"making nice"

[sjkravill]

I am needing space to think/be heard.  If you have experienced an N "making nice" it might help me.   Thanks for indulging.  I am still utterly confused about whether or not my H is a N, and whether or not he can or will chage.
      In the last couple of weeks I have told him that I am not ready to buy our first house together.  I cited his two threats to leave me (in the last month and a hlaf) as evidence of the questionable stability of our marriage. As much as he wanted to buy a house in the next month or so, he seemed very respectful of my request.  (A couple of friends had advised me that his desire to buy a house could be a way to convince me and himself that everything is going to be OK.) My H does not want to admit how serious our problems are.
      He assured me that he would never leave me.  Since his threats, and since that conversation he has been extremely sweet. He has professed his love for me (to an almost sickening extent). He has promised to spend more quality time, he has made me dinner, done chores, opened up emotionally making astute observations about the inappropriateness of his behavior, and promises to change.  He has even recommended we go to couples counseling again. (last time. I brought him to counseling, and soon learned it was a mistake to impose my will on the situation). This time he promises to be involved.  I told him I would agree to that if he took the responsiblity to make the plans.  
      My problem is, I am less and less trusting of his kind words and promises, because this seems to be a pattern with him.  As soon as the pressure is off he reverts back to self-centeredness, more characteristically N behavior. He has never abused me physically. Emotionally and verbally, at times he behaves respectfully, and other times he  really does not.  I think this behavior is truly on some level of his unconscious. Consciously, he would never hurt me.  He thinks he is a very good husband, but he is unaware of the part of him that needs control. Equally powerful is my hope and belief that he can and will change.  Maybe this time he is really changing.  He sure sounds and acts as though he will change. How will I know?  Is this all in my head?  Will I ever be able to trust him if he does change?  How do I even know what to look for (in him changing).  Only time will tell, I guess.
      This time is different from my point of view. My own health and well being is my first priority.  I am noticing the cumulative effects of the longterm and constnat stress of this relationship.  I am unwilling to live for very much longer under these conditions.  So, this time around, if he sets up counseling, If I don't sense real improvement on his part, I will request time off if for no other reason than for me to return to health. That is, if I can find the strength within myself.  
      His "making nice" always makes me nervous.  It is so easy for me to be seduced and fooled into believing things will be ok.  At the same time I am confused, because maybe I am being too cautious, and depriving him of intimacy (as he has accused me).  I worry that it is not serious enough for me to be contemplating separation. I worry that it is very serious, and it will only get more subtle and harder for me to detect. I wonder if reconciliation is possible or even good in this circumstance.  I have absolutely no clarity.  
      Has anyone else experienced this kind of "making nice"  and the confusion/ lack of trust that comes with it?  What have you learned?
Thanks for listening! sjkravill

[surf14]

I'd say go with your gut instinct; ie if you are guarded about his 'making nice'  there is probably a good reason for it.  Try the couseling if you are not sure; it may help to have third party officiate and to give you more personal clarity.  Surf

[write]

read Patricia Evans: The Verbally Abusive Relationship and Lundy Bancroft Why does he do that: inside the minds of angry and controlling men ( they're both on the new booklist in the forum index )

Empower yourself before you take any big steps.

Marriage is a difficult unfair business, patriarchy/ male chauvinism abound and many men still think they are just being real men with their agressive or controlling behaviours.
We buy into the myth of romantic love= equality when actually many of us commence marriage from the one-down position, and are not viewed fairly or as equals right from day one.

The N 'making nice' behaviour will exasperate you over time, it's more about his neediness and controlling than about meeting your needs.

Don't get deeper in while your instinctive alarm bells are ringing I'd say, once you are financially ( and emotionally if you go on to have kids ) permanently linked you'll find it harder to assert ( or even retain ) yourself.

Have you had any personal therapy? I wish I had before I had even considered marrying years ago.

