Author Topic: Double Bind  (Read 7424 times)

Certain Hope

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2006, 09:49:12 PM »
((((((((Beth))))))))  me, too... struggling with resentments while discovering new shades of meaning to words like longsuffering, charity, patience... and learning not to pick up offenses, even when they're dumped in a smelly heap at my feet. I'm with you in the battle, for what it's worth.

Hope

Stormchild

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2006, 09:49:33 PM »
((((((((((Beth))))))))))

the truly cool thing is that you can let go of hate and resentment without having to let go of reality and perceptiveness..... :cool: :cool: :cool: !!!

I love Hops' crocodile analogy too. It's right on target... you can also love without having to let go of reality and perceptiveness...... it feels different than the love we're used to, but it's love none the less.

Love that doesn't require us to harm ourselves in order to prove that love is what we feel. What a concept!!!!!!

[And I'm not dissing sacrificial love here, not at all. There's sacrifice, and there's self-destruction. And there's a BIG, HUGE difference between them.]
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

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moonlight52

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2006, 04:32:07 AM »
AMAZING                    LOVE TO ALL BEINGS   Thread is great!!!!!!!!!!

             BUT BE SAFE.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Stormy and Hops)))))))))))))))))))))))))))


                YOU ROCK  8)

P.S..About gift giving I take such pleasure in picking out a gift ,I had to be careful not to tell my mom I liked something of hers.
One time I admired a ring she had she took it off her hand put it on mine and said see how lovely it looks on a young hand.(I was 27)
I put that ring on my oldest d hand and got the pleasure of saying the same loving words to my oldest d at the same age.

October

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2006, 05:53:27 AM »
I pulled this out of another thread because this is exactly what's been on my mind although I didn't have a name for it.
We got a million presents for Christmas every year. If you didn't show instant wonder and amazement in each one, my parents were disappointed. Like wise with doing anything "special." If you liked one thing, it meant you didn't like another. Everything you did in some way was made to seem as if it took away from something else. It is mind numbing. And it goes on for me now as well...
Love you all,
Beth

OOoooh, I know what you mean.  I went to a show in London with d last week, for my birthday, and my aunt (among others) enthused about it beforehand, and told me at great length how much I would enjoy it.  Then when we got back, and were speaking to her on the phone, she said, how did you find the show?  I said, "It was very good."  So she said, "Only very good?"   :shock:

Which begs several questions.  What part of 'very good' means it was crap, and just how much enthusiasm would have done for her?  After having it hyped to death beforehand, it would have had to be exceptional indeed to meet the expectations which other people raised, and to be perfectly honest, it didn't.  Bits were as good as that, but bits certainly weren't, and there were two distinct halves which did not match or meet one another, imo.  It was trying to be two things at once, and failed to be either completely because of it.

So, does it become a criticism of her taste if I cannot enthuse in the same way, or does it become a failing in me, that I cannot appreciate as she can?  And at what point am I allowed to be me?   :?


October

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2006, 06:05:46 AM »

Narcissists are always very bad gift givers. That seems to be the one constant that every child of a narcissist immediately recognizes.

This is so true. 

Only the other day (Monday) my parents said to me about going out on my bike with d.  I said I don't have a bike, and they were both surprised because in their world view (from my teen years), I do have a bike.  I said that was years ago, I haven't had a bike for several years now.

So then my dad said there was an old bike in their garage that I could have if I wanted.  Again, this is a distortion.  There is such a bike, but the brakes do not work, and it is unrideable, imo.  If you want to stop you have to achieve it other than by brakes.  It is a very old, very heavy bike that my Nmum probably got from a boot sale (she is addicted to buying tat from boot sales and passing it off as golddust) and I would not like to even try to ride it.  Dad used to ride it sometimes, when taking my d out when she was small, but that was 10 years or so ago, and it was unrideable then.

So I declined, and said I would get a new bike one day.  Which equates in their world view to me being a snob, and not satisfied with second best.  But in the real world it is something to do with my deserving better than a bike fit for scrap, and which is dangerous to ride.

