The Stranglehold of Narcissism

[WRITE]

I'd like to say I can imagine it must be very painful to lose your friendship, after such happy connection.

I haven't been following any of your discussion but I can tell you about something which happened to me during my worst mental illness.

I became extremely involved with my friend M who was going through a separation and subsequent divorce from a NPD. Much of the closeness was empathy which we had both been short of, plus where we live is a rather dry community for free spirits. At some point a physical attraction developed from this which I know now was not a genuine thing on my part- I have seen her many times since and have no sexual feelings for her! It was a byproduct of mania. For her it was a flirtation as she got up courage to believe she could have other relationships outside of her horrible marriage, her husband had trashed her terribly and she was just practising her seduction skills!

Well one day we had a few drinks and were somewhat out of control and I kissed her, not exactly sexually but definitely over her boundary, and she fled.

We had touched a point of boundary-setting not just between us but in defining ourselves I can see now. At the time it was just confusing and we were both ashamed, for being out of control, and for potentially wrecking our lovely friendship.

Because I was the one who was acting out the most- I kissed her plus I knew it was not a very kind thing for me to do- if she had fallen in love with me I didn't really want that- so I took the responsibility for what happened and periodically apologised and said 'I know we can't be as close now but can we leave the door open & keep in touch'. She responded 'yes, but not now'.

At first it was touchy and we argued a couple of times because she didn't get the severity of my illness, and also what I realise now is we were pushing each other's boundaries and being judgemental or interfering, some of the things we talked about we weren't giving each other support we were telling what to do, subtly criticising etc, anyway at the time it seemed like everything we said irritated or misunderstood the other.

But there was a genuine love and affection for each other underneath, and as I say this empathy we had shared.

Well, despite all this and the fact I did not see her for a long time, we both held each other in our hearts. And time healed the shame and my illness and she went off to have a raunchy sexual affair with a guy and I did tons of therapy and avoided guys...and we agreed to differ on that and recognised we had become polar opposites on it.

What I am saying I guess is what I said about something else another time: nothing is written in tablets of stone. It's not necessarily permanent when a connection falters. It's not irreparable when boundary-setting seems more important than the overall connection.

I never knew this really- I was raised that it was ALL or NOTHING. The sequence of events which even now makes me cringe somewhat became a very liberating experience and led to a deeper connection in the end which was- we are very different and we can't always be intense, but we do genuinely love and admire and remain for each other, in a less perfect but really more perfect way! We had lunch last week and it was very pleasant to relax and enjoy someone's company who has seen me at my worst and loves me anyway...

Ok, I don't have time for church today so that can be my 'confessional'. I look back now and just roll my eyes at myself...but I am not penitent or seeking absolution because even writing it all down I can smile and see there was no 'sin' there really, just people being human. Indulgence would be nice though 

[Hopalong]

I feel close to my best friend because we've had some real struggles over boundaries (me wanting more privacy than she, basically) and we even went to a counselor together once...

We had to redraw some boundaries and go through some awkward months, but at the base, we really do care about each other and will always be there for each other when the other needs help, and that means a lot in this life (especially if you're without family support).

I also think we're closer because we worked our way past a rift, and forgave in both directions, and found a way to coexist with new boundaries, and we don't take stuff as personally as we used to. I have a lot of respect for her.

Write, I can't see one thing wrong or wicked about your dance with intimacy with her. And I think it's wonderful that you still have the friendship, likely stronger than even (if not as intense).

One good thing for my friend and me is that we both reached out to strengthen other, separate friendships too. She has her own women's group, I have the board and a few other friends she's not met.

I'm happy you two worked it out...it's a good story. Somebody loves you.
Buddhist people are so calming to me...I think it's a wonderful practice.

I'm going to fight off the desire to stay in bed all day and go to church.
Not sure how indulgence applies to lapsed Catholics, but you've got mine!

Hops

[WRITE]

Not sure how indulgence applies to lapsed Catholics, but you've got mine!

