Author Topic: Love and Truth  (Read 3463 times)

gratitude28

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Love and Truth
« on: February 22, 2007, 11:59:35 PM »
CB wrote this in another thread and I pulled it out.

There is a true truth in the world.  And I am sure it can be known, and probably this philosophical question is imbedded in it.  But I havent seen much good come out of the belief that some people don't deserve love.  So, I choose to operate as though they do--because of who I want to be

I thought about this all night last night, CB.

If you feel nurturing, that is a lovely feeling... And let's say you have a dead plant you are nurturing. While you may be OK with the feeling of keeping the soil nice... the plant is dead. So, while the good intention is there (love and nurturing), the point of it is rather wasted without something to be the receipient.
With the N, I think it is much the same. You are giving love to a creature who can't understand it. And, while the creature doesn't feel it as love, it knows it is power... which almost ruins the pureness of the feeling that was intended.

Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

pennyplant

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2007, 04:43:22 AM »
I'm going to try and keep this dead plant image in mind, Beth.  I think it will help will in gaining some kind of detachment as well as understanding.

Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Leah

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2007, 05:41:32 AM »

((( Beth )))

Wonderful allegory

Perfectly illustrates ......... likewise, I am going to 'save this'

Especially with regard to ' Balanced Thinking '   (to include the Positive and the Negatives)

no amount of positive thinking is going to resurrect that plant!!

Leah

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Stormchild

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2007, 07:59:28 AM »
Terrific metaphor, Beth. Thanks so much.

This is one of those ideas that stays with you and helps for the rest of the journey.

:cool:
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Leah

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2007, 02:36:59 PM »


(((Beth)))

Just wanted to pass on a word of heartfelt "thanks" to you from someone, who needed and appreciated your allegory.

Leah

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Hopalong

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2007, 10:40:40 PM »
I may have gotten off easy in N-land compared to others.
I am sure I have.

But still, I can't deny them their humanity.

When I think that way it twists me into a direction that feels wrong.

It's not the same as condoning their behavior or making myself vulnerable to them.
Not at all.

Just philosophically, I refuse to separate myself from them as another human being.

They are broken in ways that make them dangerous for me to be around them, so I won't be.
And I know some should be locked up and have the key tossed into the moat.

Don't mean to belabor the point but somehow I feel if I reach the point where I declare that anyone, at all, is not a human being, then I am less human myself.

Hops

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Stormchild

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2007, 10:48:29 PM »
Hops, we have to agree to disagree on this.

You know that business about coats being sold in this country having dog fur on them?

Apparently, some of the dogs were skinned without first being killed.

It was videotaped.

Can you even begin to imagine those poor animals' agony? Their terror?

Hops, to me, the people who did that are no longer members of the human race in any way. To consider such evil creatures as my brothers and sisters is what would make me less of a human being.

There's a lot more evil, just like that and worse, walking this earth on two legs, wearing human faces. It starts with innocent, defenseless animals. It rarely ever stops there.

Please consider what you defend.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 12:47:53 AM by Stormchild »
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

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Hopalong

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2007, 01:38:07 AM »
Sure, we can disagree, Storm. I'm startled anyone could interpret my post as me defending evil.

I don't use the word, mostly. Many people do and it's a very powerful word. For me personally, I'm sure because of the particular way I evolved in my particular life, it has a primitive feel to it that conjures up something I don't like to participate in. I find that my own thinking about evil, or about human indifference to suffering, locks up, gets frozen, when I label a person  "evil". I don't progress. I did not like People of the Lie for this reason.

I just progress more when I set boundaries in my own mind, my own personal way of using language to guide my thoughts and my life. This is an example. It has been helpful for me. I can see that the word is important to you, and I see its utility. Nobody else's brain has to work like mine does. (Thank heaven.)

My resisting using that label personally might be misunderstood. But that's why I said it has nothing to do with condoning cruelty or wanting perpetrators to not be held accountable. I think the way I would be more likely to describe people who torture animals, or human beings, is insane, or morally broken. I wish they were all safely locked up, and permanently.

Hmmm. Another thought. I think the word "evil" increases fear in my world. I don't like to feed that part of myself, because I am working on becoming happier and more effective. One example is trying to follow GS' example of paying closer attention to what I place in my head. In terms of thoughts, and the words that make up my thoughts.