Why is it ok for me to be offered an old, heavy, dirty, dangerous, (man's) bike?  What about me makes that ok, and what I deserve?   :?

October

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2006, 06:14:27 AM »
On edit.... another weird deal... he'll make his wooden crafts for other people at church and then tell them that it's from me... what in the world that is about I have no clue. He sends me cards that other people have sent him and then tells me to save them for him. It's like he wants me to see how important he is to these other people. I really don't understand.


It looks as if your dad has no idea at all of the difference between you and him.  His boundaries are so diffuse that to him you are one and the same person - he cannot abuse you because you are part of him.  It is like saying, can I abuse my arm?  Of course not; it is mine.  There is no place where I end and my arm begins.  One and the same. 

It looks as if the reason he wants you to keep his tat is that you are the custodian of his reputation.  He has relied on you all these years to make him feel good about himself, and you have to keep on doing that forever.  Same with him giving gifts to other people in your name; you are one and the same to him.

This is a form of emotional incest, and whether or not it has included actual incest (which I think very likely, as he will have no reason to maintain this boundary, when there are no others, and because this replicated itself with your own d and her dad), it is just as damaging for the child and the adult you have become.  I think you need to work very hard at establishing some boundaries for yourself, and then (not immediately, as they will be too fragile) communicating those boundaries to him.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 06:27:14 AM by October »

October

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2006, 06:20:49 AM »
Quote

The other day I heard that my father had taken one of my cousins on as a project.  He took her to a very nice jewelry store and bought her jewelry for no particular occassion.  Then he went across the circle and bought her two new tires for her car and then while they sat in an sandwich shop he went on and on about how she should make an effort to see her father and how nice her father is etc., etc. 

Her father has been divorced from my father's sister for almost 30 years.  My cousin is somewhat butch, has limited social skills, has never married and has had only one boyfriend about 20 years ago. But the real kicker is that my uncle sexually abused her when she was a child.   This has never been talked about openly but my family knew this without knowing any of the details.  So why would my father do this to her?  Besides my father never cared for my uncle.  He tolerated him when he and my aunt were married but had very little respect for him.  So what is in him NPD mind that he would pretend there was anything good in this man - was is really about me rather than about my cousin?  Who knows - How could he just pretend that the sexual abuse never happened?  In part because he doesn't believe in sexual abuse.  I know, I know - that sounds insane but still ----------.

GS

I would say, whatever an N says or does, it is always about them.  It looks as if your dad is trying to rewrite the family script, with the heading "How To Behave With Honour and Respect to a Dad, Starting with ME". 

Either way he wins.  If you get the message, you treat him well.  If your cousin falls for it, she thinks him an ok person.  If she actually gets in touch with her dad, he will be very grateful to your dad.  Win win all round for the N, as long as the lies are believed.  And watch for that unbridled rage all round if they are not believed.

As I mentioned above, sexual abuse does not exist for Ns, because for abuse to occur there has to be another person there, not just a part of your own body.  Children are not separate people to them, and cannot be abused.  They gave you life, and they have every right, including the right to take that life away again, as a result.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 06:30:09 AM by October »

October

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2006, 06:23:45 AM »

When considering these things from the stance of mercy, it's clear that God loves narcissists just as much as He loves everyone else [in fact, the narcissists are sure He loves them more than anyone].


I am not sure Ns can have a concept of God, other than as an extension of themselves.  Every single one is a new Incarnation; God made flesh and dwelling among us.   :?

As for mercy, that is fine.  Commit them to God's merciful care, and then get the hell out of there >>>>>>>>>>

October

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2006, 06:37:42 AM »
While we are on the subject of gifts, here is my birthday story.  Two years ago, I bought a small, green plastic table for my garden.  I liked it so much that I bought two green plastic chairs, to match.  Then d and I could sit out with our table and chairs, and I was happy with that.  They were cheap, but not rubbish cheap.  They were ok.

Then last year, when d started home ed, I bought a larger table, dining table size, so that on fine days she could sit out and work on the patio, which she does.  So I have two green chairs, a large green table and a smaller table, all to match.

