Author Topic: I don't get it......  (Read 3804 times)

dragonsamm

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I don't get it......
« on: November 10, 2006, 12:07:52 AM »
Hey Guys
I truly don't mean to be insensitive, and I certainly admit I may be totally ignorant about this, but I have a question about something i don't understand.

I read a lot of stuff in these threads about people being repeatedly hurt and manipulated by people they have labeled Narcissists.  People who are either family, "friends", significant-others, etc.  The question is Why do you allow yourself to be a part of the life of someone who does not honor your basic human dignity??? 
Now, I don't know the clinical definition of Narcissism, but I have parents with issues similar to a lot I've heard in here.  You know, I learned a LONG time ago to not look for any emotonal support from these people.  I go so far as to avoid contact with people who treat me in ways i don't like to be treated.  If that means not having a "normal" relatonship with a sibling, a parent, an acquaintance, so be it.   Why would anyone repeatedly subject themselves to bad treatment once they know that the other person is not going to change (and that shouldn't take more than a few incidents to realize).

Don't get me wrong.  I DO understand dependency, co-dependency, self-abasement, lack of personal boundaries.  I have been there in many ways.  I understand growing up feeling unimportant, invisible, and worse.  I understand how that affects one's self-esteem.  I struggle with that myself.  But as an adult, to walk away from an encounter with an abuser (whatever label you give them), feeling less than human in their eyes, and NOT recognize that the issue is with them, and you don't ever have to deal with it again, ......well, what am I missing here???

I am listening......

~dragonsamm~

pennyplant

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2006, 01:57:49 AM »
I think with me it has been a matter of not recognizing certain patterns and red flags for what they were.  So, I would get kind of "reeled in" and "bond" with these people.  When I did recognize that they had something wrong with them, I stayed because I had been taught to be overly responsibly.  So, I thought I could  and should "help" them to change, improve or whatever.  So, part of my journey has been just learning to recognize where I leave off and others begin and recognizing red flags for what they really are.  The next part of my journey is learning to accept just being with myself since I was also always afraid to be lonely.

I have often been able to recognize red flag behaviors in other people's relationships, though, and feel a sense of injustice about that.  My mother for instance, was "reeled in" by her boyfriend and I saw very clearly that he wasn't good for her or playing fair.  But she didn't see it.  And I probably wouldn't have seen it if it had been my relationship.  But I was taught all my life that my needs didn't matter.  That was just a given.  So, why would I even apply my "seeing" ability to myself?  I was exempt from the rules of good treatment in relationships.

Since coming here I have made great progress in these areas.

Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

WRITE

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2006, 08:16:02 AM »
as an adult, to walk away from an encounter with an abuser (whatever label you give them), feeling less than human in their eyes, and NOT recognize that the issue is with them, and you don't ever have to deal with it again, ......well, what am I missing here???

Interesting question D/S!

Well I'm a Christian for a start, so whilst that doesn't mean I have to accept abuse on one level it does make me feel I have a responsibility to help others, to be a Good Samaritan, and to 'turn the other cheek'. I do it at a distance, but I do forgive and I do give people chances and I can give love even when there will be no reciprocity or appreciation from that person; and it has been the love which has made the difference to some of the difficult people. Now I see it as G_d loves me so I can love them...I can't control their behaviour but sometimes I can influence it or G_d can, and I can control mine ( as much as a Bipolar can say that! )

I have a 10 year old son with my ex- I feel I can't walk away if I wanted to, and by being kind and patient and unwavering I think I have acheived more than confontation would have. We'd be slogging it out in court now to no avail if I hadn't taken a step backwards and said ok- you take what you need. Ex put himself in therapy when he finally saw how out of touch and cold he is; that has to be better for my son than the denial and anger we were getting before ( now it's more denial and geniality! )

Many people are reluctant to give up their families, D/S, and are willing to tolerate the painful encounters with the Ns to maintain some contact with the rest; because Ns so often want to be the centre of things and their good qualities mean some people don't see their bad, and others are drawn to their charming self, cutting out the N can mean cutting out the whole family or friendship network.