But...I "see" with words, and I do see broken and dangerous people as human beings. I am not in the slightest denial about how destructive and amoral humans can be.

We are a stunningly complicated species.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Stormchild

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2007, 10:55:58 AM »
Sure, we can disagree, Storm. I'm startled anyone could interpret my post as me defending evil.

I don't use the word, mostly. Many people do and it's a very powerful word. For me personally, I'm sure because of the particular way I evolved in my particular life, it has a primitive feel to it that conjures up something I don't like to participate in. I find that my own thinking about evil, or about human indifference to suffering, locks up, gets frozen, when I label a person  "evil". I don't progress. I did not like People of the Lie for this reason.

I just progress more when I set boundaries in my own mind, my own personal way of using language to guide my thoughts and my life. This is an example. It has been helpful for me. I can see that the word is important to you, and I see its utility. Nobody else's brain has to work like mine does. (Thank heaven.)

My resisting using that label personally might be misunderstood. But that's why I said it has nothing to do with condoning cruelty or wanting perpetrators to not be held accountable. I think the way I would be more likely to describe people who torture animals, or human beings, is insane, or morally broken. I wish they were all safely locked up, and permanently.

Hmmm. Another thought. I think the word "evil" increases fear in my world. I don't like to feed that part of myself, because I am working on becoming happier and more effective. One example is trying to follow GS' example of paying closer attention to what I place in my head. In terms of thoughts, and the words that make up my thoughts.

But...I "see" with words, and I do see broken and dangerous people as human beings. I am not in the slightest denial about how destructive and amoral humans can be.

We are a stunningly complicated species.

Hops

Thanks, Hops. Indeed we are, but I think we also complicate things for ourselves quite often when there is no need. Now that they've discovered chimpanzees are spearing little sleeping bushbabies to death in their nests, I'm even more convicted with regard to the inhumanness of certain actions.

Here's a bushbaby. Fast asleep, defenseless against a spear? Talk about doomed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galago

Here are some raccoon dogs, unwilling contributor to those stylish coats:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccoon_Dog

If you wish to extend love to people who skin these pretty little animals alive because you truly believe that they are just like you, really, deep down inside, and that you are capable of that yourself, that's your choice; I hope, though, that if you had to face the natural consequences of that decision in realspace, you would recoil in utter horror.

I prefer to avoid such people, keep those I love out of range of any such, and work diligently, insofar as is within my scope, to limit their opportunities to do harm in this world.

But then, I know absolutely that I will never, under any circumstances, deliberately choose to skin an animal alive. I am a coward in some major ways, a lot of them places where I haven't figured out a 'good' way to respond to something 'bad'. But there are things I am willing to die for, and that includes certain convictions. I would starve before I would do something like that to any creature. I've put my money where my mouth is on a number of other occasions, over several other convictions, to the point where I've endured significant personal privation as a direct consequence. So I know this with certainty.

I think the bottom line is just that I'm less afraid of certain things than you are, and more afraid of certain other things than you are. I don't see that as stunningly complex - it's just a fact of life.

In a few decades, give or take, we'll both have our answers, and then we will know how well we chose the things we fear. Meanwhile, we disagree, and I will try to respect your choices while continuing to respect mine.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 01:42:20 PM by Stormchild »
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"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

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mudpuppy

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2007, 01:33:21 PM »
As the perpetrator of the original question on Toodles thread I would like to say that I agree with CBs bisection of the nature of the question and how we should live.
Whether people deserve love is largely an academic question or a moot point, as in it is merely debatable and of little practical value.
I happen to think people do not automatically deserve love. But like CB I believe it is important to treat them as though they do. They are not mutually exclusive.
I believe the most important and immediate beneficiary of us living that way is not those we aim our love at but ourselves. If we begin to pick and choose who will receive love and who won't we will have usurped God and nothing good ever comes of that. Where our discretion should be I think is in how we love those who are most unlovable and destructive not whether we love them.

I have to respectfully disagree with Stormchild on one point. I think the cruel and heartless are being all too human. If I discount the basest human behavior as not human I have denied what is in each one of us at some level; what each one of us, given a certain upbringing or influence or just enough stress and fear, is capable of.
I don't want  to risk becoming the Pharisee standing on the corner praying "God I thank you I am not like these other men....." because I am like all other men.
I want to be the tax collector bowing his head and praying "God be merciful to me a sinner".

mud

Leah

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2007, 01:50:37 PM »
CB's post was regarding the issue of whether or not a person "Deserves to be loved"

Beth's thread / post is ........

