Author Topic: Fighting the guilt  (Read 2675 times)

seastorm

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Fighting the guilt
« on: January 20, 2007, 01:13:56 AM »
I went to a workshop on working with survivors of trauma today. People were talking about abusive men and their partners. THey had a good laugh when they said that the women didn't really understand the dynamics of the conflicts until they realized that they had a part to play in it.  The workshop presenter said ,"yes, the woman could be a real nag". Everyone laughed.
I thought there was something really off about this. It got me going and feeling that I was responsible for Ns behaviour.
I played the relationship back and there were times when I would yell at N with frustration, " You have to contribute to the expenses". He would just look blankly at me or say that he was saving up for his retirement ( He is 54). He would not move on this point. I would say , "then you have to leave, you can't just keep staying and I am your cash cow". But he would not step up to the plate. He would not do housework. Or he would promise repeatedly to help but then not do anything. Finally, I would explode and he would say ," You're having an episode. You're mentally ill. These mood swings are getting worse."  And they did get worse.
 I was desperate for him to love me. I loved the look of him, the sound of his voice, the way he petted the cat, everything. But the more I cared about him the more contemptuous he became.

He got his own email address and I said. Hey, How come you have a secret email. He said that it was to keep track of his business. This was a lie. Sometimes I would quietly walk up to see what he was writing but he furtively cancelled the screen. He knew it was covert. Even when he was leaving to spend three weeks in a city far away to be with her, he said that he would be staying at her daughter's. He insisted that he was job searching because she had connections in high places. He would also mention that he was getting tested for STDs. We hadn't had sex in months. Or he would say off-handedly, " A marriage should be able to withstand an affair". So I would say,"Are you having an affair?" He would say '"No".
Finally, I could not stand the cat and mouse torture anymore and I started looking. I found out they talked on the phone every day long distance. He would phone her after phoning me.  They emailed nearly every night. I found one that said , "Goodnight kiss hug kiiss hug." I asked him about it and he said they had been friends in high school and they always used to say kiss hug kiss hug and it meant nothing.  I would feel like I was going nuts. All the lies for months.

He still tells me that they are just friends and that after a year they will look at having a relationship. I haven't talked to him for weeks about this stuff and I am starting to feel sane again slowly. He is convinced that I am a raging bi-polar disturbed, verbally abusive tragic character who threw away a very good man. A good man that did not contribute financially to the home for a year. When he got money he squirrelled it away in a private account. He wouldn't work, or help in the house or the yard for four years. We bought a fixer upper together and he did nothing.  He welched on the deal. But I was a nag.
I did nag and it drove me nuts. I wish I had stopped it much sooner. Now he says that he didn't work because of me. Somehow I was responsible for his not working.

He broke my spirit. But I got out. It is a hard road back.

Sea storm

Gaining Strength

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2007, 10:25:41 AM »
Ph boy Seastorm.  I see how yesterday's exerience could stir up the memories of that craziness you experienced with you husband.  I remember be caught in similar craziness over drinking and other just craziness and feeling that if  I could find someone who understood that they could straighten everything out.  Surely if someone other than myself could show him how crazy his thinking was then he would get it and change.  In the meanwhile, I did go crazy and got very, very angry which he used against me.  I'm sure it seemed to him that all the craziness was coming from me.  Only with a few years distance am I able to see my contribution and his. 

We both had very similar issues.  I insisted that be get premarital counseling from a priest who was well versed in Bowenian family systems.  This particular priest knew some of my family issues and had counseled my husband and his former wife before they had divorced.  But bizarrely the counseling didn't touch on ANYTHING that had been present and would be debilitating in our relationshp.  That is still very disturbing to me.  I know now that my behavior didn't cause the real problems, it only exacerbated them.  But boy - I was living in utter craziness and the crazier it made me the more ostracized I was.  That is one of the terrible things about abuse - the abused gets more and more ostracized as they react to the abuse. 

Thanks for sharing that.  It really helps me see how we can get so crazy in the midst of crazy making abuse.  -GS

seastorm

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2007, 03:29:16 AM »
Gaining Strength,

Sometimes I am blown away by your brilliance, support and insight. You also have a very diplomatic and honest streak.
things do get really crazy living with an N and they get ugly. If one has a lot of ego strength they can behave sort of like a kind person would in hell.

You are so right about the abused person starts to look like real offender material. Vulnerable, weak, disintegrating. I would say that the marriage counsellor we went to started out thinking he was manipulating me and vey controlling. After a few weeks and some private sessions with him,she was really feeling sorry for him. At least that is what he told me.  So this was not a big help. Most therapists aren't equipped to deal with sociopaths. It doesn't really occur to them. There was nothing in my training about this either. I felt ostracized then but I was in for much more slander in the near future.  I don't know if he was truly paranoid or if he was doing it on purpose.Eithere way. This is a phenomena that is very hard to experience and I am so glad that I can talk about it here and be believed. Most pople really can't relate to this level of insantiy.

I really appreciated your reply and thanks again.

Sea storm

axa

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2007, 03:40:15 AM »
Hi Sea Storm,

I too know the crazyness.  I think what chills me is that they stir it up knowing that you will react.  I know that I am responsible for my actions but when someone tells me they love me and dont want to leave me then spend weekend with exwife and come back praising how good she is for looking after HER daughter it does get to you.  I know how much I screamed and shouted.  I felt like I was at the edge and if I was a more evolved person I would have left a long time ago but I was trying tounderstand what was crazy.  I was trying to see some sense in what was going on and also hoping that someday somehow he would see sense and we could work it out.

I thinkwhat you need to remember is the buzz of the power.  You are a weeping mess and he is the cool restrained one.  Well of course you look crazy, from the outside.  Its is those who know about the abuse know the truth.