[rosencrantz]

Honestly, sjkravill - we read the same story over and over and it never changes.  It's hard when you're right in the middle of it and you want it not to be true and fear what will happen if you take that fatal step and people around you don't understand the true nature of what's going on.

write is right!!  Read to empower yourself.  Patricia Evans 'Controlling People' tells it from the inside.  You can't not understand after that one!

Just a small warning bell about therapy.  If you know what you want to do and you want support whilst you do it, then be clear about that and go for it.  But be wary of using therapy as a way of deciding what you want to do unless you are quite sure the therapist really understands this kind of thing or is a specialist in this area.

You're going round in circles right now - Read the books, and I'm sure you'll know where to get off the merry go round!!
Good luck
R

[seeker]

Hi there,

Great insights above.  Just to add my impressions from your post:

Buying a house at this tentative emotional stage feels like "golden handcuffs".  

Also, people don't change.  People don't change.  We can only change ourselves.  If he is promising change, one would have to witness this changed behavior over time to really know the results.  Think about dieting and how hard it is to change eating habits...will a person stick with the new behavior once the desired weight is achieved?  Or revert back to cookies and donuts?  It takes at least three months to incorporate new behavior and even then relapses are possible.

"Making nice" could also be that "honeymoon" period in a cycle of abuse.  That is Nice/Tension/Blowup/Nice/Tension/Blowup.  One idea (just brainstorming) is to set a date off in the future (six months to a year) for buying the house.  His reaction should tell you whether or not he is making nice just to massage you into buying the house.  From your post, it really sounds like you don't trust him and he has to earn your trust back.

Good luck to you.  Hope this helps a little bit.  Seeker

[Anonymous]

His quick change into sweetness and consideration isn't likely to be permanent. People don't change so radically within a short time. It's probably a sincere effort to court your favor and get you to buy a house with him. You are wise not to do so.  Buying a house is INCREDIBLY stressful, it is one of the most high-pressure things a couple can do.  I think couples therapy is needed here, and it's not "imposing your will." It's making an investment in the marriage.

bunny

[pandora]

Hi skravil,

I second the recommendations of the books mentioned above.  Patricia Evans books were very helpful to me in seeing some of the things going on in my marriage.  

Even if your husband is not N, your unease comes from somewhere, and it sounds like he is the source of a good part of it.  Pay attention to your health - sometimes your body recognizes a situation for what it is before your mind.  

I don't know if this is the case with you, but I often found that after a verbal encounter with my husband, I would feel upset and confused - but I did not understand why.  After all, he never screamed and swore at me.  And he often was very sweet and affectionate.  So I pushed back those feelings, I figured there was something wrong with me.  It was only after his verbal abuse became more extreme and more frequent that I slowly began to see that it was NOT me and that, as a previous poster wrote - something was WRONG.  

There could be all sorts of contributing factors to what you are feeling - something from your own past, he may be acting out patterns from his past, etc.  Get a good counselor to help you deal with this.  

I share with you the hope and belief that people can change.  I have a good friend who is a recovered alcoholic, I know that he struggles every day, but he HAS been able to change what was for him very destructive behavior.  But he had to see his behavior for what it was, be brutally honest with himself, and take the responsibility for that change upon himself.  That is the only way it can happen.  Don't take the responsibility for your husband's change on yourself.  

Good luck, and take care of yourself no matter what.  Find friends or family members that will help you.  Don't isolate yourself!

Peace, Pandora

[sjkravill]

Thank you to everyone for your help and support!  I have been reading your responses over and over.  So many pieces of wisdom.
 
I really appreciate your astute observations and your validation, and suggested reading.

I do worry a little about counseling.  The last two counselors did not seem to see through his charm.  I do have trouble trusting my own experience and instincts. Friends whom I have told about our relationship immediately say that it sounds like an abusive pattern...
Time will tell, hopefully.  I am also seeing a therapist on my own who thinks he is abusive. But, I am the only one who lives with him, who loves him, who is terribly confused, scared, angry and hopeful all at the same time. I am trying to walk the tightrope of being open to the possibility of change and yet not being seduced by promises and good intentions.  Only time will tell.