Thank you.
We're all in my culture 'lapsed Catholics' really...
Fortunately G_d doesn't much care about religion!

Hope you enjoy church, I have been enjoying the UU s again since I decided to be more descriminating and only participate in what feels right to me, also to be a Christian Unitarian and personally circumvent the 'magic thinking' vs. knowledge thing which UU s struggle with!

Oh here's another resource for empowering your employment situation Hops http://www.wishcraft.com/
The whole book is free here and perhaps more in tune with your practical side as opposed to my abstractness! I especially like the mingled concept of 'dreamers who do'

Hope everyone is enjoying Sunday. I'm doing 'church' on the beach later- the sound of the waves can be my prayer and calm.

[Portia]

Hi

There are a couple of things I’d like to clarify.

Hope and Hops: I didn’t have a bad or crappy day on Thursday, I had a really interesting, good, thought-provoking day but it was exhausting and long! Did you think I was posting in a sad/angry/annoyed/upset way? I wasn’t.

Hops:

I agree with you that anyone is free here to post or ask questions on any thread. My earlier post was trying to say that to Jac by way of questions; because I can throw a pebble in a pond and let it go.

There is never a guarantee that a person who's upset may not respond with anger or by scolding. The challenge is not to take it personally. Sometimes when I'm asked to be quiet, not participate, etc., I feel shamed. That doesn't necessarily mean I did anything wrong...it means I was well-trained to feel shame when someone corrects me or tells me I've made a mistake.

((((((((((((((((Hops)))))))))))))))))

I hope you lose this Hops. I don’t feel like this: I don’t feel shamed and I haven’t done anything wrong, in my opinion. If people respond to me with anger or scolding, I see that as an opportunity for them, and me.

Anyone can try to correct me or tell me I’ve made a mistake, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with them.

Not taking something personally is not the same ignoring someone who is being disrespectful and treading on someone’s rights. Not taking it personally doesn’t mean not speaking or acting. Not taking it personally means attempting to evaluate the situation realistically and without emotional reactions, I think.

There's a part of me that even after all these years of work will still pop in and say, of course, the person who tells me to shut up is right, and there was something wrong with me for speaking.

((((((((((((Hops))))))))) hope you can kick that unhelpful voice into the long grass.
 
In a healthy system, you are always free to comment.

I agree!  Preferably with respect for other people's right to do the same.


Write, I agree with you here:

nothing is written in tablets of stone. It's not necessarily permanent when a connection falters. It's not irreparable when boundary-setting seems more important than the overall connection.

Boundaries, often misunderstood I feel. I’ll say again that boundaries are internal and cannot be forced on to other people. A boundary acted upon involves the person setting the boundary with themselves: it does not mean forcing someone else to do something. Anyone can request that I do something or not do it: if they have a boundary, it means that if I go against their wishes, they will act. Their boundaries do not make me act. Their boundaries make them act. 

[Certain Hope]

ok Portia .... "long day, exhausted, don't feel so good" = translated to "bad" in my head.

I thought you sounded sad, not angry, and just wanted to comfort you.

Thanks for the previous hugs.

(((((((((((((Portia))))))))))))  ~ delayed return hug

Hope

[Portia]

Thank you for the hugs Hope, I did appreciate them and do so now too! I had had enough that day, much talking, thinking and interacting - it filled my head up so it needed sleep. Maybe I was sad too, exactly at the time of posting, sad about what I'd read; and what I said was as ever intended for who I address: I guess I can be confusing sometimes because I will change tone and style depending on who I'm talking to. Is that a bad thing? I don't know. All attempts at communication have potential problems I think. When in Spain I try to speak Spanish and sometimes it works, sometimes I have to resort to body language, gesticulating, pointing, smiling and generally making a fool of myself. But it's still communication (((((((Hope)))))))

[WRITE]

Anyone can request that I do something or not do it: if they have a boundary, it means that if I go against their wishes, they will act. Their boundaries do not make me act. Their boundaries make them act. 

yup. I think having boundaries is so you don't have to do emotional cut-off too often & so you don't trash anyone else.

