Lightbulb moments

[adrift]

I had read much of the "N as Sabateur" thread but it didn't click until awhile ago that that is what H (hubby) does.  His mom is a pretty classic N, although she's getting  pretty mild as she gets older but she always gets in a dig at her hubby (my hubby's dad) and at my SIL if she's around. She used to throw darts at me until I gave her "what for" one day many years ago.  Anyway, I'm just realizing how much of his mother's N traits H has.  Most of you are thoroughly sick of hearing about our oldest D's "problems", but I've never mentioned how from an early age her dad kinda turned on her.  He would always manipulate the situation to make it out to be her fault, and I went along with him sometimes just to help preserve some peace.  I remember when D1 (daughter #1) was about 5 or 6 and if H came home from work and she didn't run to hug him or greet him in some way, then he would ignore her.  My mom pointed this out to me and when I pointed out to H he said that why should he go greet her if she was going to ignore him.  This was all about the time our second child was born and my mom kept pointing out to me how my H would make over D#2 and ignore D1, but no matter what I said to him, I couldn't get him to change.  D1 and H have had a pretty adversarial relationship ever since.  Funny thing is, H has never been the brunt of his mom's attacks, NEVER, and he's never been fault-finding with her.  He might not like what she does, but he's never stood up to her not even when she would be berating me in front of his family   That's why I finally took up for myself.  Course, he used to berate me plenty in front of his family too, and in front of everyone else and always justified what he said and how he acted because it was all due to something I HAD DONE.  What little bit of self-esteem I ever had certainly disappeared during those years.  Today D1 called and said her car wouldn't crank again (second time in a few weeks, last time we put a new battery in) H got all bent out of shape and said to me (not to her thank goodness) that he thinks she's making up the car thing just to get attention.  H is in the middle of building bookcases and he said, "She knows we're building bookcases and she's not the center of attention and that's what this is all aobut" 

Hello  I just stared at him and then got really pissed and told him he's crazy.  She isn't making it up (as has been proved out now a few hours later after having to get a friend to jump start her car, etc...) and that I can't believe he thinks she'd do that.  Then he got mad at me for getting defensive of her. Then it dawned on me that the behavior he's attributing to D1 is exactly something his mom WOULD do.  So it's some kind of projection thing and I guess has been for years.  Not that it makes it o.k. with me. He has been impossible so many times.  As a sabateur, I can't count the times, well actually I can because it would be 100% of them, that we've ever gone somewhere as a family or even just me and him together that either 1) he didn't blow his top about something one of us did or 2) I had to stuff my feelings and smile and put up with his barbs or grumpiness just to keep some peace.  My birthday is coming up and I mentioned to him that it sure was funny he could make plans to be off work for bird hunting but not my birthday (he's never been one to do anything special for me, except on a really rare occassion and then it's supposed to be applauded like crazy) so after I griped enough he said he'd take off for my birthday but by then I'd already made plans to go out with my cousins and I told him nevermind. The truth is, I'll have fun with my cousins but if he were along he'd raing on the parade. 

He did start treating me some better about a year ago when he found out about my EA (emotional affair), it kinda shook him.  Like his mom, he thinks the way he treats us is fine and doesn't see how he hurts us and he never dreamed I'd be unfaithful.  I guess he thought if his mom could/can treat his dad like crap and his dad would continue to take it then I would continue to take it too.  He's found out a little diferently and for awhile was better but things are going South again.  Actually, it just makes me sad to think of spending the rest of my life with someone I'm not close to emotionally but I don't want to upset D2 or our son (H is really good with our son, who is special needs) by getting separated or a divorce. 
His reason for treating me badly in front of his family, he says now, is because we weren't being intimate very often and he was frustrated so that was how he punished me.  Oh yeah, like that's really gonna promote intimacy

Everything D1 does or has done for years and years he ascribes a sinister motive to.  He's gone through saying she must be a lesbian because she likes to spend so much time with her friends (she's not ) to finding an excuse to take away her house key (she's away at college) because he doesn't trust that she wouldn't steal from us.  At times he sways me into these thinking modes but then I'll see her and realize that it's not true.  She's never stolen a thing in her life, never.  I think the main problem is that D1 and H are so much alike, she isn't gonna suck up to him or coddle him and I guess he needs that adoration and when he doesn't get it he pushes her away  and ascribes bad behaviours to her.  He's always down her, ALWAYS!!! Always has been.  She has been hard to deal with at times, but I believe that if her dad had treated her better and been more understanding and had allowed me to be more supportive of her that alot of it could have gone differently.  When she was little and he disciplined her she would come to me for a hug and he'd get mad at me for hugging her saying that I was "undermining his authority"    I wasn't undermining him, I wasn't saying he was wrong, I was comforting her but he thought I should push her away.  When she began to avoid him he accused me of "turning her against him" but I wasn't.  I was trying to make peace and keep peace and smooth all the ruffled feathers because I wanted a loving happy family.  He's never seen how his actions affect us. 