Today I had a new observation:
I have had this problem with feeling like I have to explain myself to him.  I usually give him the same explanations over and over.  I stopped explaining because he was twisting my words and making things my fault.  When he is "making nice" he doesn't seem to twist my words. He is very respectful, which seduces me into explaining more.  I wonder if I am giving up too much power in this instance.  Perhaps I should stick to not explaining because it gives him another way to promise exactly what I want...  Maybe he needs to get his information from inside himself.  This is so tough, because surely in more normal relationships (if there is such a thing) articulate and open communication is beneficial.  

Thank you all again, for sharing your strength and wisdom.
Peace! sjkravill

[pandora]

Today I had a new observation:
I have had this problem with feeling like I have to explain myself to him. I usually give him the same explanations over and over. I stopped explaining because he was twisting my words and making things my fault. When he is "making nice" he doesn't seem to twist my words. He is very respectful, which seduces me into explaining more. I wonder if I am giving up too much power in this instance. Perhaps I should stick to not explaining because it gives him another way to promise exactly what I want... Maybe he needs to get his information from inside himself. This is so tough, because surely in more normal relationships (if there is such a thing) articulate and open communication is beneficial.

This sounds all too familiar to me.  You might also want to look for the book I mentioned in a post a while ago "Loving the Self-absorbed".  One of the main points in the book is that "desireable" communication patterns and styles - like emotional openness - can actually be counterproductive with an N.  And I have experienced many "word twisting" incidences with my husband.  The book might help you determine if NPD is a factor here.

Does he save up the explanations that you give while he is "making nice" and then you find your own words - spoken in an attempt to be honest and open- turned against you later?  This happened to me several times- in therapy, my husband would bring up things I had said to him (like "I don't think I can trust you" - pretty understandable after an affair!) and make them seem like evidence against me.

Your friends and therapist may have objectivity that you lack, this was true in my case- so keep talking to them.  

peace, Pandora

[write]

I do worry a little about counseling. The last two counselors did not seem to see through his charm.

I believe this is a common problem with N., though the couple counsellor we saw together some years ago told my husband point blank there was nothing he could do for him! he was so not open to change the whole time.

Couple counselling is more appropriate for two people who have already worked out their individual issues, to help in a relationship problem.

The fact you say 'see through his charm' shows that you already have seen through him, and are questionning his attitude and behaviour.

Keep building yourself up, no matter what he wants, and so if it comes to a point you want out you have reserves of inner strength to draw upon.

Take good care of yourself.

[Sally]

sjkravill: Wanted to add my total support of what everyone has said to you. When reading your post I had that awful sinking feeling that I have lived through with my exN for over 20 years.

Being in that place where he would be sooo charming and I would trust him and his love for me, and feel his openness with me; followed shortly thereafter by another one of those withdrawals.  Wondering what on earth I had done?  How had he changed so completely?  Listening to his very short, but oh so stinging little remarks.  

It has gone on for so many years that  sometimes I feel as if I have now become mentally fragile. I've lost my own strength, my trust in life, trust in people.  There is a hopelessness that this will never end.

In our last face to face meeting three weeks ago he told me how much he loved me, how he wanted so much for us to get married again, how I was the only person he felt safe with and had ever really loved.  And then nothing.  Coldness, silence, withdrawal until I finally disconnected my phone and shut off my email to him.  I couldn't go through that cycle one more time.

And yet, here I am tonight again in pain and sadness, tears pouring down my face as I write this because one more time I have to face the withdrawal.  The ache the wonder of why? how? what was it all for? The realization this time that I never really meant anything to him. (Now that I fianlly get what Narcissism is about). Knowing I will never see him or talk to him again. Knowning once again there will be no closure.  Knowing once again that the charming side I loved so is gone.

Will therapy help you?  I think Rosencrantz said it so well.  Unless they have lots of experience with the symptoms and behaviors of a Narcisisist I wouldn't trust they they will be of any help.

For twenty years of therapy, not once did any therapist ever once mention that he might be a narcissist and that I was being drawn to him because of learning that kind of love from my narcissistic mother.