If you feel nurturing, that is a lovely feeling... And let's say you have a dead plant you are nurturing. While you may be OK with the feeling of keeping the soil nice... the plant is dead. So, while the good intention is there (love and nurturing), the point of it is rather wasted without something to be the recipient.
With the N, I think it is much the same. You are giving love to a creature who can't understand it. And, while the creature doesn't feel it as love, it knows it is power... which almost ruins the pureness of the feeling that was intended.



So with regard to Beth's thread / post (this one) and her allegory of the dead plant ..... I interpreted it as such ......

The N's in my life did not want my love. 

I was watering them with my love ........ and their heart was dead ....... unreceptive.


Leah



Regarding Sin and Sinners ...... God unconditionally loves the Sinner ........ but hates the Sin.

A truly Repentant Sinner is Forgiven by God ...... and his/her sins are remembered no more.

God's freewill saving Grace ...... we are unworthy - we don't deserve it .. nor .. can we earn it.



« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 01:57:53 PM by LeahsRainbow »
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mudpuppy

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2007, 01:56:34 PM »
Quote
So with regard to Beth's thread / post (this one) and her allegory of the dead plant ..... I interpreted it as such ......

The N's in my life did not want my love. 

I was watering them with my love ........ and their heart was dead ....... unreceptive.

I agree Leah. That's why I say we must love people differently. Those who are destructive must be loved at a distance. Even if our love only amounts to hoping for the best for them and never contacting them again it is still a form of love.

mud

Stormchild

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2007, 02:07:26 PM »
In a few decades, give or take, we'll all have our answers, and then we will know how well we chose.

Meanwhile, we disagree. I will respect your choices while continuing to respect mine.
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

Leah

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2007, 02:19:13 PM »

Quote
So with regard to Beth's thread / post (this one) and her allegory of the dead plant ..... I interpreted it as such ......

The N's in my life did not want my love. 

I was watering them with my love ........ and their heart was dead ....... unreceptive.



I agree Leah. That's why I say we must love people differently. Those who are destructive must be loved at a distance. Even if our love only amounts to hoping for the best for them and never contacting them again it is still a form of love.

mud


Yes, I understand what you are saying Mud - and I agree with you. 

With my N's .. never felt any hate at all - not did I seek vengeance.  The love in my heart for them is one of Agape compassion. 
Believe it or not I have even been supportive to them on occasions, from a distance.  Particularly, as my exnH is the father of my son.

Having said that, Truth, Reality, Wisdom and Discernment must always be my guide.


C.S. Lewis wrote a book on the Four Loves ..... from the greek origin meaning of love, of which there are four words ....


Storge -  Affection ....  is fondness through familiarity, especially between family members or people who have otherwise found themselves together by chance

Phillia   -  Friendship .... is a strong bond existing between people who share a common interest or activity.

Eros    -  Eros ............ is love in the sense of 'being in love'.

Agapē -  Charity ......... is a love directed towards one's neighbor which does not depend on any lovable qualities that the object of love possesses. Lewis recognizes this as the greatest of loves, and sees it as a specifically Christian virtue.


Studied both CS Lewis writings on Love from the Greek origin and meaning, in addition to the works of Zodhiates Greek Bible and
in all, finally understood what Love actually is in real terms.

God Bless you.

Leah

Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

mudpuppy

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Re: Love and Truth
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2007, 02:42:38 PM »
I will not expand on this post nor respond to anyone's comments about it and I do not direct it toward anyone in particular, but;

I find it very annoying when I post an innocent statement in good faith and one person who may be having a problem with another person uses that innocent statement to indirectly criticise the person they are in conflict with. I have seen it happen to others as well as myself. It is not particularly ethical and it often causes misunderstandings between people who have nothing to do with the conflict. It also leads to self censorship as people try to avoid being drawn into other's probems.

I would appreciate anyone who is having a conflict with someone else to please keep the problem confined to the other person directly and not use my or other people's words to make a point.

If anyone has no idea what I'm talking about then you can be sure you had nothing to do with it. :P

mud