Seesaw down - time to turn it around

[Gaining Strength]

I have been up and down.  At night when I lie down I try to imagine what it feels like to feel loved.  I think this could be very healing to be able to imagine what it would be like.  I am actually having a hard time doing that.

I suddenly realized last night that I have moved out of my "positive" mindset.  I want to return to that.  So I am starting a thread to help me focus. 

The absense of love is fear and I feel plenty of fear.

[camper]

This might be really stupid questions but...Don't you have any dear friends who love you?  What about a church?  Do you really not have anyone who loves you or do you just not see it?  I can't fathom not having anybody that truly loves me and cares about me.  How does it get to this?

We all love you from this board!  We hear your voice and understand(except for the above..and that would probably just be me).  We are all your dear friends.  Wouldn't it be great to all meet at the local coffee shop to chat!  This type of communication frustrates me sometimes.  Now, if you lived close to me, I'd invite you over to chat.  How about coming camping with me?  Wouldn't it me fun!  How can you say you don't know what it is like to be loved!  There is a God in heaven who created your inmost being and loves you!  He is just building character in you right now  

[cats paw]

Hi, Gaining Strength,

  I saw your reply on my post on reconciling beliefs, and I'll comment at a later time.  Is it possible that you're having a hard time imagining what it would be like to really love yourself?  That concept seems conceited, full of hubris, sacrilegious, New-Agey, like so much psychobabble- pick your name for the poison.  I swallow whatever draught seems to fit best with what failing I might have that I choose to beat myself up with.
 
  Sheesh- did I even make any sense?  I hope I'm not too far off base from what you might be trying to say.

Cat

[Gaining Strength]

Camper - Wouldn't it be great to all meet at the local coffee shop to chat!  Now, if you lived close to me, I'd invite you over to chat.  How about coming camping with me?    Now that sounds like fun.  I would love to get together and chat and I'm a great chatter.  But I'll give a brief explanation about what I'm talking about here.

I grew up with pseudo love.  "I love you" was said regularly but there was no there there.  My father is truly an N, not capable of empathy towards anyone else.  He is driven by rules and formalities.  He loved because you are suppose to love.  But that is not love - love is compassion and support and encouragement.  My mother is not mean but she has been diagnosed with N traits. She simply does not have empathy - sort of more in a clueless way.  She has real emotions for herself but not empathy.  She can see her own circumstances but not anyone else's.  My father cannot even see his own circumstances.

My late husband was far too wounded to love.  I figured that out way too late.  After his death I recognized his behavior as very much in line with BPD.  If I needed something he felt threatened.  In fact, my experience has been that when I am in the greatest need the people closest to me feel threatened.

As a young adult my life began to derail and I had no idea what was going on.  I was angry and bitter.  I soon found myself all alone with a small grouop of friends who were very decent people.  A year after my husband died I went through a very, very difficult time emotionally and one friend in the group abandoned me and convinced all the others to let go as well.  Then I really hit low.  4 or 5 years later I am crawling back.  I have just begun to generate loose relationships that could become friendships. 

But honestly, I have never really experienced the sensation of being loved just to be loved, where the next mistake will not be held over my head.  That is what the fear is - fear of ridicule from those closest, fear of abandonment when the need is so great.  It is a difficult place to come back from.  I am doing it but of course it has its ups and downs.  I am so thankful that I have this place to come and lay out my lows and not have the fear of having it help over my head, of having it brought up to me in a vicious, demeaning way later.  That is what I have experienced from those who "love" me in the past.

Cats paw, I think we learn to love as we are loved.  It is very difficult to learn to love myself ex nihlo.  I of course work towards that goal.  That is exactly what I am working on at night as I try to imagine what it feels like to be loved and encouraged.  I do not have a goal of beating myself up but the opposite, to learn to nurture myself.  That is my goal. 

Camper and Cats Paw - Thanks for your questions and concern. - GS

[reallyME]

GS,

I'm going to pose a personal view here on this "being loved" topic.

If a person believes that "love" means he/she will not be corrected or that a mistake won't be confronted, that is not love either.  Love is a thing of balance.

I love and care about the person I mentor, but she would tell you, I AM TOUGH on  her.  I do not let her continue to live in patterns that have kept her hindered in her life.  That sometimes means correcting her grammar or questioning something she is thinking about doing.  As a result of this accountability, she has grown a LOT!

Part of love means to expect the people around  you to grow in maturity.  This means that they need to start letting go of their defenses, walls, excuses, etc.  It takes a lot of patience for a mentor to walk through this with a person, but honestly, it is something that is life-changing for both people.

Love also means having those times of talking on the phone, laughing, getting together for Chinese Food, going on picnics, crying on shoulders, and some of the more "romanticized" expressions of the word.

It is such a wonderful thing to love and be loved, when it's the REAL thing in BALANCE.

~Laura

[pennyplant]

I also was not taught about love by my parents.  I do have a natural capacity for it though.  When I had my first son, I made the mistake of thinking that I would show love by "raising" him, "molding" him, helping him to become who he would be as I saw him.