Sometimes I've wondered if he's actually jealous of D1 because I've always loved her so much and until she went away to college I was closer to her than to him.  Course he did nothing to bring me closer to him but he doesn't see that. 

When D2 is telling about her day, H gets all impatient and tells her he doesn't want to hear "about that crap"  (she's middle school and it's all about girl drama) and I tell him that her day is important to her and that he needs to listen because it lets her know that he values her.  But still he has little tolerance.  Also, I just realized that many, many times at the dinner table we've been talking and if it isn't something he's familiar with or something he's interested in then he'll get mad and say that what we're talking about is dumb or isn't "worthy of discussion" and then he'll start talking about something he's interested in----which usually is something the kids know little to zero about.

Know the saying "can't see the forest for the trees", He's had me so confused for so long that I often can't see what's right in front of me.  I almost left him a few years ago (before my EA) but didn't want to do that to the kids. I manage to suck in my unhappiness most of the time and keep a happy face on for them. Actually, I had learned to live without love and learned how to walk on eggshells pretty well until the EA came along and awakened my soul. 

Input please?? Help??

Adrift

[Brigid]

Wow adrift, you have a lot of different dynamics going on in your household.  Had I been involved with this website or had any knowledge of nism while still living with my xh, I would probably have had a number of lightbulb moments.  But I didn't have that "luxury" so my revelations have all taken place since my separation and divorce. 

I guess the best advice I could offer is some counselling for you or you and your H to work through the relationship with your older D and how it could be made better, and also your relationship with your H.  You can have all the lightbulbs moments you like, but without some intervention and professional guidance, nothing will get any better, IMO.  You all have your established patterns of behavior and you need an outsider to evaluate that and make suggestions for change.

(((((((((adrift))))))))))))

Brigid

[adrift]

Thanks Bridge, you're probably right, but I don't think H would go to counseling and would probably think it was a waste of time and money for me to.

[Gaining Strength]

((((((((((adrift))))))))))

Most of you are thoroughly sick of hearing about our oldest D's "problems",.

I’m not and I’m not alone.  Your problems are our problems – let them out.  We don’t have to read about
It if we are not interested. But of course we care.

I remember when D1 (daughter #1) was about 5 or 6 and if H came home from work and she didn't run to hug him or greet him in some way, then he would ignore her.  My mom pointed this out to me and when I pointed out to H he said that why should he go greet her if she was going to ignore him.

This is very telling.  I think this is the epitome of N behavior.  A parent’s role is to teach a child, to demonstrate how to love and be loved and your poor D1 had a father who wouldn’t do this.  That is very tragic.

When she was little and he disciplined her she would come to me for a hug and he'd get mad at me for hugging her saying that I was "undermining his authority"

This is exactly what my father would say.  I was never allowed to be comforted.  That is really emotionally abusive.  We all need comforting when we are hurting.

When D2 is telling about her day, H gets all impatient and tells her he doesn't want to hear "about that crap"  (she's middle school and it's all about girl drama) and I tell him that her day is important to her and that he needs to listen because it lets her know that he values her.  But still he has little tolerance.

I’m so glad you are there for her.  My father had absolutely no tolerance for “girl stuff” so I tried very hard to  be anything but girlish and then I could never understand how the flirty feminine girls were so successful. – Go figure. Keep taking up for her but you may as well do it where he doesn’t hear you. – keep the peace has a lot to be said in this situation.

I am so sorry for what you and your family have lived with.  It really makes my heart ache.  I am so glad you are seeing it now for what it is.  Some one said the other day that there is little reason to confront Ns and I agree.  But you can help overcome the damage with your children when he is not around or is out of earshot. 

I am sorry that you not only don’t have support but have someone who is working against you.  It really makes my heart ache to hear this.  I hope you have a nice birthday with your cousins.  I do have one concern about your plan making.  Did you ask your husband to take a day off for your birthday and then wait until he made arrangements to do so to tell him you had other plans?  I might have misunderstood,  because that sounds like a set up, like HE couldn’t win for losing?  Whatever happened there, if you are going to stay for the children then you must find a way to make peace for yourself and one way to do that is to avoid confrontations – that doesn’t mean you have to give up your values – to the contrary but in my experience nothing is gained by confronting an N.

My heart is with you and D1. – your friend – Gaining Strength

[chris2]

from an early age her dad kinda turned on her.  He would always manipulate the situation to make it out to be her fault, and I went along with him sometimes just to help preserve some peace.

I had to stuff my feelings and smile and put up with his barbs or grumpiness just to keep some peace.