I truly believed, knowing what I know now, that I would be spared the pain this time.  That this time I would be able to walk away with no damage.  But it wasn't true.  I'm sixty years old, I met this man when I was 38. I have given him all of those years of my life.  No one has ever worked harder on trying to change themselves than I have.  For him.  To make him happy.  To try and keep him happy.  To try and keep him in his "make nice" behavior.  I am in a lot of pain tonight, so my perspective is probably not the best, but I truly cannot see what good has come from any of this.  All I have learned has not made me a better person for a relationship because I could could never trust a man again.

My son who watched all of this take place since he was 13 is now suffering in a realtionship with a narcissist also.  Apparantely he learned from me how to do that.  

If I lived near you sjkravill, I would want to come to your house and drag you away, begging you to listen to me.  It's really come to that for me the only way to make sense of my whole life would be if I could convince just one person not to do what I did.  

Everyone on this site has been so supportive and wise.  Please listen to what they are saying to you.  Do the reading. Don't belive for a minute that his behavior has anything to do with you.  Don't twist yourself to make him happy.  Learn everything you can about a narcissist, and listen to the wise people on this site who have experienced the pain of living with this kind of man.

You sound very intelligent and your thinking is clear and sound.  Don't second guess yourself. The truth about who is can be found within you. I wish you all of the best.  Sally

[rosencrantz]

Oh Sally, I find myself wanting to say to you that he cared about you in his own way but I'm not sure if that's just because I want you to feel better and I want to stop your pain!!!  Things get so very complicated.

You are bereaved.  You are experiencing loss.  It's a loss you've put off for a long time in the hope it would all work out. You've worked on yourself big time just to avoid that loss.

It's very hard to sit here and not reach out with solutions and thoughts and support but I think that's my need and not yours.

So I'm trying to come from a different place right now.

If you worked on yourself 'for' someone else then I can see that it must seem that it was totally pointless.  You've done far more work than you ever need have done!!!!!  

But, what if 'whoever comes, God sent' (or 'we, ourselves, invited them for a purpose')... maybe this guy came to make you into what you are today.  Maybe you wouldn't have done all that work without him?  And I can tell from your posts how sound you are now.  Maybe you wouldn't have done it FOR yourself - ???

But, boy, that would make me feel so resentful!!  LOL

It's reminding me of the one person who came into my life who I felt should never have come.  Everyone else, yes, I invited them in, even if the relationship hurt me.  I could learn from them.  But this one...

I ended up very, very confused and there are negatives from that experience that live on in my life still.  BUT if I hadn't had that experience, lots of other things wouldn't have happened either.

And the biggest thing I learnt is that it's possible to build when all you've got left is a big fat zero - when you've lost absolutely everything - all you do is take a single step...

The only concern I've had in believing that fate has a purpose for us, is 'what if it's a negative one'!!!  But since I came to understand that we attract our own fate and that it is possible to trust ourselves to attract a positive fate, things have become much easier.

What do you want next, Sally?  People are always so busy defining us - now it's our turn to define what WE want!    Life begins whenever you want it to - and that's not a platitude - but I know I haven't quite reached the point where I'm ready to redefine my future just yet and I seem to be relating very much to exactly where you are on your journey.  

Hey, you can take all this with a pinch of salt, if you want - but just know that it takes time to work through a loss, even if nobody died.  

Say,  haven't we also lost something else?? Our definition of ourselves in relation to someone else???  That's worth grieving over, too.  But hey - what a great new definition you can make for yourself NOT in relation to someone like THAT!!!!  Gosh - this is a whole new ballgame!!!!!  

R

[write]

It has gone on for so many years that sometimes I feel as if I have now become mentally fragile. I've lost my own strength, my trust in life, trust in people. There is a hopelessness that this will never end.


Dear Sally

I hear your despair and want to tell you: it will end. It will end.

Your fragility is a direct result of years of narcissist-inflicted traumas, you have been drained.

