Religion/God/Fear

[gratitude28]

I have a deap-seated problem that I hope some of you might give me some insight to chew on...

Tiny background: Father atheist, very oppostitional to all things religious. Mother claims her church is so wonderful, but never goes. Doesn't even know anyone in the ministry. I went to an after school church group but was 100% disrespectful of it (shame, such shame). In grade school, I wanted to go to church, so for a while my mother would drop me off and let me go. In high school and college, convinced myself we are nothing more than mammals and all emotions were byproducts of natural tendencies. Became a drunk. Had to accept a higher power.

Now: Believe in God, but he/she/it is something non tangible. To me, God loves anyone who will accept him/her/it and helps anyone who finds his/her way to being good.

I used to be very unkind about religious people and had a very superior attitude towards anyone who was faithful, especially a "churchgoer." I am a lot better now. I respect people's faith and mostly think it is nice (except when they go into their "own interpretation" of the word...).

A nice lady moved in next door and she invited me to go to a Lady's Dinner with her at her church. I agreed and felt pleasant about it. But when I got there, I wanted to chew my arm off and escape. I felt I was in a steel trap.

Even here, when I offer to pray or post anything to do with God, I feel like a hypocrite, even though I mean it and believe in it.

Can anyone help me work through this? I am not sure I am explaining myself well. I hope someone will understand.

Love, Beth

[gratitude28]

CB,
I knew someone here would be able to help me start pinning down what it is that bothers me...

I used to dislike people intensely who were religious and I thought they were weak. And sometimes I feel that way still. When I was in that room with those ladies, they were so nice, but I kept looking around wondering how they had screwed up their lives. Because in my twisted thoughts, you can only love God if you are so messed up you can't rely on yourself.

I don't think my mother's beliefs ever affected me... they are so weak and obviously used just to control (I remember a Christmas Eve whn she tried to get us to go to Church and no one wanted to and she went on and on and on... and then decided she didn't feel like going...really religious, eh?) I did always respect my fatehr for being intelligent, and I felt that rejecting religion was a sign of intelligence (and intelligence was respected more than anything in our family.)

And even now, I feel that religious extremists have caused misery in the world (and are causing it). I wish we could truly "live and let live." You know, tell someone what you believe without the intention of converting them.

Thanks for listening and helping me get to the bottom of this. I have been wanting to bring it up for weeks, but couldn't bring myself to do it.

Love, Beth

[WRITE]

oh, there are so many people who will tell you they know all about G_d and 'you should do it my way....'

The strongest faith is one you develop for yourself through a relationship with the spirit and for a CHristian the highest teachings of Jesus: love G_d above all things and your fellow as yourself....

People get carried away when they undermine another's faith or try to dictate...we each have our G_d path and it's for us to determine.

The word hypocrite actually means 'someone who adopts another's beliefs', I have a longstanding problem with many Christian interpretations but my faith and life has never been stronger since I learned to trust G_d and let things unfold and put some emotional distance between myself and fanatics.

No one knows for certain what G_d is, our interpretations are all different based on our culture, era we live in, personality etc.

Jesus said pray quietly between ourselves and G_d, he gave an example and we even managed to turn that into a ritual!

Even in church I don't say anything I don't agree with and I keep a respectful silence whilst others do the rituals.

Love to you.

[axa]

My background is lapsed catholic, athiest, agnostic and now a mix of christian, a la carte buddhist and many more things.

I belive that ones relationship with their God/Higher Power.....   is personal.  I do not attend church.  I respect others faiths as long as they do not try and indoctrinate me.  I believe we all have a right to believe what we want.  I do not like organised religion too much as I have witnessed much of the abusive of power in some places.  At the end of the day I believe that only I am accountable for my life and only I have responsibility for it.

I believe in honesty, the power of love, justice and peace.  I believe that we are all on a journey and we make choices along the way.  I want to live a life of peace.  I believe in stillness, which I have great difficulty practising.  I believe in awareness and through awareness I will find my peace.

When my daughter died I believed that she was taken to a place of peace.  Other than that I have no idea.  I know she is not ill anymore and for that I am grateful.  I believe there are many roads and we each take the one we can travel.