When I was still traumatised I built a giant wall around me though- took time to trust people enough to come anywhere near.

I still do this now sometimes, and then there's the whole 'mute withdrawal is a major INFJ defence' thing!

[Portia]

'mute withdrawal is a major INFJ defence'

Now I get it, I understand one thing I haven't about you before. ((((((((((((((((((write))))))))))))))))) (glad you're not mute today)

(If I'm mute, I'm more likely thinking, or busy, rather than feeling! I wonder what the INTJ defence is? Major intellectualising with a spot of dictating? )

[WRITE]

I would prefer to walk away and think about what to do next so it suits me, it's also extremely effective at putting the ball firmly in someone else's court when there's nothing else you can do!

I don't do the stropping off in a huff thing much now I'm getting er old- the Bette Davis/Baby Jane behaviour makes me cringe, though I work with a few people who are a bit old to talk with a baby voice and tantrum to get their way and still do it!

Major intellectualising with a spot of dictating?

 

George Lucas is an INTJ, makes me wonder what he'd be like if he hadn't read Joseph Campbell!

[Hopalong]

Really glad I misunderstood, P.
I had thought you were quite hurt...wasn't familiar with that tone from you.

But, natch, I was probably projecting how I personally feel when I am invited to buzz off. 

So, happies, hugs all 'round...

Hops

[Portia]

Write

I would prefer to walk away and think about what to do next so it suits me, it's also extremely effective at putting the ball firmly in someone else's court when there's nothing else you can do!

Or nothing else you want to do? 

I don't do the stropping off in a huff thing much now I'm getting er old- the Bette Davis/Baby Jane behaviour makes me cringe, though I work with a few people who are a bit old to talk with a baby voice and tantrum to get their way and still do it!

Patience with folks like that is something I wish for. One man in my life doesn’t use a baby voice but he sure does tantrum. Started to ignore it and it seems to work, so far.


Hi Hops, thanks for your reply. Do you think Jac was only telling me to buzz off? Buzz off might have read like: “Thanks for your post. I’m not continuing this conversation and I won’t be answering you” which would be to the point and stating the position. If someone states their position that plainly, why should anyone be hurt? “Please buzz off” – “oh, okay!” would be two people interacting with mutual respect I think. Something completely different happened here I think, not that I want to analyse it in black and white, but to say Hops, what you see, I see differently.

My tone. I didn’t want to have a tone to the post but I can read two possible interpretations and I wish it didn’t have a tone, I wish it was simply logical questions (which it mainly is, I think). If you look back at my earlier first post, do you think I was acting as go-between, inserting myself between Jac and Hope, trying for reconciliation? Don’t want to prolong this unnecessarily but wondered if these thoughts might interest you Hops; if not, I’m happy to let it go . and hugs (((((Hops)))))

[Certain Hope]

Now I'm wondering, what is the "ISTJ" thing to do?

And if you were a certain combination of letters years ago, in the midst of a horrendous sort of life upheaval, are you necessarily the same jumble of letters now?

((((((((((Portia))))))))) I am liking this hug fest 

You didn't ask me, but I never did think you were acting as a go between. You did, however, state that it was an hold habit of yours from the past to act as such, but ... seems best to me not to hold somebody to an admitted proclivity (almost said weakness, then chickened out) from the past.??....  Anyhow, I didn't assume anything about your intentions here, true to my new, improved, never-try-to-judge(aka guess)-another's-motivations method of relating. And no, I won't ask ya whether you're proud of me for that, although it would be ok with me if you were 

Ain't communication grand??

Hope

[Hopalong]

Wall, P...I'm pretty comfortable with I just plain old missed it.

I think I was probably projecting...yep, I'm sure I was.

I think with this one I'll skip more analysis, if that's okay. Ready to pick up new threads and up the quilting bee...

hugs,
Hops