Actually, it just makes me sad to think of spending the rest of my life with someone I'm not close to emotionally but I don't want to upset D2 or our son

When she began to avoid him he accused me of "turning her against him" but I wasn't.  I was trying to make peace and keep peace and smooth all the ruffled feathers because I wanted a loving happy family.

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

I see very little reason to try and get your husband to go to therapy because narcissists have little incentive to work at therapy. They're selfish and they're getting their way. They have it good. What's more, I've observed that narcissists change when impelled by an immediate threat to their own interests, but if the threat is not repeated, they change back.

You on the other hand, can change. You can stop valuing the peace you've never had and your fantasy of a loving happy family that has never existed over the well-being of your own children. Going along with someone who emotionally abuses a child because you hate confrontation is the epitome of betrayal. My mother was a monster but at least my dad stood up for me. I'd hate to think how my life would have turned out if he'd gone along with her vicious belittling because he cared more about keeping the peace than about me. I haven't read your comments about your problems with your daughter, but I honestly can't imagine how you could have anything but. You created a pattern of sacrificing her to the monster to save yourself early on, disguising it as "keeping the peace." I would expect that your daughter is pretty close to infinitely angry with you. I would expect that one of these days your husband is going to demean her one last time, and she will look at you, and you will gaze at her appealingly, hoping that she won't say anything to break the peace, and she will turn and walk out of your lives forever. I would expect that D2 will do the same one of these days if you don't stand up for her to your husband.

If you aren't in therapy to learn to stand up to your husband, now would be a good time to start. If you haven't confessed your betrayal to your daughter, apologized to her, and told her that you will defend her to your husband every single time he mistreats her from now on, now would be a good time to do that. Don't think she'll hate you for confessing that you failed her. She was there. She knows what happened. Things can only get better.

Every world leader who ever mattered has said something along the lines of never placate a bully. Narcissists are ultimately bullies. They respect only strength. Your husband married you because he knew you were someone who didn't like to break the peace. He has a lot to lose if you walk away. Stand up and take that power.

I realize that my words are harsh, but the future you are walking towards is harsher. Being a good person does not just mean not doing anything actively evil. It means opposing evil as well even at a cost to yourself,  because the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. You're lucky. You just need more effective communication techniques, which a good therapist can easily teach you. "Emotional Blackmail" by Susan Forward is also excellent.

Good luck and be strong.

Chris2

[Hopalong]

don't think H would go to counseling and would probably think it was a waste of time and money for me to

(((((((((((((Adrift)))))))))))))))

I think going to counseling for yourself, for now, would be:
--an outstanding step and actually showing yourself you're worthy of caring attention and help
--a great way to learn how you can show your daughter the same

I am a little conflicted about your story. I kept the peace for a while until my ex was gratituously cruel to my D when she was just a little girl, in a similar way. That cracked it for me.

Lastly, remember you can't read our minds so noooooooooooo, you can't say, "you all are sick of hearing about..." I'm not tired of your story at all. And my heart is with you and your D and I do hope you go get counseling. Imagine one hour each week when you can sit in a serene space, share your heart, and get insight that is aimed at strengthening and supporting you for your own life and your d's.

Not just here, but also in 3-D, with all the details known!

hugs,
Hops

[adrift]

Did you ask your husband to take a day off for your birthday and then wait until he made arrangements to do so to tell him you had other plans?  I might have misunderstood,  because that sounds like a set up, like HE couldn’t win for losing?

I probably didn't explain the timeline very well.  I had already made the plans with my cousins (and he was aware of the plans) before he said he guessed he could switch that day with another worker and go with us if I wanted him  to or either just he and I go out.  I told him that was o.k., I'd just stick with the plans already made and he was fine with that. 

Chris:

  Your words are honest and you mean well. Thank you and thanks also thanks for pointing out how many times I mentioned "keeping the peace"---I didn't realize it at all. When I wrote the following:

from an early age her dad kinda turned on her.  He would always manipulate the situation to make it out to be her fault, and I went along with him sometimes just to help preserve some peace.

The only saving grace word in there is "sometimes", but I'm not proud of it at all.  In my defense, if I may have one, there have been many times that I've been so confused that I haven't known who was right anymore.  There have been many, many more times that H and I had major battles because I wouldn't give in to him and  his bullying of her. I had no one to talk to.  If I had left H my parents would have had a fit until I went back to him and I had no way to support myself at that time.  I continued to comfort her every time she came to me, regardless of how he ranted about it.  I continued to be in her corner and be her cheerleader, although there have been times I've faltered and let her down.  I've apologized to her in the past for my mistakes and she has graciously accepted my apologies.  I take my responsibilities of motherhood very seriously and have tried very, very hard to be a good, loving, supportive mother.  D2 loves her dad regardless of his actions, she's just a loving child. She and I have a very close relationship and I take up for her when necessary but H has never been as hard on her as he has on D1 and that's probably because D2 is so affectionate and forgiving whereas D1 is a more distant type of person. 