Now you are realising what has happened to you the pain is so great I know.

I have had that feeling of 'wasting' so much life on trying to be married, the anger of realising I have been abused, and the frustration that few people really see what torture its been.
Then the agony of trying to leave the relationship, to set up practicalities, to assert myself against the continual pressure to capitulate and be available to him again.

Be strong Sally: get whatever help you need.
Let this board be an outlet for your grief. Many of us have been where you are and can support you.

Nothing is ever truly wasted, you might not see or feel it today but the things which have happened to you go to make up the unique wonderful being that is you.

Take every care of yourself as you heal: eat well, exercise, find positive people and bring ordinary good experiences into your life again. It's a very beautiful world, drink deep of that and turn away from your pain for a time every day.

Take care of yourself now.
[/b]

[Sally]

Rosencrantz and Guest: Hope you won't mind that I write to both of you at the same time, rather than seperately.  Not sure I have ever received two more understanding and kind responses.  What helps the most is knowing that you have been where I am.  I think this is one of the hardest parts of this situation...the isolation it creates just by the totality of it's harm. The feeling that no one can possibly understand what this is like.  

I get so ashamed of myself and worried about the sickness of it all when I realize there are parts of me that would willingly suffer more of the abuse just to keep from feeling this pain and sense of complete loss. It's as if the adult in me loses all strength to help the child that is clinging to his feet as he walks out of my life.

Yesterday I had some shopping I had to do.  As I was leaving the store, just infront of me was a little girl being held by a young woman I assumed was her mother. The child was having a complete "meltdown" over something she wanted in the store and her mother would not let her have.  I would say the child was about 5 years old.  She was screaming at the top of her lungs, throwing her whole body around in her mother's arms.  

My car was parked in the same direction as they were so I was behind them in the parking lot.  The child kept screaming at the top of her lungs and at one point the young mother tried to gently hold her close and calm her, but she would have none of it.  The child then began to hit the young mother with her fists as she was being held.

The poor young mother was holding the little girl, struggling with her and trying to hold on to packages. I asked if she would like some help, and she said yes with great relief.

The young mother was the child's sister, not her mother. The little girl had run away from her in the store and so a gift she had told she could have was taken away which started the drama.

After quite a struggle we got the little girl into the car seat, with me trying to offer some sense of calmness to the whole situation.  The older sister had done such a good job of trying to handle the child and she was so stressed and distraught you could see she about to start crying herself. I offered a hug to the sister which she gladly accepted.  The little girl now secured in her car seat looked as if after a couple of more breaths she was going to fall fast asleep from the whole experience.

When I got into my car I started crying so hard. I realized later why...the tears were for the gentle patient way the older sister had handled the situation (something that never would have occurred in my childhood) and also for the child whose tears and screams felt like my own internal screams at the pain of my life and all of those years that now seem so waisted.

How I hope they are not waisted. It seems though that there have been so many times when I have said to myself... okay, this is really tough, but I have probably learned something important, and in the end the learning will be worth the experience, that I have a really hard time believing that anymore.  Too many times, over and over again the end result has just been more pain more agony.  

My internal prayers are mostly for this to be the last time.  A committment to living in depression if that's what it is going to take.  I just wish I felt stronger.  

Thanks for letting me talk out some of this pain. I think both of you ought to open a therapy practice on narcissism   Wouldn't that be a happy job?!  Hugs to you both.  Sally

[rosencrantz]

Too many times, over and over again the end result has just been more pain more agony.

I know Sally - that's exactly how I felt this time round, too.

To be honest, once I got over the worst bits (and they were worse than the worst bits ever!!!) it's been much bettter.  There's a sense of achieving something at last. And since today I really 'got it' about the shame issue, I feel that everything is opening up in front of me for miles ahead.

This definitely gives us the freedom to create something really worthwihle with other people so I'm sure you will trust again one day. Of course! it won't be the passionate all or nothing, up and down rollercoaster but it will be deeper and more enduring with an all round calm to it.  

'Charm' is definitely last season's model!!!  
R