers everywhere. Including my departed own. (((((((((Dad))))))))

Hops
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 05:16:56 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

gratitude28

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Re: N father
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2006, 12:22:31 AM »
Hops,
Did something happen lately to make you especially angry about women/men in society? It seems that you are bringing up the idea often of women being placed on a lower scale. Why is this bothering you this week????
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

penelope

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Re: N father
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2006, 12:34:36 AM »
hi GS,

I just want to say that I love reading what you are writing.   It is very calming to me, as I can see the similarities in our experiences.  Also, to see that you're sorting through feelings, and finding your truth.  Thank you for sharing.  Just because I  don't always respond here, doesn't mean you're not having some impact on me.   :)

hugs,
p bean

Portia

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Re: N father
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2006, 07:25:27 AM »
Dear GS

When I hear "powerful truths" that are legitimate and reasonable views but that don't jive with my experience or my perspective I hope I will be able to hold my own understanding in the future.  I was absolutely not allowed to discent in my FOO.

I’m just finding my own beliefs and values and in finding them and having them questioned by others, they change too, get refined, every day.

How did I start finding my own values and voicing them? By rubbing up against others here (and only here, to be honest, talking to my radio doesn’t really count because there’s no feedback…) and finding a way to discuss without getting into huge ‘conflicts’, or without feeling shamed and silenced.

That confusion you said you felt…..I wonder what caused it. Maybe I sounded like your Dad for a moment back there, somehow, laying down the law, saying ‘this is how it is’? And while you had your own perspective, something was ‘attractive’ to you in nodding to ‘powerful’ words? This may not apply to you, but it sure has applied to me here. I like a ‘strong’ writer, an opinionated post. Sometimes the opinions voiced have entered me like a wave (me taking them in willingly); sometimes I’ve riled against them with such vigour that I can only be reacting to my FOO members. I still do it.

Does the act of writing help you a lot? I find that if I try and just *think* about what’s been said here sometimes, I can’t fathom out a conclusion for me – I have to write it here and see if I agree with myself….see how it looks on the board…does that make sense?

Please keep posting as you want to. Please keep using your eloquent voice. Discent and disagreement positively welcome I think, without it how do we grow? My opinion only, others do disagree on that I think (thank goodness :)). (((((GS)))))

Hopalong

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Re: N father
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2006, 09:37:24 AM »
Hi Beth,
I think it's peaking again for two reasons: one because it's real and deep and distresses me always to see the blind behavior of the culture and how it devalues all of us as whole human beings, and in the way I can relate to most, how it particularly devalues women. The role models for girls in the media have gotten worse (Madonna, Britney, Paris) although professionally, things are better.

The second reason is that I work in the same southern university (public-funded, state) from which I was once rejected as a student because they got away without admitting women undergraduates until the 1970s. Black men were admitted slightly earlier. (I began college in the late 60s). Anyway, working in that very same environment, reporting to a professor my own age who uses and manipulates female staff in a manner I consider ruthless (with no consequences)...has been demoralizing. Sure, there has been some change. At lower professional levels, women are now everywhere. But the top admnistration is overwhelmingly male, white, and wealthy. I think many of their class and sexual assumptions are played out in the way jobs beneath them throughout the system are structured and conducted.

My position is being eliminated for my boss' convenience, basically. But he's getting his last penny 'orth out of me.

It's not his gender that makes him this way. I've had competitive mean-spirited female bosses too (fewer, to tell the truth). But he does operate in an aura of privilege and superiority. He actually told a colleague that "you shouldn't really get friendly with the staff." My colleague, who's very sensitive to class issues, thought that was a shabby thing to say.

I also feel sad that many people seem to overlook that on average in this country, women still earn 70 cents to the male dollar, and often for the same type of work. My daughter's generation seems to feel it's not going to be an issue for them, but they're so young. When they are older, and find ageism piling on top of sexism, I feel very sad for the shock of that awakening that awaits them.

So it's a mixture of general and personal reasons. It is more grief than anger, for me. I think we're pretty numb to it, overall.

Thanks for asking, Beth. Don't know if that rings any chimes for anyone, but I think it's almost like creepoing air pollution. You live amid a busy culture that is putting out messages and begin to cough before you realize that you're breathing smog...but then, there's shopping and TV to distract you.

I'm glad to be able to pour some of it out on the board.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Portia

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Re: N father
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2006, 10:32:37 AM »
Hi Hops

Don't know if that rings any chimes for anyone

Yes, loads. Interesting, I earned 74% of what the previous incumbant (male) earned in my last job. I accepted it. My H said "refuse the promotion. Tell him you won't do the job without the salary." Good advice to think about. I didn't think about it. I carried on fetching and carrying and wiping up mess. I contributed to the culture in bucket-loads.

The culture is the way it is and it's far from perfect (but a whole lot better than many!). At least I can get a mortgage now on my own and own property in my name (big cheers) and I can vote! I have so much freedom, compared to....I value my freedoms hugely. 