Chris wrote:

Going along with someone who emotionally abuses a child because you hate confrontation is the epitome of betrayal. My mother was a monster but at least my dad stood up for me. I'd hate to think how my life would have turned out if he'd gone along with her vicious belittling because he cared more about keeping the peace than about me.

  You're very lucky.  No one took up for me when I was a kid so I know all about betrayal.  And I don't hate confrontation, I keep the peace for the sake of my kids which means that I put up with his grumpiness, which I'm around much more than they are due to his work schedule, I stuff my feelings way more than I want and I stay with him because D2 and S (son) are quite happy and breaking up this family isn't going to help anything.  I stood up to him today over D1's car issue (which thankfully she knows nothing about his accusations towards her) and continue to support her emotionally.  I failed her in the past, but I've apologized and have been doing much better.

[Gaining Strength]

I probably didn't explain the timeline very well.  I had already made the plans with my cousins (and he was aware of the plans) before he said he guessed he could switch that day with another worker and go with us if I wanted him  to or either just he and I go out.  I told him that was o.k., I'd just stick with the plans already made and he was fine with that.

No one took up for me when I was a kid so I know all about betrayal.

Me too Adrift.  This makes life more difficult than anyone can possible know.  My heart aches for you in your struggles. 

Good for you Adrift.  ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((BIG HUG))))))))))))))))))))

GS

[penelope]

wow adrift.

This sounds so much like my family - I'm shocked.  Your H sounds very Nish.  I'm sorry.  It is so confusing, but hopefully putting it here in black and white has helped you. 

Please know that I feel your pain so deeply and am very sad for you.

bean

[gratitude28]

((((((((((((((((((adrift)))))))))))))))

Your H sounds like my dad some. I don't consider my dad an N, but he is always quick to think that things are somehow a manipulation. I felt like I was slapped in the face just reading your letter. Adrift, I always wondered about the parenting in the house. I am leery of believing that a child becomes angry all by herself. It sounds like your daughter has been a bit voiceless too.

Adrift, remember, you can't change the past. But you CAN change the future.

Sending love to all of you.
Beth

[adrift]

THanks Beth.  I think growing up in a maladjusted home has blinded me somewhat to H's manipulative, Nish ways. No doubt both my parents had strong N tendencies and maybe were N's, I don't know.  It's all so confusing.  I'm not trying to make an excuse for myself because I am an adult and am responsible for my actions and especially for protecting my kids.  You hit the nail on the head when you said

always quick to think that things are somehow a manipulation

--it just seems like I"m actually seeing it more clearly now for what it is.Yeah, I think I need to go talk to someone who can help me see things clearly. 

Thanks guys, for everything. 

((((((((((((((((((adrift)))))))))))))))

Your H sounds like my dad some. I don't consider my dad an N, but he is always quick to think that things are somehow a manipulation. I felt like I was slapped in the face just reading your letter. Adrift, I always wondered about the parenting in the house. I am leery of believing that a child becomes angry all by herself. It sounds like your daughter has been a bit voiceless too.

Adrift, remember, you can't change the past. But you CAN change the future.

Sending love to all of you.
Beth

[penelope]

One good litmus test is to ask your daughter:  do you think I care about protecting you?

You might be surprised at the response.  If she says "no" how will you respond?

I know I did not feel this, growing up in an N household.  I felt I had to protect myself.  Many behavior problems in me resulted due to that.

hugs adrift, you are taking the right steps, asking the right questions.

bean

[adrift]

Good question, I'll ask her.  Here's part of an e-mail I got from her today

,,,,, Don't worry about the past, what's really important is the present and the future. Thank you for being so supportive of me, I really appreciate it. I know that there have been many, many times when I have let you down and I'm really sorry.  I really wish I could come home more too, It's just really hard with all of my h/w and work schedule... I really enjoy the time I get to spend with ya'll especially now, because we don't all fight when I'm home now and that's really nice )  You've been a wonderful mom to me and I truly appreciate everything that you've done for me, I realize now how many personal sacrifices you made so that me, and (DD2) and (DS) could have such a good home life and childhood, Now that I'm in college I meet people that started doing mature things at a very young age and it made me realize how everything that you did to protect my innocene for so long really makes me totally different from them, in a very good way. And I want to thank you for that!!! I love you!!! and yes my car is working fine today )

WAnted to share this with y'all as it is so lovely to me.

[gratitude28]

What an awesome letter!!! How sweet!! You guys will do fine!!!!! Love conquers all!!!!!!
Love, Beth