It's also given me a strong insight into Nism, to keep my ex in my life, and I no longer find it frightening when I encounter lesser versions in daily life; I know that people's bluster and manipulation is a sign of their weaknesses not their strength. It's taken the power out of the situation to be abused again to see through aggresssive behaviours and know it's nothing I did which caused them ( the message of my family was very much- it's all your fault; I was the 'scapegoat' )

In The Verbally Abusive Relationship Patricia Evans says if you are going to be around an abuser let nothing go- challenge everything. I'm sure it makes me jolly company to be around ( not! ) but that's what I've done with ex- broken record on the behaviours which affect our son. Course it's meant I've had to get in line my unacceptable behaviours too, so as not to be unreasonable!

And also there has to be a cut-off point with the level of abuse- some psycopaths are so dangerous they will destroy or even kill others and they have few or no redeeming personality characteristics to hold them back or compensate for being in a relationship with them. Some people should have 'run' tatooed on their foreheads- and if we ask the right questions and pay attention when we first meet they usually have as PP said 'red flags' all over them.

Children whose feelings are neglected or negated respond by neglecting their own emotional needs.

absolutely. And in my working class UK culture I saw NO positive role models growing up for happy marriage or positive parenting. I saw other people having more fun than us or more love in their families. But it was a culture of hitting, shouting, blaming, lack of affection, stulted ambitions, low self-worth and high self-consciousness. Loads of heavy drinking, loads of shame. No joy, no sponteneity.

When I went back last year I saw just how 'raw' the emotions were in my home town, how much the whole culture contributed to stultifying self-development and happiness and mental wellbeing.

And how resistant that setting is to change and growth. Telling people I've been in therapy elicited not curiosity or empathy but suspicion and dismissiveness!

When someone tries to change they provoke the response of their immediate family, their friendship network, even their whole culture- and we are programmed to be social inter-dependent beings and sensitive to the responses of others.

I understand fully why it's hard to detach, and isn't it something stuns us about the Ns- how they can flip their attachment switch on and off at will?

For most people it's a process of detachment and setting greater boundaries, and only cutting out someone who is too toxic for there to be any hopeful relationship outcome.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2006, 08:18:58 AM by WRITE »

penelope

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2006, 08:57:55 AM »
hi dragonsamm,

I have the ability for the first time in my life to see the abuse in my family of origin, and I did walk away.  It was only slightly less painful than staying.

But, I think I'm healing slowly everyday.  Healing for me means the pain is subsiding slowly, since I don't let myself be re-traumatized, by putting myself back in the abusive situation repeatedly.

hugs,
bean

Stormchild

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2006, 09:27:54 AM »
Dragon, abusers often play nice one minute and slam you the next.

A lot of people will close their eyes to the slamming and focus on the nice,
partly because we have a bias towards 'positive thinking' in our culture that puts a stigma on thinking otherwise,
partly because of the 'amnesia for abuse' thing,
partly because we may believe we are obligated to endure abuse for various reasons,
and partly because the slamming is scary.

It's frightening to think that someone who is being so sweet to us one minute can be so savage to us the next, and really mean that savagery.

So we convince ourselves that the sweet stuff is the real person and the slammer is 'just a mood', 'just a phase', 'just the alcohol talking'. But with an abuser, it is always the other way around. The slammer is what's real, and the sweet stuff is just bait.

Hunters may put out salt licks or other forms of bait to lure an animal within range of their blind. Fishermen bait their hooks. They do this because it makes it easier to get dinner on the table.

Abusers are hunters and fishers too, but they hunt and fish people and psyches, and they're all poaching. The unwary and unprepared, the innocent and unsuspecting, end up as lunch. Possibly for years; sometimes for a lifetime.
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

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dragonsamm

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2006, 12:06:38 AM »