It took awhile but now I see that part of loving my children and really anyone, is learn that they are already formed and complete and through the bond of love, you will be discovering this person, discovering your relationship, and discovering yourself along the way.  It has to do with respect of the other person and approaching them where they are at from where you are at.  Ideally, each person will be safe to be themselves in such a relationship.

I have come to this approach through a lot of reading, studying, and observing.  I still have a ways to go.

Pennyplant

[Gaining Strength]

That is so beautifully put Pennyplant.

[cats paw]

Hello, Gaining Strength-

  I didn't have it as a goal to beat up on myself, either, but at one time I thought that's what price I had to pay for not being what my parents would have wanted.   I thought I was trying to help myself be better, to continue what my parents started.
 
  I did have love from my grandparents, what seemed then, and still seems now, as the kind of love that saved me.

  GS, I just hope I didn't cause you any further pain in my clumsy attempt to explain my difficulty with the phrase "You've got to love yourself".  I appreciate your explaining your thoughts a bit further.  So as I read what you first wrote, along with your second post, I think I see that DOH, I must have been overstating the obvious with my question.
  I took it as you imagining being loved by someone else, and I do think it could be very healing.  Is it similar to those who talk about learning to "reparent"yourself as an adult? 
 
  In any case, thank you for your graciousness in the face of my sincere, but clumsy attempt at expression after being moved by reading your opening post.

cats paw

[Gaining Strength]

Cats paw - I didn't find your post clumsy in any fashion.  In this strange world of Nism I think nothing can be too obvious. -GS

[Overcomer]

Hey G S  I have had my share of ups and downs lately too.  I have been sick and tired and angry and, well you know.  So tonight my h drug me to a Peter Frampton Concert.  I had so much fun.  I had goose bumps as it made me go back in time to a much happier place.  Go do something that reminds you of a happier time.  Get an Ipod And download all your favorite old tunes!  Thinking of ya and praying for soon.

[Gaining Strength]

I always get something from your posts CB and this time it was a lifeline when I didn't even know I needed a lifeline.

Last night I had a lengthy and very clear dream.  There was planning and a journey and getting ready for transition.  Part of what was in it was my late husband and his adult disfunctional son.   I was working on a budget and he was out of town.  His son was being slothful - spending money, not helpiing, not working.  I didn't know where my husband was, nor when he was coming back.  I couldn't decide whether to call or not.  When I did there was a fight over calling - why it had taken so long, who had called and on and on, before the subject of spending could even be broached.  I calmly avoided the fight and saw that it was a defensive step to avoid the discussion of his son's slothfulness.  It was a terrible place to be.  When I awoke I realized that I have been in that place my entire life.  I saw how this dream grew out of an experience I had yesterday - it had to do with trying my whole life to make silk out of a sow's ear while living in a silk world but only having sow's ear resources.  There is not fit for such a life.

CB, I see how I am making progress and am thankful.  I am also thankful to have your encouragement and I am especially thankful that I can lay down my burdens here because that is what I have never had - a place to lay them down and have someone say to me that it will be alright.  It really does help make it allright.  I have lived in such craziness and still do.  I think I have a chance to make it out of this but I have to work hard at it and I don't have access to the same drive that I once did.  I am definitely more fragile than I used to be.

I am so thankful for your comments CB.  I really can't say it enough.  This kind of encouragement really does help spur me forward because I believe there is something for me. - thanks with all my heart - GS

[axa]

If I needed something he felt threatned.

Boy do i know this one.  I remember saying to him that all I had to say was "I want..." and it enraged him.  I think because he felt he was the great giver(WHAT) my asking for anything shattered his image of himself.  He would give when HE DECIDED it was appropriate and also what HE WANTED.  To say I need or I want to an N shatters their perfect image of themselves.  It is all so dammed sad.

About needing and wanting now I have come to realise that only I can give myself what I need really.  I struggle with this because it does not come easy.  The comment on all of us being alone I believe is so true.  We spend our lives being busy and staying away from that aloneness and many people manage to not face it but it is a fact. 

The more I understand that I am alone the less I look to others to care for me.  Also the less expectations I have, so when something good or nice happens that is wonderful and if it does not its ok also.  I try and stay with this truth because I believe it will keep me safe dealing with this reality.

I have received much support from this board, as have many.  I feel heard on this board whereas in my REAL life I rarely do but at the end of the day I turn off my computer and am alone.  what I have learned from this is that alone is ok.  It is not the most exciting place but it is ok and it is safe.  When I venture out into the world I do so with this awareness and in truth events do not have the same impact on me.  I connect with people without expectation so there is so little disappointment. 

A consequence of this is that there is less highs and less lows and for someone who i believe was addicted in some way to the drama this creates a struggle but I am staying with it.

Today I felt sad, I know it is my sadness and I considered how I could acknowledge it and move from it.  So I bought some seeds and will plant them this afternoon because that always makes me feel good.  I am taking responsiblity for my sadness and not waiting for someone to come along and disguise it for me.