I also want to say that in the days before my daughter's death I believe I experienced love.  Not love as I have known it but when I accepted her death, choose to let her go, encouraged her to leave me and this earth I felt, what I can only describe as bliss.  I felt as if it was something not of this world and that is the best way I can describe it.  I thought it would be so terrible and it was not.  It was love or God or the Holy spirit, or grace, or buddah, or whoever but it was beautiful.


axa

[kell as guest]

I was raised in a spiritually abusive way by an n mom.  It has taken me years to undo the guilt .  I now pray o God to reveal himself to me in a way I can embrace and understand.  I read many Christian books authored by people who reject the way most of us were raised in a typical Christian church from the 60s And 70s.

[Sela]

Hiya Beth:

God or the idea of God or a higher power is so tricky to grasp, I think, for plenty of people.  After all, there is no tangible proof that He exists and so belief must be based on faith alone.

Is it possible that your confusion stems from having faith left totally out of the equation?   What I mean is....your father totally rejected faith and your mother sounds like she didn't mention it?

Also....God and religions are two different things.  God is whatever higher power a person has faith in and religions are man made groups of worship (and some are crooked escapades, others cults, all kinds of creepy stuff too sometimes eh?).

One can have great faith but not be religious, imo.

I used to dislike people intensely who were religious and I thought they were weak.And sometimes I feel that way still.

Maybe this will help you to further define your thought?  Do you dislike people who have great faith or do you dislike people who devote themselves to worshipping/are deeply involved in a religion or do you dislike those who try to appear like that's what they're doing--the hypocrite?

Which is truly weakness?

To me, God loves anyone who will accept him/her/it and helps anyone who finds his/her way to being good.

(((((((Beth)))))))

Do you believe in a forgiving God/higher power?

I found this the hardest part for me.  To try to understand that God forgives every sinner....no matter how awful the sin......as long as the person is truly sorry and longs for His grace.  That means.....Hitler might be forgiven.....Saddam.....My abusers......

Then one thought came along that really helped me.

All sorry souls will be made pure because God forgives.

I truly believe that.  Even if a person goes astray and chooses to behave like a complete evil monster....

God is still present and will ......if asked with a sincere heart for forgiveness.....bestow it and purify that person's soul.

I guess.....that's what I really want from Hitler and Suddam and from my abusers anyway.  I want them to be accountable....take responsibility for their behaviour....be really, really sorry and to beg God for forgiveness (not me....because I forgive them for selfish reasons....to keep my soul from accumulating resentment and ...hate).  I trust that God will find a way to do them justice (and me too) but in the end.....they will be clean and pure and good in their hearts and souls and what more can I wish for?  That would make all souls good eh?  No more pain.  No more evil.  (and those who are not sorry.....who mock God and refuse to humble themselves.....I believe God has plans for them too!).

I wish we could truly "live and let live." You know, tell someone what you believe without the intention of converting them.

Ya.  I think some people believe they are doing a great service to God by trying to convert others (which will gain God's grace for themselves......so really....it's a bit of a selfish act...although I doubt they admit it).  Then, there are those who see a way to gain control and who take advantage and use God/Religions to convert...and eventually.....take power over others.  Again, for their own use, which seems more evil.
Then, there are those who see a person suffering and wish to offer some kind of hope.

It's hard to tell which is which sometimes.  I believe the first two are the hypocrites that will pay up later....accordingly.  And the last one, has good intentions and may actually do some good for some people.
Maybe the way to judge is by how pushy they are?  That always makes me wonder what's in it for them.

Sela

[moonlight52]

Hey Sela and Beth,


Quote from Sela
I guess.....that's what I really want from Hitler and Suddam and from my abusers anyway.  I want them to be accountable....take responsibility for their behavior....be really, really sorry and to beg God for forgiveness (not me....because I forgive them for selfish reasons....to keep my soul from accumulating resentment and ...hate).  I trust that God will find a way to do them justice (and me too) but in the end.....they will be clean and pure and good in their hearts and souls and what more can I wish for?  That would make all souls good eh?  No more pain.  No more evil.  (and those who are not sorry.....who mock God and refuse to humble themselves.....I believe God has plans for them too!).


