hypersensitivity- thanks again for your indulgence

[pandora]

Hi guys-

This may seem like sort of a trivial message, maybe I m hypersensitive. But I wanted perspective on a few things that caught my attention this morning.

First, before we got up, my husband was getting close to me in bed and holding me. I had to get up so I could make it in time to a work meeting, so I said "I need to be in by 8", at which point he rolled over abruptly, kind of pushing me away, and said "You always have a meeting, that's your life, etc."

Then in the kitchen, I had taken the dishes he left in the sink last night and put them in the dishwasher, but hadn't turned it on yet. He came in and seemed very frustrated that I hadn't started running it, or done it the night before, and expressed frustration at his efforts to "train" me. (I did point out that he could have easily done it himself).

Then he had made himself a smoothie drink - some disgusting green crap - and asked me to taste it. I did, and told him that I didn't really like it. He said he was glad I didn't like it because I wouldn't "compete" with him for using it. (it is a very pricy drink mix) He has often seemed to hoard groceries and stuff that he brings into the house, and to think I shouldn't have them, but of course has no problem eating what I bring home. He also seems to think that I "compete" with him in other situations, especially social ones.

Then he went on a 5 minute mini-tirade about "christian crap" and religious guilt - have no idea where that came from. I was raised christian but am not particularly observant. However, my parents are quite religious- though certainly not the hellfire and damnation type.

I feel like my eyes have recently been opened as to what he is really like, and that is probably why I am paying such close attention to small incidences like this. I apologize if this is too trivial - I realize that many of you are struggling with much larger issues.

And thank you all for feedback to my previous posts. I am realizing that I can't (and don't really even want to try) to change him or anyone else - I just want to get clarity and understanding so that I can make the best choices for myself.

Peace!

[Gingerpeach]

Pandora,

It is not trivial at all.  Because when these "trivial" incidences are strung together and added up you find that you are at the receiving end of a constant barrage of criticism and abuse.  This wreaks havoc on your self esteem, probably evokes an anxiety response in your body (very unhealthy when it happens too often) and is just plain unpleasant.  Who, when offered the choice, would choose this?

Here's the Game Show Scenario:   "Behind Door Number 1 you  will have a pleasant relationship with  honesty, respect,  intimacy, a sharing of household chores and a willingness to resolve differences calmly.  Or......behind Door Number 2 you will get someone who will constantly criticize you, blame you for everything that could possibly go wrong,  never understand what you are feeling, and expect you to cater to his needs and ignore your own."   The choice is yours.......

The problem with Ns is that they do not initially present with their true natures. If it had been like the Game Show scenario, I'd find it hard to believe that you or I would have chosen Door #2.  

So, no it is not trivial at all.

[seeker]

Hello Pandora,

I totally agree with Gingerpeach that this is not trivial at all.  You have just described the subtle pettiness of living with an N.  Chinese water torture.  Drop by drop they erode your self confidence.  And Jacmac is right on point about win/lose. So childish.  I have found books about negotiation and win/win to help communication at work and at home.

As for the religious rant, you can ignore it.  But if you want/need a response, you can point out that most religious traditions (Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, etc) express some form of the Golden Rule.  It is how we all learn to (dramatic pause here) live with others!   If he has a problem with it, it can take it up with God.  Whoops, I forgot. Ns are God!!!  

Peace, Seeker

[Anonymous]

Your husband is like a child who can't tolerate frustration. When you separated from him in bed, to go to work, he felt controlled, rejected, and criticized. That wasn't your intention but that's what happened to him emotionally (a childlike reaction). So he went into a virtual orgy of controlling behaviors, blame, and wierd guilt (the religious ranting). I think you can assume that most of his criticisms toward you are really a reflection of his own self-hate. However he isn't aware of feeling that way, and you can't make him aware of it. Unfortunately when someone is really childish they resist any awareness. Only a therapist might get through to him.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Pandora

Patricia Evans The Verbally Abusive Relationship is a great book for breaking down these kind of transactions.
He sounds like a 'reality one' male to me.

[pandora]

thank you guys for your comments and support.  

I feel like my marriage is in the ICU and failing fast.  We had another session with our therapist this afternoon, and they just get more and more bizarre.  What can you say when someone tells you point-blank that their main goal is their own "path" and "personal growth" and that issues in the marriage are not their priority.  In front of the marriage counselor, where you supposed focus should be on your marriage.

I actually worked up the nerve to tell him that I thought it might be wise to approach his upcoming trip (2 months) as a kind of trial separation, for us to think about whether to stay married and how best to end it if it comes to that.  His response seemed so strange to me - no emotion, no expression of regret or sadness that I could see (wouldn't you expect that even if you thought it was best that the marriage end?)- although I had tears running down my face.  He said that he could see that I had withdrawn from him over the past few weeks -
and that he had been thinking about getting out for the last 2 years.

