My Shame

[2bbetter]

Hopalong's more shame post got me thinking more, Thanks Hopalong !

I was very lucky it seems to have grown up in a non shaming foo.

I do realise now however that the depression & anger that started last year is from shame bigtime.

In my 'some background' post earlier, I'd mentioned 'leaving my business, country, friends etc' for this wonderful woman I'd met...

This is where my shame comes in. A 'succesful', conservative, experienced grown man blows it all so completely. I even threw a big combined party 'farewell me, meet T & engagement' with about 100 friends.

I was so ashamed of letting myself being fooled, conned, whatever you want to call it.

I was so ashamed at throwing away everything I'd worked bloody hard for, saved & gone without for...

I was so ashamed at now being in my mid forties and having NOTHING now. (materially... before you jump in here hehe)

So ashamed at TRUSTING (isn't that a terrible thing to be ashamed of, trusting someone you had so much physical and emotional intimacy with)

The list goes on, its amazing how many things you can feel ashamed about in one circumstance.

It was really bad for me because I'd gone without a lot to scrimp & save the previous few years, I was building a nest egg to rely on with whatever venture I was going into next. I was biding my time & looking for good options.

As a kid, I remember shame being used once by my Mom, in a very appropriate manner. I had shoplifted a cheap aluminium ring from a friend of hers shop. First & only time I ever did anything like that. (my sister told me later that 'it was just after I'd got out of hospital after a month in a burns ward... so I was bound to be a bit weird after that')

Anyway, mum finds out, is embarressed of course, drags me straight there, aologises, makes me apologise (& was probably angry with me for days, don't remember)

I realised yesterday that that was my first & I think only previous experience with real shame. From that moment onwards, the feeling you get after doing something that you feel ashamed of makes whatever the deed would be just so not worth it.

Listening to one's conscience huh.

It made me wonder if those of us that think about the repurcussions of what we do before we do them have a healthier regard for the contrast in our feelings, as in we don't usually feel this way, we normally feel pretty good, & just won't do certain things cos we know we'll feel guilt or shame.

[Hopalong]

You are very welcome.
I don't know which post that was but I'm glad it helped.

You sure are doing some deep thinking about things, 2bb...

I remember that literally on the wedding night of my second marriage (heck, there were even signs at the reception) I found out about Mr. Hyde, and apart from shock, I felt mostly terrible shame. How could I not stay in this marriage? I'd even had friends fly from across the U.S.! That constricting shame kept me from doing exactly what I should have done if I'd had any wisdom or self-esteem then...march myself straight to a judge for an annullment. To this day, I profoundly regret every minute I stayed in a situation that could only be corrosive to my spirit, no matter how much I got off on being noble.

(((((2bb)))), take care of yourself.

Hops

[Plucky]

Hi 2bb,
I did what Hoppy did.  I got married to avoid the shame of calling off the wedding.  What a dumb mistake.   I immediately knew it, and I only compounded the mistake by staying with it.  I was finally able to divorce after a friend told me, 'if you've made a mistake, the best thing is to acknowledge it right away and correct it'.
How did you end up in the burn ward?
Plucky

[Certain Hope]

Hi 2b

Re:  I was so ashamed of letting myself being fooled, conned, whatever you want to call it.

I was so ashamed at throwing away everything I'd worked bloody hard for, saved & gone without for...

I was so ashamed at now being in my mid forties and having NOTHING now. (materially... before you jump in here hehe)

Me, too! Especially ashamed for being so gullible, as I saw it, for believing and trusting that a human being could actually value and cherish me as much as I cherished and valued him (speaking of my NPD ex-husband, here). I thought that everyone listened to his own conscience... obviously that's not the case. Since him, I've come to terms with several other individuals in my life who have attempted to deposit their own shame onto me by sidestepping facts/ the truth and trying to put the focus on the emotional aspect of our relationship. Love can transcend a multitude of wrongs, but not when it's based on a demand to tolerate evil.

You mentioned that you were  So ashamed at TRUSTING (isn't that a terrible thing to be ashamed of, trusting someone you had so much physical and emotional intimacy with)

.....and I wondered, was it truly emotional intimacy as in a give-and-take arrangement? That's the way I'm now picturing authentic emotional intimacy... a flow, back and forth, not just 2 waterfalls pouring out simultaneously into 2 different pools. Sometimes I think an illusion of this sort of intimacy is created when there's the presence of strong emotions on the parts of each person involved, without the co-mingling that genuine appreciation for the other's feelings brings into play. (Hope that makes sense)

Re. this:  It made me wonder if those of us that think about the repurcussions of what we do before we do them have a healthier regard for the contrast in our feelings, as in we don't usually feel this way, we normally feel pretty good, & just won't do certain things cos we know we'll feel guilt or shame.

Makes sense to me intellectually, but I've come to realize that I've only ever felt really pretty good is when I'm performing well, so... I dunno.

Also, like Hops and Plucky, I got into marriage (in my case, with NPD ex) knowing that he was all wrong, yet feeling that I had to stick it out because I'd already committed myself and also because my mother had pointed out re: my relationships with men:
"You certainly don't have a very good batting average".  So yes, shame was a big part... as was my own stubborn nature, I think ~
I was determined to prove her wrong.