Rambilng a bit...

axa

[Margo]

Camper - Wouldn't it be great to all meet at the local coffee shop to chat!  Now, if you lived close to me, I'd invite you over to chat.  How about coming camping with me?    Now that sounds like fun.  I would love to get together and chat and I'm a great chatter.  But I'll give a brief explanation about what I'm talking about here.

I grew up with pseudo love.  "I love you" was said regularly but there was no there there.  My father is truly an N, not capable of empathy towards anyone else.  He is driven by rules and formalities.  He loved because you are suppose to love.  But that is not love - love is compassion and support and encouragement.  My mother is not mean but she has been diagnosed with N traits. She simply does not have empathy - sort of more in a clueless way.  She has real emotions for herself but not empathy.  She can see her own circumstances but not anyone else's.  My father cannot even see his own circumstances.

My late husband was far too wounded to love.  I figured that out way too late.  After his death I recognized his behavior as very much in line with BPD.  If I needed something he felt threatened.  In fact, my experience has been that when I am in the greatest need the people closest to me feel threatened.

As a young adult my life began to derail and I had no idea what was going on.  I was angry and bitter.  I soon found myself all alone with a small grouop of friends who were very decent people.  A year after my husband died I went through a very, very difficult time emotionally and one friend in the group abandoned me and convinced all the others to let go as well.  Then I really hit low.  4 or 5 years later I am crawling back.  I have just begun to generate loose relationships that could become friendships. 

But honestly, I have never really experienced the sensation of being loved just to be loved, where the next mistake will not be held over my head.  That is what the fear is - fear of ridicule from those closest, fear of abandonment when the need is so great.  It is a difficult place to come back from.  I am doing it but of course it has its ups and downs.  I am so thankful that I have this place to come and lay out my lows and not have the fear of having it help over my head, of having it brought up to me in a vicious, demeaning way later.  That is what I have experienced from those who "love" me in the past.

Cats paw, I think we learn to love as we are loved.  It is very difficult to learn to love myself ex nihlo.  I of course work towards that goal.  That is exactly what I am working on at night as I try to imagine what it feels like to be loved and encouraged.  I do not have a goal of beating myself up but the opposite, to learn to nurture myself.  That is my goal. 

Camper and Cats Paw - Thanks for your questions and concern. - GS

Your post reminds me of what a good friend told me years ago.... that we all need SOMEBODY who knows everything about us, good bad and awful.... and still loves and accepts us.  We need to feel understood..... even if we aren't always validated or agreed with..... and still be OK as we are. 

You are missing that person in your life.  I should think that you'd find a few here that would be able to connect with you and understand you well enough that you could feel safe and embraced.... not fear being abandoned?  While continueing to work on cultivating that kind of relationship in your area, as well? 

Keep in mind..... one of the very best things about friendship is...... being able to hear someone's honest truth.  That's a gift if it's coming from a place without judgement or ulterior motives, isn't it?  You have lot's of opportunities to be heard and understood here, at the very least.  I feel so much support and warmth here. 

I've been posting on a parenting debate board for 6 years and...... I have very close friends.  I depend on them in ways that I can honestly describe as enduring relationships I rely on.  This board offers that to us, as well.... dont'cha think?  Margo

[Gaining Strength]

Boy Axa - you really describe so perfectly my experience of an N.  It is actually unbelievable that a person can really be that way.
To say I need or I want to an N shatters their perfect image of themselves. How bizarre is that.  My first husband told me in front of a therapist that he wouldn't do things for me if I asked.  Hello!

I marvel at the clarity you have developed.  What singularity!  What clarity!  I so admire your abilty to see straight through to the aloneness of it all and be comfortable with it.

Margo - that we all need SOMEBODY who knows everything about us, good bad and awful.... and still loves and accepts us.

Amen sister, Amen.  I definitely get some of that here, Alleluia. 

you've piqued my curiousity - what kind of things to you discuss on the parenting debate board.  It sounds so interesting. - GS

[axa]

GS

"Just because I know what you want does not mean I wil give it to you" quote XN.

It was a constant game of withholding.  I recognised a pattern early on with XN.  I would say I want something, he would get angry, I would get upset and withdraw and then he would give me what I wanted.  The roles became clear to me.  I was the sad bewildered child who was needy and he was the knight in shining armour who rescued me.  It made him feel great.  After a while I would not go into my sad needy place and he was left with no one to give him the high of being the rescuerer.........then the sh.t really hit the fan.  I stopped playing by his rules.  The games could not continue.

Alone is the best place I have been for a long time GS.  I was terrified of it, thought it would be terrible and that is what kept me in with XN for longer than I should.  The advantage of staying so long for me was that I knew there could be no place worse than with him.  The lonliness of the relationship was destroying me.  My friends and family had backed off because they had made their feelings clear about him and so I had no where to go with my difficulties about him.  If I would tell anyone about him their response was "But he is mad".  This made me look at what I was doing with a madman. 

Each day I acknowledge my gratitude to myself that I had the strength to leave.  He is being drowned in supply right now and that is what he wants.  I dont suppose he hardly remembers my name.  Guess I am one of the lucky ones here that I dont have any reason for contact with him.

axa