Sela


You have said Sela "to keep my soul from accumulating resentment and...hate

We are all aspects of God
Faith in God is to be found the heart full of kindness forgiveness of self and others..........
I remember a thread way back about judgments taking the splinter out of one's own eye"etc

Faith is in the heart and mind and knowing and feeling of love and kindness a feeling and trust that we are all safe and free.......
almost the idea of "seeing this world as kindness and forgiveness brings us all closer to God.

love to you
moonlight

and thank you for these words of wisdom

[Bones]

I'm also in recovery and believe in a Power Greater Than myself, of my own understanding.  I prefer to avoid people who play religious politics (i.e. when they attempt to tell me "If you don't believe EXACTLY how I believe, you will go to hell!"  They could possibly be Narcissists.)  One saying that I came across that I found helpful to me:  "Religion is for people afraid of going to hell.  Spirituality is for people who have been to hell and back and lived to talk about it."

Bones

[moonlight52]

Hi Bones and Write,

Maybe the freedom to find one's own Faith and perspective is the fact we are living on a planet of freewill and what may strengthen Faith is the understanding that is so personal as Write says and to respect the faith of all is a good thing to be inclusive.....

People get carried away when they undermine another's faith or try to dictate...we each have our G_d path and it's for us to determine.
Love to you.

"Spirituality is for those who have been though hell and back "

moon
This is so true.

[Overcomer]

Beth:  We have talked on numerous occasions how narcissism, alcoholism and religion can all be intertwined.  I didn't know my nmom was an N all my life but I did know that she was all about her religion.  I became a Christian at a young age but it was a roller coaster ride.  Mostly the messages I got from the pulpit were "hell fire and brimstone."  Even when I was in my early 20s and I was sitting in a bar drinking a Margarita, I was sure if the Lord returned and the church was raptured, I would be left behind.  That is because I was brainwashed into thinking, we don't drink, we don't smoke, we don't do drugs, we don't dance, we ALWAYS go to Sunday School and church AND Sunday night church AND Wednesday night church.  I felt as though my whole life was based on a list of do's and don'ts.  When I would feel guilty over the "bad" things I did, my nmom would say I was being convicted by the Holy Spirit. 

Move forward to the thread we have been discussing on co-narcissism.  The part where it talks about being rebellious just to differentiate yourself from the control of the N parent.  So I became a party hardy!!!  I don't know if it was to punish my nmom or not.  But I realized later in life that my nmom never showed up to a class party or to watch me cheerlead.  But boy, oh boy.................we could never ever miss church!!

So how can I now have a faith in Christ - after all the spiritual abuse, etc.  Well, it is because I started reading books of men who think differently then the way I was raised.  Suddenly it all made sense.  I believed.  I just didn't believe how my parents wanted me to believe.  Authors like John Eldredge and Brennon Manning and Erwin McManus and Brian McLaren and Richard Foster..................and CS Lewis and Lee Strobel....................these guys who weren't brainwashed..................they think outside the box.  And even though I like to watch different shows on TBN (not all, but some) I cannot stand the way Paul and Jan Crouch present themselves.  Just like The Baker's made a mockery of Christianity, Jan's pink hair makes Christians the laughing stock of all intelligent human beings.

So when i talk about looking up and giving it up to God?  I have to do that because if I don't, I will surely go crazy.  I have to say, "God?  I don't know what you are doing but I will gladly go through this if I will grow and learn and come out a better person on the other side..............and if I don't get this job that I want badly, I am secure in the knowledge that it is not what you want for me at this time and I'll continue to make strides to do better!!!!!"

[Bones]

Hi Bones and Write,

Maybe the freedom to find one's own Faith and perspective is the fact we are living on a planet of freewill and what may strengthen Faith is the understanding that is so personal as Write says and to respect the faith of all is a good thing to be inclusive.....

People get carried away when they undermine another's faith or try to dictate...we each have our G_d path and it's for us to determine.
Love to you.

"Spirituality is for those who have been though hell and back "

moon
This is so true.

Thanks, Moon!