Thanks for the responses

I understand better now.  I guess I've come a lot farther than I had realized.  My history of being in abusive relationships was re-awakened while reading these posts.  Growing up with a raging father and a cold,emotionally unresponsive mother (who was also being abused by this man), I learned early to go into my head instead of feel the fear and confusion that were presented to me everyday.  My salvation came in the form of a Catholic Priest counseling me in High School, showing me that my intelligence could, indeed, save me from the terror.  What I did not learn at the time was how to re-incorporate my feelings into my rational life, and I was vulnerable to emotionally abusive and/or unresponsive relationships.  My first husband was the unresponsive type after we'd married. He was all about me before the wedding.  I lived with that for 15 years because he could so easily fool me into believing he DID indeed understand my needs and was going to start giving me what I needed just as soon as.....(fill in the blank).  15 years later i finally realized it was NEVER going to happen and walked out.  Every relationship since then has been either emotionally abusive or emotionally unresponsive.    So I give up on men.  I don't know how to pick the "right" one, obviously, no one that i would ideally choose would ever begin to understand and fill my needs, so why bother looking?   
BTW:  Cognitively, I know that statement is skewed, but I don't know what to do to change myself so I simply stop expecting to find anyone for me.

thanks again for all the responses.  I feel your pain in the situations you feel you can't walk away from.  Take good care of you, even if nobody else will.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ALL OF YOU ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

~dragonsamm~


Gaining Strength

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2006, 11:55:01 AM »
Keep working and working and then suddenly just as you are convinced that you are simply going to maintain some small hole opens and a smattering of light streams though and you progress a little further.  This community then encourages and supports each other.  We hold each other up when we feel we can go no further.  We offer support until we find the strength to pick up and try again to push forward.  That is what family ideally  but seldom does. 

I am thankful to be here and feel that finding it was nothing short of a miracle given to encourage me and keep me pushing forward.  As I walked up the stairs to bed last night I thought of you all by name and gave thanks for you and your friendship.

your friend - Gaining Strength

moonlight52

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2006, 03:17:19 PM »
Keep working and working and then suddenly just as you are convinced that you are simply going to maintain some small hole opens and a smattering of light streams though and you progress a little further.

Balance and strength these I am getting a handle on.
I no longer blame and  living in the past and also have come to a place were I understand the gifts within the problem.
Although the gifts are so easily understood from my mom .My father's have been more difficult.
 
I have come not to blame and deeply respect the gifts from him  as teacher .
I am hoping for other teachers that have to do with my spiritual path.
But I am not blaming. That is a place to get stuck for me again.If my father could understand that would be good but not NECESSARY to me.

Last night I experienced deep love and knowledge of what I have learn from my parents.
From my Father: though this fire I am Strong.Strong enough to really love him.
Whether he ever knows this or understands this I do I do not know, and my side of the street is clean .

Thur fire from my father and through deep clear blue waters from my mom.
Thur fire and water I have come.and now my path goes on.

well I do not know what I am babbling about love and more to all

moon

Gaining Strength

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2006, 04:07:33 PM »
Moonlilght
your expression is so lovely.  I am thankful that I have gotten through the rage to sadness and compassion for my parents and theirs.
If I am able to extend it to them then I should be able to extend it to myself.  I'm next on my list for compassion and caring.

I love what you have written here.  I am able to love my father.  I love him as the adorable chilid he was - so full of life and intelligence and
the desire to please and be pleased, to see good in others and make friends and be a friend.  It is a true tradgedy that his life was in the traditionaly s
sense "wasted" by endless unkindnesses from austere unloving broken parents.  I love the child who was my father and the man he wanted to be.  That was the good life.  And now I must find my path out of this labyrinth of generaltional brokeness in order to give my son hope for a full life.  I am so thankful today
that I am beginning to be able to grab hold of my will and direct it beyond the compounded fears.  I never thought I would see the day and if it is only one then I will learn to build on the memory of it to make it two.

moonlight52

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2006, 04:30:00 PM »
 GS Your love and great mind melts any discomfort away .

Your insights have helped me soooooooooo  much

We are quite a group humbly I say
This is a place of great love understanding and love

The hue-man expressions here are so very dear...............

so much more love to you and then more

Gaining Strength

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2006, 05:41:44 PM »
We are quite a group, I humbly reply.
And I am giving thanks every day. - GS

Hopalong

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2006, 05:43:24 PM »
Ditto ditto! Echo echo!

Smacking my flippers together and barking!!!