Thanks for bringing some more thoughts to the surface here, all of you.

Hope

[2bbetter]

Hi Gang

Oops, apologies, 'more on shame' thread was started by GS

Plucky: I burnt myself playing with matches. I still remember the pretty blue flame that popped up when a lit match was dropped into a jar of thinners used to clean paintbrushes !

CH: No, it certainly wasn't truly intimacy after all. Thats the most cruel part about it. That someone could take a persons honesty and expressions of intimacy (I actually wrote a letter her about how much I enjoyed the intimacy we had when we were chatting before we met. It was about how I felt that intimacy is like string theory in that it is fundamental to relationships) and use it, pervert, it to their agenda, without regard for the others feelings. Indeed, contempt for their feelings and them as a person. And then to continue on, sleep together, use the word LOVE, whilst all the time lying, cheating, stealing...

A shrink said last year " you have to understand that 2B doesn't separate sex and intimacy" I'm still not sure what that really means, all I know is the very few times I've have tried sex without it, it's been at worst impossible and at best dissapointing for want of a better word.

I do remember explaining with "If I'm not into her, I'm not into her",and I still feel the same way.

Its SO ironic, in our first conversation she asked 'what pisses you off?", my answer was "Dishonesty, Deceit & Cucumber"

Well, she never fed me cucumber !

[Certain Hope]

Hey, 2b,

   If I'd told NPD ex husband that cucumber ticked me off, he woulda lectured me on the multiple benefits of the glorious  cuke and made sure we had them with every meal! 

  Hope you have a great day! 

Hope

[2bbetter]

HAHA Thanks CH

Interesting day, am back in OZ for a week or so with my lovely foo. Dad is on his last breaths (been hospitalised for months - final cancer stages)

Poor guy is one third of his previous weight, on a morphine continuous flow pump thing.

He's had no food or water (no drip either) for a week now, & he is still holding on. Staff can't fathom it.

We all just take turns being with him, telling him we love him, and wait. I hope he gets peace soon.

[pennyplant]

((((2bb)))))

Several of us here have sat by someone's bedside as you are now.  He will go when he is ready, I believe.  It is very hard to let go of life.  My best to you.

Love, Pennyplant

[Certain Hope]

Dear 2b,

  My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family for comfort and encouragement through this time.

Big hugs.

With love,
Hope

[moonlight52]

AWWWWWW 2BB.

Back in OZ Its not easy I am sending prayers also .

MoonLight

[Gaining Strength]

2bbetter

I hope he gets peace soon.
I hope it for him and for all of you.  I have just been through the wait with my aunt who died last Friday.  I am sorry you are there now.

Gaining Strength
 
 
 

[Gaining Strength]

Certain Hope

If I'd told NPD ex husband that cucumber ticked me off, he woulda lectured me on the multiple benefits of the glorious  cuke and made sure we had them with every meal! 

Were you married to my father?  And if I told my father that I wanted something - I could be certain that I would not receive it.  On a rare occassion I might receive some twisted version of what I had wanted - usually upgraded but never what I had wanted.  And then the worst - "You are so unappreciative."  I am convinced that my fathers NPD came primarily by being held "unappreciative" for what was dumped on him.   - Gaining Strength

[moonlight52]

GS ,

This is the truth as you say the cycle all N's have been wounded deeply this understanding is so very important exactly as you say.

This understanding has removed bitterness within me and I have compassion also the added benefit of no bipolar meltdowns when I am with a N.

With this understanding I have given my self I have freedom to know who I am truly.I am much more helpful to others.

My father will never see who I AM AND IT IS PEACEFUL IN MY HEART FINALLY.
I DO NOT NEED FOR HIM TO SEE WHO I AM TO BE WHO I AM .BIG THANKS TO ALL HERE.

 BIG HUGS TO YOU (((((((((((((((((((GS)))))))))))))))))))))))))

HAVE A GOOD DAY 

Much love to you

moon

[Certain Hope]

Hi, Gaining Strength,

  My npd ex husband was a gift-giver, unlike most (per my reading), but he was unable to select gifts based on what the recipient might like and enjoy. He would generally choose something that he liked and assume that they'd appreciate it as well. One thing that always struck me as very odd = he had this mental image of his mother as being obese ... and she wasn't! We'd see her several times a year and she may have been a size 14 at most, but certainly not obese, and I never knew her weight to fluctuate. This topic would arise if ever I suggested that we purchase an item of clothing to send as a gift. He'd insist that she was at least 225# (which was his weight, by the way) and always pick something that I knew would be at least 3 sizes too large. I don't know what to make of that.


Re:  I am convinced that my fathers NPD came primarily by being held "unappreciative" for what was dumped on him.

  That is something I've never considered, per se, but... unacknowledged, yes... you know, whenever a holiday or his birthday would come around, he was convinced that his mother would be sure to come visit him, send him some awesome gift, because, after all,
"I'm the baby," he said.    He even convinced her to appear at our final divorce hearing. I never saw her look so sad and worn.
I dunno, GS, I don't think anyone taught this man to be unnappreciative... but God only knows.

Love,
Hope
 

[Hopalong]

(((((2bb))))
A peaceful vigil for you and gentle passing for your dad.
I'm sorry.

Hops