Hops have you written for alternative women's mags? Or found one that you liked, maybe online? This one for example http://www.happywomanmagazine.com/ is not to my taste (it calls itself parody satire) but I don't know what's out there? Just thinking you have a good voice, lots to say and some people want to hear it! If not out there, well here too :D

Gaining Strength

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Re: N father
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2006, 01:05:30 PM »
I've been away for a few days - processing and busy.  What wonderful postings I find today in this thread.

Last week deep stirrings within me just pour out  - it felt like an infection working it's way to the surface, like a boil coming to a head.  This week I am further along, in a different place just slightly further along to continuum toward functioning.  The shame has shifted and today it is specifically "condemnation."  I cannot yet tell if condemnation is a synonym for shame or is a segment of shame.  It is very uncomfortable but I am willing to process this as I have been processing the shame. 

Thank you Plucky and teartracks and Certain Hope and Hopalong and jacmac and Penelope and Portia for you kind encouragements.  Your words are so much more than mere letters on a board.  They truly feed me, truly encouragement, truly give life.  I see that I am coming into my own life, as though the tunnel I am in is the birth cannal.  I am surprised that it is so painful.  Here I am trying to race a marathon and I haven't even been born yet.  I will have to slow down.

Certain Hope
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GS, I do not believe that we can "will" ourselves to shame-free health. I believe that true healing is a gift, like forgiveness, which we may only receive with open, empty hands. This is the basis of my own determination to empty my hands of anything which would fill them with useless, vain nothing-ness. I do believe in sanctuary, but we make a place safe for ourselves with fortifications; necessary safeguards, because not all of the infection is internal. You are sweeping your inner house clean and goodness  & light aren't the only forces seeking to fill the vacuum. You have made a giant leap here, imo, GS... you have chosen to trust yourself and your "instincts", the leading of the Spirit, whatever you choose to call it. The way I read you, you've taken a stand... in humility and strength, which is true meekness.
I am convinced that I cannot "will" myself whole.  I have tried.  It was like pushing the accelerator harder and harder while my wheel dug deeper and deeper into the mud.  The "healing as gift", "empty[ing]," and "fortifications" which you write about are wonderful concepts.  I love the set of verses about putting on Christ's armor.  I am going to take your thoughts with me onthis journey.  "Healing as gift," "empty[ing]," and "fortifications."   

I actually see "fortification" as the concept that goes to why people subject theemselves to abuse.  We do it because we have not developed enough fortification, whether that is because we are children and that fortification must be supplied for us or we have strayed outside the fortifications available to us knowingly or unknowingly or for what ever.  Growing up - we were to be protected and nurtured.  That nurturing includes showing us how to identify and surround ourselves with the fortifications that will allow us to thrive.  Thank you Certain Hope - this is a very pregnant concept that calls for so much development.

Hopalong,
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Quote
I have paid a huge price in my life for having to hide my point of view, my self expression.


I was wondering if this might be one explanation for the untidiness, paralysis about clearing/cleaning space? If you did a square foot, and another, etc....you would uncover clear space. And then...that would invite you to express your point of view, your pleasure in a poster, some art, a choice of paint for the wall, etc.

I think you have expressed something very meaningful for me.  You are tapping into an aspect that highlights the mechanism that holds the key, an aspect that keeps me stuck.  I also came to see, last week, that this untidiness (boy is that an understatement) is an outward expression of the inner shame.  That shame just grew and grew and grew until I could not contain it anymore and it has continued to grow outward, like a tumor, demanding that I see it, demanding that I address it.  Well I see it now.  I know what it is and where it came from.  One of the steps in addressing it will be to let go of the responsibility for generating the shame in the first place.  I have certainly done things that have fed it but part of the healing is for me to relinquish the responsibility, that I have held for so long, for its origin.  Only when I let that go - it did not, does not belong to me.  When I let that go, then I can pick up the responsibility for addressing it.

Back to your words Hopalong
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that would invite you to express your point of view
These gentle words point me to a frightening place.  This is what chains me, this is where I learned these maladaptive behaviors in order to save my life and now - you so kindly point out to me - I must let go of these maladaptive behaviors in order to live.  And addressing this is bringing up the inordinate fears that I suppressed as a child.  How astonishing it is that the very act of cleaning up my home can send me into fear for my life - but that is what it is.  Had I "express[ed] your [my] point of view" I would have risk my life, my psychological well being, my privilege of enjoying and partaking of the luxury afforded my as a child of my privileges family.  I would not have known how to "be" otherwise.  I see that be NOT expressing my point of view that I have walked the roads into a living hell and yet the fear that belonged to that child who could see no survival beyond sublimating her view, her desires is as real today as it was then. 