Bones

[Sela]

We are all aspects of God ........
Faith is in the heart and mind and knowing and feeling of love and kindness a feeling and trust that we are all safe and free.......

Thankyou for your wonderful wise words too Moon.

"If you don't believe EXACTLY how I believe, you will go to hell!" 

What complete nonsense eh Bones?  But the perfect stuff to scare children with (and some vunerable adults too!!). 

we don't dance

Gee Kell, all the rules.....must have felt so stifling.....or something.  How controlling!!  No wonder you rebelled.  This no dancing business, I've heard of before and I always wonder:

"Do they look at the ballet and ball room dancers, the skaters, the dance clubs, the bars, the weddings, the many gorgeous dances performed in different countries according to culture and art.....and suppose that allllllllllllllll of those people are going straight to H E double hockey sticks???"

It's so easy to see the idiocy of that as an adult but as a child......with the enough repitition.....with enough isolation........ I can imagine how the fear is slowly and carefully embedded and conformation is achieved.

You brave soul Kell!  And I'm so glad you've found your faith on your own and have so much sense to reject a religion based/advanced by instilling fear!!

God does not terrorize!!   That's just twisted, if you ask me.  I'm so glad you were able to disengage from all of that!

  Sela

[Bones]

Thanks, Sela!

I've had one person attempt to tell me that "God told her to order me to convert to Catholicism!"  She got firmly reminded that SHE does NOT have an EXCLUSIVE pipeline to God!  (How N is that?!?!?)  This was the same individual who threw a snit-fit because her then-son-in-law had a vasectomy without HER permission!  She has a very hard time respecting other people's boundaries.

Bones

[gratitude28]

I am sorry I took so long to respond to all of the wonderful, helpful posts here.

Thank you ((((((((((((((everyone)))))))))))))))

I have realized one thing... I should have explained... I am not looking for religion. I am comfortable with my HP right now (although I do need to get my butt in order and pray more). What I really want is not to be judgemental or have negative thoughts towards others because of their choice in religion. You rposts have help me clarify so much all this jumbled mess in my head and separate what is mine and what came from outside input.

CB
I guess it's not really a hypocrite, I actually feel some kind of revulsion when I say the words. There was such a mixup about it all when I was a really little child. I am just remembering that at a VERY young age, I used to stay with my grandmother and she would let me watch whatever was on TV (late night too, since I was her company until the wee hours of the morning even at three and four years old). Some of the things I remember seeing were Vampire movies. And the others were very scary Bible movies.

write and leah,
I struggle with loving God above all else. For some reason, that is so hard for me. I eve read the Purpose Driven Life, but I felt like it was just not right for me. Again, I feel that fear (and the desire to bolt) whenver the idea comes up.

axa,
What a beautiful post. And you are very much like I am with my beliefs. I am sure God is taking care of your baby. She was so fortunate to have a loving mom.

Kell,
I hope you find want works best for you. It must be hard to find what seems real when it was forced upon you as a child. And this is much how I was considered by my parents... I was not a person. I was the sum of the actions they knew of. So I always felt I was "bad" if I drank or smoked or had sex or whatever. I have also been good about letting God decide what is needed in my life (even if it isn't what I wanted or hoped for).

Sela,
I DO believe in a forgiving God... even for the monsters of our times. I think I believe that need to want to become good, though. I am not sure. I will need to think more about this. I used to think of God as punishing me a lot. I don't believe that now. I see what he has given me and there are always good answers from him/her/it is I ask and wait... I think I used to be spiteful in the way that I thought God would "get bad people" - that they would get what was coming to them. I don't think that is a good thought to hold, so I just try to do what I need to do to be good now and I don't worry about what happens to those who have chosen differently. Your points are good and I need to review and study them and pin down more of what I think.

Moon,
As always, your words are kind and gentle and sweet. Thank you.

Bones,
That is just what I believe. But I am trying not to dislike those people... it's so hard. I just get so annoyed with people who think they have the definitive answer on anything...

Thank you again so much everyone. I feel a bit of loosening... a bit of clarity...
Love, Beth

[Bones]

Hi, Beth.

I'm not saying to dislike them.  I prefer to avoid them because they are unpleasant to be around them.

Bones