Then he launched into some sort of weird monolog about how we both should prioritize our own "path", how relationships were secondary, and then how maybe we aren't compatible.  He always seems to think the problems are caused by my not doing enough, my commitment to my career, etc.

But then when I said that perhaps we should think about what the kindest and least damaging way to end it would be (words I never imagined I would ever say about my marriage) - he said I was being premature.  If he wants out, and has for so long, why torment me?  And if he wants to stay, why can't he say "no, I love you and want to work it out"?

I feel very hopeless about it.  It's very sad.  Thanks again for letting me vent.  I know a lot of you have probably been where I am now.  

Pandora

[lynn]

Hi pandora,

In response to your original post, no this is not trivial.  

For me, thinking that it was "trivial" made me stay in my relationship much too long.  The comments made by my N husband were constant, yet subtle and insidious.  Over and over, I would find myself reflecting on my own behavior trying to find the fault that he had seen.

Instead, I think that it is very important to begin to see your husband's actions and words for what they are.   My guess is that as your awareness increases.... you will find that his insults happen even more often than you originally thought.   (does that make sense?)

I went to marriage counseling also.  It never felt productive.  He either made himself appear charming or he was stoic and made bizzare comments.... kind of like what you describe.... really unrelated and unconnected to the conversation at hand.

I would walk out in frustration.  I know now, that the frustration is another sign.  A wake-up call.  

My input to you is to be aware of these " trivial" incidents.  How often do they happen?  How much does he not-care when he makes the comments?
You have the power to make choices.  

Warmly,  lynn

[seeker]

Hi Pandora,

First, a hug.    All of this is so fresh and raw and you need lots of TLC.

Second, what you describe here of your husband's responses is what I would call a lot of shame-dumping.  Your husband knows that the mess you both are standing in is shameful.  So he's going to make sure he gets out with the least amount of it stuck on him.  Never mind how it got there...it's all going to fall on you.  Hopefully your therapist whom you are seeing alone can help you sidestep when he starts dumping.  

As for the "premature" remark, I see that as either a way to keep you hooked, or a stall for time for when he can make his own move to do the leaving or both, to make it hurt you the most because in an N's mind, the non-N deserves it for making him look at this mess.  I know this sounds harsh, but I went back and reread your previous thread of what this guy has done.  Sheesh!  Don't take on the shame-dumping.  And like Lynn says, the more you recognize it, the more your response will change and the more he will do it to get you back in the place where he controlled you and you were more predictable to him.  He talks the Toxic!  

Again, big hug. I'm glad you will be getting a long break soon.  Seeker.

[Karin]

I was so pleased to read this thread this morning because I have been feeling extremely stressed out over the last few days/weeks as I try to process the bizarre behaviour of my N over settlement issues. Bizarre was the word I've been repeating to myself. He seems to be unable to understand what settlement even means. He's got his own meaning of it. Thanks for letting me know that I'm not alone again.
I laughed as I read about the 'dishwasher incident', that's the sort of thing my husband would do. He once followed me into the laundry and told me how to do the washing! I'd been keeping his clothes clean for him for 15 years at that stage. Bizarre.  
That competition thing has always been there too, I could never understand why he felt that he had to be better than me, weren't we supposed to be a united couple? I figured out eventually that it wasn't about him being better, it was about him putting me down. Slight difference.
Good luck Pandora, you're in for the roller-coaster ride. I wish I'd missed the House of Horrors, but the Hall of Mirrors had some funny moments.
Thanks all.

[Anonymous]

What can you say when someone tells you point-blank that their main goal is their own "path" and "personal growth" and that issues in the marriage are not their priority.  In front of the marriage counselor, where you supposed focus should be on your marriage.

What did the therapist say to this?
 

He said that he could see that I had withdrawn from him over the past few weeks - and that he had been thinking about getting out for the last 2 years.

I think he's terrified and trying to act blase to cover it up.

 

Then he launched into some sort of weird monolog about how we both should prioritize our own "path", how relationships were secondary, and then how maybe we aren't compatible.

What did the therapist say to this?

But then when I said that perhaps we should think about what the kindest and least damaging way to end it would be (words I never imagined I would ever say about my marriage) - he said I was being premature.  If he wants out, and has for so long, why torment me?  And if he wants to stay, why can't he say "no, I love you and want to work it out"?

I bet he's extremely dependent on you. And he is too terrified of closeness and dependency to admit he loves anyone.

bunny

[pandora]

The therapist was present for the first part of the conversation.  He is trying to get my husband to consider the effect that his words might have on my feelings.  I don't know if he is getting through.   Sometimes I actually think the therapy has made our problems worse because it gives my husband an excuse to get on my case for "poor communication".

The rest of the conversation, about using this trip as a separation, etc. was just me and him after the session.  