Thanks Hopalong - you have shown your light on that shackle.  I do have the tools to cut myself free from this one now that you have illuminated it.  First, I know that fear is false today - not false then - but false today and as I seek to address it I will continue to name it false.  thanks.  I'll let you know how it goes.  I ain't exactly intrepid so it may take some time to build up the courage to start cutting that chain but I do see my work before me.  Thank you.

jacmac
Your analysis of "nurturing', "securing", and "dancing" are very profound.  They definitely fit comfortably.  The whole isue of "dance" and the context you frame it in are too complex for me to take in and process immediately.  I thank you for this"dance" concept.  I am interested to spend time delving into "who" plays the role of rescuer, abuser and victim.  I am interested in learning which parts of me play each of those roles and who else plays those roles in my life.  Thank you for this complex image.  I will enjoy unraveling it.

Hopalong
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THIS CUTLURE STILL TELLS WOMEN TO SUBMIT TO MEN'S REQUESTS, ORDERS, DOMINATION AND INITMIDATION. (Invasion, too, which is why I think you were in a bathroom in your dream.)

Even when our inner voices protest.
"Women's ways of knowing" comes to mind when I read what you wrote.  Women's ways of knowing has been sublimated in favor of the power of money which has, culturally, belonged to men.  Tragically, it is the balance of the two that gives true power and true vitality.  Knowledge is also power.  I am truly oversimplifying for the sake of brevity but for sometime men held the power of thee purse and out of fear of the power of women's knowing choked out that vitality out of fear.  Everyone loses.  In my father's family history the eveidence of this is strikingly clear in the stories recounted by my father and his first cousins - about their paternal grandfather, his powerful wife and his extraordinary mother.  Part of the result of my father's lineage of strong women was misogynistic men in denial of their misogyny.  How's that for convoluted.  Power with fear is corrupting.  Power with confidence and compassion is life giving.  Power with fear is not in short supply in either gender.

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(Invasion, too, which is why I think you were in a bathroom in your dream.)
That's an interesting take.  I can see that.  The bathroom is a place of privacy, where disrobing and vulerability is revealed.  In the wild some predatory animals track their prey via their defecation.  My foundling sheepdog hides his poop. In 9 years I have rarely seen evidence of his packages. So I can see the bathroom as a symbol of vulnerability or a threat from power.

Portia
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That confusion you said you felt…..I wonder what caused it. Maybe I sounded like your Dad for a moment back there,
This is what I was trying to describe in that response that began Portia #16, me #17 etc.

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Does the act of writing help you a lot? I find that if I try and just *think* about what’s been said here sometimes, I can’t fathom out a conclusion for me – I have to write it here and see if I agree with myself….see how it looks on the board…does that make sense?
It really does help me.  But not just writing - writing here, where others are writing and reading and most significantly, understanding.

It's nice to have this place.  I see the day coming when I will be able to work again.  I am really becoming ready, really longing to go out and have a clear purpose each and every day, a clear structure beyond healing.  When I no longer have the luxury of writing here for a couple of hours.

Certain Hope

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Re: N father
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2006, 10:42:16 PM »
Dear Gaining Strength,

   Although progress may seem painfully slow to you, to me you are very clearly on a straight and steady course. I am so thrilled for you and only wish you could see yourself from my perspective. I think you are amazing.

Love,
Hope

Gaining Strength

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Re: N father
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2006, 10:45:32 PM »
Certain Hope,

Thanks so much for your perspective - it is very encouraging.  - GS

Hopalong

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Re: N father
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2006, 11:19:23 PM »
Hi Portia,
Thanks for your suggestion about the alternative women's mags...that's preaching to the choir, but I appreciate it.

I'm pretty demoralized right now and barely have the energy to do the intense mental focus on the editing (an increasing load) my boss is piling on me to get every scrap of my effort before he boots me out (with the excuse of funding...while he grooms a bright 23-y/o to take my place)...

But I hope to write for joy again one day.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

pennyplant

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Re: N father
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2006, 12:05:53 PM »
Hopsy,

You're a short-timer now.  That means you can slack off.  Don't do any more work than you usually do.  Who does he think he's kidding?  The "new girl" can just dig right in once she starts.  She can do whatever you leave unfinished.  It will be a learning experience for her.  In the long run, how much or how little you do in the next couple weeks won't matter.  So, be good to you for once.  Believe me, I have seen for myself how it is.  Nobody except you expects you to give 110% until the bitter end.

Just my two cents.

Pennyplant

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John Lennon

Hopalong

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Re: N father
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2006, 06:08:40 PM »
Thanks, PP...
trouble is, he holds the power to do a good or a negative reference, and I'm seeking another job in the same institution.

He knows it, too. So that's one reason it's a tough last mile.

I have taken the last two days to nurse back pain, it's better, I slept all day and will work all night since I have a 7:30 a.m. meeting...and will take a completed project in with me.

I'll be okay. Thank you for the support...I know my fear of him really represents my fear of a decision he's already made...to end my job.

So I have to do a lot of overwhelming things and make huge decisions (medical, legal, early retirement, unemployment, don't even know for sure) in the next few weeks, but I'll make it!!!

thanks again,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."