The problem with is is not that we are crazy it is that we forgave too much, tried to understand too much and did not know when to get out.

axa

seastorm

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2007, 03:50:13 AM »
Axa,

YOU ARE SO RIGHT


Sea storm

seastorm

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2007, 03:53:23 AM »
Dear Axa:

You are up late sweetie.  I hope you are not nashing your teeth. On the other hand.... nash away.
it is nice to know you are out there somewhere I am here too.  i am laughing at that. Sounds like Steve Martin. 

Keep the faith, bud.

Good night and sweet dreams.

Sea Storm

axa

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2007, 05:13:52 AM »
Storm,

Just sent message saying I was sitting here with a pencil between my teeth and thinking of cleaning them with something which makes meat soft...................... strange stuff.  I am being more aware of the clenching of my jaw.

Hope all is well with you


axa

Leah

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2007, 10:03:23 AM »
Quote
Most pople really can't relate to this level of insantiy.   

No they can't and I made the big big mistake of being too open and sharing with people
admittedly, I failed miserably in setting newly learned boundaries.

There is no-one you can talk to about this, this board and every kind person on it, is so very precious.

Leah
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

debkor

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2007, 12:41:52 PM »
Sea,

went to a workshop on working with survivors of trauma today. People were talking about abusive men and their partners. THey had a good laugh when they said that the women didn't really understand the dynamics of the conflicts until they realized that they had a part to play in it.  The workshop presenter said ,"yes, the woman could be a real nag". Everyone laughed.


Wow that is scary.

When I first contacted an attorney for divorce and told him the story.  He replied.  You think maybe your just a bitch

Love Deb

mudpuppy

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2007, 01:46:20 PM »
Debkor,

That's why we love lawyers so. :twisted:

Seastorm,

The thing that Ns and all abusers dearly love, is to provoke us into gving them an excuse. It's just the schoolyard bully thing in a different setting. When we respond in kind they then feel better about themselves because they know their behavior is sick and they know they have us playing their game. They intentionally provoke us to be able to blame their misbehavior on us. It's childs play to them.
 But there is a difference. If somebody is trying to kill us and we kill them instead it is homicide but it is justifiable homicide. If we fight back against these creeps it is, in the same way, perfectly justifiable. The problem is not that it is  wrong or causes their misbehavior, it's that it doesn't work. It just feeds their insanity and entwines us ever further into their web of tit for tat. There's nothing to feel guilty about standing up for yourself or 'nagging' or whatever you want to call it. But at some point we realize it's playing on their home field and is an unwinnable game.
The trick is to call the game on account of they're nutters, pick up our bat and ball and go find somebody that plays nice or at least plays fair (and isn't one unfortunate turn of events from being fitted for a straightjacket :roll:).

The only guilt is his. When you're fighting for your emotional and financial survival whatever your tormentor gets is well earned.

mud

seastorm

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2007, 04:35:57 PM »
Thankyou Mud,

I think I need to hear this a lot. I don't believe in screaming and yelling and I have demonstrated that I can be in very difficult  circumstances for long periods of time. On the fishboat, working with Attention Deficit and Fetal Alcohol damaged children day after day, I stayed calm and loving. I got so worn down and i was working so hard. It was ridiculous as I look back. But I am still too cllose to it all.

I keep finding out how much my X was bleeding from our account and how little he paid inot keeping up the house and all the expenses for boats and plane etc. I have a really hard time hating him for this. I just feel like the victim of a crime. Like I was run over by a truck. It is so hard when the criminal was my loved one and he did it for years. When I stopped the money supplly he left. I should just hate him and that is that but instead I go over it and over it. I wake up in the middle of the night or in the morning and start crying. I am trying to pull myself on shore. I reach out for help and get better a little bit at a time. Right now I feel so incredibly sad about the loss of the love that wasn't really there. Was it? It sure seemed real at the time. But I know it was not real. People who love each other don't do things like this.
Sometimes I post just to have contact with you guys. I am so alone in this.

Love
Sea storm

Gaining Strength

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2007, 05:15:23 PM »
Sometimes I post just to have contact with you guys.

I identify so closely with this Sea Storm.  In fact I was thinking about that and about your kind words to me, just this morning as I was getting ready to go to church.   What you are describing is very clearly grief - the desire to get back what was lost.  You are grieving what you thought you had, the relationship, the love that you thought you had.  That pain is real but it will not last.  It will go away but unfortunately you can not rush it.  It has to go away on its own.  But it will. I am sure of that.  - your friend - Gaining strength

Leah

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2007, 06:51:51 PM »

Quote
I identify so closely with this Sea Storm.  In fact I was thinking about that and about your kind words to me, just this morning as I was getting ready to go to church.   What you are describing is very clearly grief - the desire to get back what was lost.  You are grieving what you thought you had, the relationship, the love that you thought you had.  That pain is real but it will not last.  It will go away but unfortunately you can not rush it.  It has to go away on its own.  But it will. I am sure of that.  - your friend - Gaining strength

So true, you go through a bereavement process, grieving the loss of the relationship, the longer the relationship the more lengthy the process.

As explained to me by a bereavement therapist who specializes in relationship bereavement.

Add to that any hurt or betrayal etc., and loss of hopes and dreams, aspirations of having a lifetime partner sharing your life.

We have to breathe inbetween each stage of grieving.

Leah




Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

Hopalong

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2007, 07:08:56 PM »
Grieving friends...

I was just thinking this, when the tide is going out the waves still come in.

(((((((()))))))))

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

debkor

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Re: Fighting the guilt
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2007, 01:34:54 AM »
Mud,

Exactly!  I loved how you worded your post to sea. 

Love Deb