Even though I knew it would wear me out emotionally, I made more efforts last night to discuss it after I got home.  I told him maybe he was right, we weren't compatible, neither one of us is happy now, etc.  There is no way for me to address the hurt I still feel over his affair or sexual humiliation without being accused of clinging to victimhood and holding a grudge - thus there is no way to fully resolve and heal the relationship.  

He says he is working so hard on his own personal growth, but that he doesn't see any effort from me, and that he doesn't care about the outcome because he knows he will be a better person with or without me.  He talks all the time about understanding, love, patience, and compassion, but it does not show in his attitude toward me.  He seems to blame the lack of happiness in our marriage on me not doing enough, and minimizes the effects of his actions.   His attitude toward me is so cold.  

WHY can't he turn to me and love me?  I've truly tried to love him to the best of my ability.  I have done all I can do.  I know rationally that his rejection really has NOTHING to do with me or any failure of mine, but it is so so painful.  

The therapist has told me that it is very very unlikely that he will be able to change this N trait (thought I guess he doesn't think it is severe enough to be full-blown NPD).  

I just get so confused because I do remember times, even in the past year, that I felt that we were doing well and had a  future together, and we have always had many interests and activities in common.  I always saw he had a tendency to be self-absorbed and to blame others for his problems, but it just seems like over the past few months he has gone totally off the deep end.  And now I am so beaten up that I can barely hold on.  This feels like a very bad dream.  

I wrote more than I intended here, thanks again for your understanding.  It's been a rough couple of days.

pandora

[Anonymous]

My impression is that your husband knows he did a really bad thing that may cost his marriage. But he is so infantile that he won't take any responsibility and keeps blaming you (ridiculously) no matter what. I wish the therapist could get through to him. Hopefully the therapist helped you to feel supported during the session.

bunny

[kelly8893]

Hey!
I just wanted to comment about your post, you are on the right track, keep being razor sharp about your observations they could save you from alot of heart ache someday. With N people it is always the little things that add up to big things later.

I was in a relationship for 7 years and he was really good about the little things, I didn't even know how far I would go for his pleasure or whatever whim at the time he had cooking, until I realized one day that what I was doing was'nt normal and he wasn't normal. What made me see? The little things started to add up to big pictures of craziness like, being "trained" or "schooled" in the know. OR his behavior in social situations and then he started drinking and doing drugs alot. I do not do any of that stuff, I am a straight arrow. He was 19 when I met him and he is 27 today and I think like the books say by the time they are in their late 20's to early 30's it is evident that they have a problem.  I hope for all the best and keep watching with a clear head!

[rosencrantz]

Are you sure it wasn't called 'Mothers who Hate their Daughters and the Daughters who Love Them'???  
R

[Lizbeth]

This is exactly what my second xnh used to do to me.  I didn't wash the clothes correctly, why didn't I stack the dishes this way instead of that for drying, why was I big busted and blonde and anglo-saxon instead of short, petite and Italian (try to figure that one out, he was the one who wanted to marry me).  Constant criticism of everything I did or what I was.  I would blow up at him and tell him that if he felt he could do a better job, then he could just do it himself.  That would shut him up for awhile.

Years later he admitted to me that he felt he was so much lower than I was, he had to do these things to bring me down to where he felt he was.  Amazing he could be insightful enough to recognize this, but did not care enough about what it was doing to me to stop it.

I still can't take criticism as I should be able to.  It has and always will feel like a person attack as it started in my childhood and continued through both of my first two marriages (and my father still thinks he has the right to criticize my sister and I about whatever he feels he doesn't like about us).  My kind hubby has to deal with my freaking out when he criticizes me, even when I deserve it.

The point I'm trying to make is, what 2nd xn said about them having to bring us down to where they are.  We make them feel inferior and they can't stand that, so they have to knock us down anyway they can, and small, constant criticism will do that to a sensitive person.

Lizbeth

I was so pleased to read this thread this morning because I have been feeling extremely stressed out over the last few days/weeks as I try to process the bizarre behaviour of my N over settlement issues. Bizarre was the word I've been repeating to myself. He seems to be unable to understand what settlement even means. He's got his own meaning of it. Thanks for letting me know that I'm not alone again.
I laughed as I read about the 'dishwasher incident', that's the sort of thing my husband would do. He once followed me into the laundry and told me how to do the washing! I'd been keeping his clothes clean for him for 15 years at that stage. Bizarre.  
That competition thing has always been there too, I could never understand why he felt that he had to be better than me, weren't we supposed to be a united couple? I figured out eventually that it wasn't about him being better, it was about him putting me down. Slight difference.
Good luck Pandora, you're in for the roller-coaster ride. I wish I'd missed the House of Horrors, but the Hall of Mirrors had some funny moments.
Thanks all.