One day over the summer my parents came to visit, and sat at that large table with tea and cake, and smoking.  Because we only have two chairs, I brought out another folding chair for d and a kitchen chair for me.  No worries. 

About a week later, visiting my parents, they said they had a present for me.  It was two folding garden chairs, with silver frames and white seats and back.  They said they had bought them because we needed them, and so that next time they visit I won't have to take kitchen chairs onto the patio.  I don't know what they cost, but probably three times as much as my green plastic ones.

I found it very difficult indeed to smile at this, and pretend any kind of gratitude for a present which is to blatently not for me, but for them.  I gave one to d for her bedroom and the other is in the spare room for when she has a friend over to play on the computer.  I told my parents that I didn't want them to get spoiled in the garden, and would wait for good weather.  What is actually true is that green next to white and silver makes what I had look cheap and nasty, when actually it is fine.

Or am I just an ungrateful, spoilt cow?   :(

Gaining Strength

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2006, 12:01:50 PM »
Quote
Or am I just an ungrateful, spoilt cow?
No.  You tapped into something that was not quite right in their motive but you can't put your finger on it exactly.  You are close when you say that they bought them for you but there is more and that's why you have a little room to doubt your assessment.  Something in the gift hurt your feelings.  Keep working at it.  When you get it you will get a little more healing.

GS

Gaining Strength

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2006, 12:03:52 PM »
October
Could the message be that "you are not enough?"  That is one that I get. - GS

moonlight52

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2006, 12:22:41 PM »
HI All ,

I get the message I am not enough and my oldest daughter does try and correct me .I get comments like I will be a better parent than you were and
she probably will but she was given a voice and not physically abused.
I know in her head she understands this but I am hoping for this to flow on thru to her heart.

Although since I have been improving as a parent her respect level for me has risen.And she is less critical.
I guess she has seen my father disrespect me and it has effected her.That's OK and I understand
and know she will come to this realization as well.
But sometimes I would like some validation from somewhere.I do get it from Mr moon.

MOON :(

Gaining Strength

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2006, 12:50:05 PM »
(((((((((((((((Moon))))))))))))))))))))))

I am so sorry Moon.  I hope my son is a better parent than I am but I am truly doing the best I can - it's not quite enough but it is fathoms better than wat I got. 
It would be so terribly painful to have him say so.  But I have a while - he is only 5.

Daily I turn my parenting over to God.  I ask for his help and for his healing for my precious son.
And then I trust in this.  Take good courage in your validation from Mr. Moon.  Let it grow in your
heart until it becomes sufficient.  Know that by the very fact that you are letting your daughter
complain to you that you are loving her in a way that you did not get.  Put on the armor against
the hurt that comes  - "Don't take it personally" her complaints give her some kind of relief - let it go - do not catch it
or own it - it is not yours.  Love from your friend - Gaining Strength

Certain Hope

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2006, 03:39:19 PM »
((((((((Moon))))))))) your oldest is not a mama yet, is she? Someday her heart will know, I believe.

GS ~ Daily I turn my parenting over to God.  I ask for his help and for his healing for my precious son.
And then I trust in this. 
   

Amen, me, too.

I like this saying:  God doesn't call the equipped, He equips the called!

Great comfort there.

Love,
Hope

moonlight52

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Re: Double Bind
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2006, 04:07:43 PM »
Gs and Hope  ,

No my oldest D is not a mama yet.So I know experience is quite different than what she imagines.
When I read your posts I knew that I want  to remember my Faith.

My oldest is 27 and she knows more than I did at her age.She does respect that I have given good support to her and she has learned from her own experience.
So only occasionally do I get criticized.It is usually about what I should have done differently raising her.
That made me understand my father more.

The cycle has been broken with all of my siblings with children none were raised with physical abuse.My d knows that and respects me for my journey as I respect her
journey.

My father criticizing me for years in front of my children and h has not been a good thing .Not only for me but this is no favor for my children not healthy.
I see that now.

I am now being the example I want to be for them now.

(((((((((((((((((((((((Hope))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((GS)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

THANK YOU VERY MUCH
HUGS
MoonLight