(((((((((((((Moon, GS, Jac)))))))))))))

Gracious sisters.

xxoo,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

GAP

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2006, 07:59:56 AM »
Dragon,

For some of us that have been abused as a child we are fortunate enough to marry people who are not abusive.  I thought I was marrying a terrific man.  Within a few weeks of being married I remember thinking ...."I thought once I got away from my mother I would never be treated this way again."  I truly thought I was must be soooo annoying to love that you had to treat me abusively.  I thought I had misjudged the man I married.  I was too afraid to tell anyone of the abuse, it was embarrassing.  Then there were the days when he would tell me I was the love of his life, the best thing that ever happened to him.  His mother would tell me she never thought he would meet anyone that could understand him.  I got pregnant shortly after we got married...I gave up my career and stayed home.

Just before delivering my 2nd baby the abuse got terrible....I ran out of the apartment with my baby and went to my parents.  I was 26.  I poured my heart out, told them of my fear and the abuse.  They told me to return and figure it out.  They told me maybe if I acted differently he would behave better. He worked alot, I had babies and raised them.  We all walked on eggshells when he was around. The rages and outburst were unpredictable.  When I tried to discuss the abuse he told me to quit watching Oprah, when I talked to his brother about it he said that all executives treated their wifes poorly since they were under alot of stress.  His mother talked in code about the behavior and told me how special I was that I could "handle" he son. 

There were goodtimes and bad times.  I let him do whatever he wanted to, travel whenever he wanted to, go out when ever he wanted to....I happly took care of the kids and built a life for myself volunteering and raising kids.  I made him look good and our life look perfect.  The eggshells hurt.  Eventually I dragged him to a therapist...he complained the socks weren't lined up in the drawer properly and sometimes I would not pick up the dry cleaning on the same day I dropped it off.  I would try to talk about the abuse, we accomplished nothing.  The therapist finally words were don't leave until you know you have done everything you possibly can to make the man happy.

More years a couple more kids...financial success....more drinking....more arrogance.  My "what the hell am I doing moment" came when I went overseas with him on a trip with a female business associate.  The man I thought I had married was on the trip.  Kind, nice, considerate....I had no idea what narcissism was at the time but I knew this behavior was not for me but to impress her.   I remember sitting up late at night weeping saying I'm so thrilled you are acting like the man I thought I married but I realize you are not doing it for me but rather for her.  It was then and only then, 16 years into the marriage that I realized I wasn't crazy, I had been tricked by my husband, I thought I had married a different man.

I went home, sought therapy and began the journey to recovery.  It took 4 more years before I began the divorce processes.  I tried every resource I could to try and fix the problem.  The situation and abuse would get better for a short period of time then much worse.  I didn't start reading about narcissism until I was separated...for me the concept has been difficult to grasp and believe...but I get it know.  I have had to work hard at not just divorcing my husband but also setting boundaries with my family members and emotionally detaching from the abusive one.

Because of my genetic nature my reaction to growing up in an abusive household was to accept the abuse and take responsibility for others bad behavior...the scapegoat...others react differently depending on their genetic make up...some become abusers...others shut down emotionally...but everyone pays a price.  It is how you deal with it when you start to understand what is going on that matters.  Without therapy or an awakening you cannot possibly live life to the fullest and you more then likely passed the legacy on for one more generation.

Hopalong

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2006, 02:29:12 PM »
Oh, Gap:

Your parents' betrayal must have left you feeling so terribly alone, that you gave in and gave those years to him. I am so sorry.

But I'm so glad you have your children and have stepped into your own life at last.

Never doubt yourself.
You have lived through fire and you are forged strong.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Dazed1

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Re: I don't get it......
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2006, 06:41:56 PM »
Dear GAP,

For me, your powerful story demonstrates how a person with N/dysfunctional parents can wind up with an N/dysfunctional spouse/partner.

I really relate to your parents telling you to go back to your NH and behave differently!!!  This happened to me as well.  Since I have learned about Nism, I now shudder when I think that I asked my N mother for advise on how to deal with my N boyfriends' abusive behaviors.  My N mother would ask me "what did you do to make him act that way?"  I always felt that it was wrong that my mother immediately assumed that I was at fault, but  I could not put my finger on it.  Now I see that my mother was an N.

Yes, I echo Hops' sentiment about your parents betraying you and I too am sorry that they did this to you.

I relate to so much in your story, like the lack of boundaries and growing up in an abusive houshold where you had to "accept the abuse and take responsibility for others bad behavior".  Me too.

Thank you so much for sharing your story.  I wish you strength and healing

Dazed