Author Topic: What is the Best Possible Outcome Here?  (Read 1884 times)

Confounded

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What is the Best Possible Outcome Here?
« on: May 07, 2007, 03:57:05 PM »
I want to believe that things can turn out well here.  But I have serious doubts.  I would appreciate any input from a more informed standpoint than mine.

My H (husband) has N tendencies (per our prior counselor, when I asked him flat out, "What IS this?  This need to maintain that he is absolutely right, even when that clearly is not the case?").

H has made some progress in getting used to the idea that sometimes people may correct him.  He is often fine with it now, and even makes self-deprecating remarks (I think that this is a sign of a secure adult, able to admit fault and even laugh about it, confident that one mistake doesn't make him a worthless person).  I can act like an idiot at times (ever forget why you went out to the garage in the first place?  what were you looking for?  hmmmmm...).  But I know that doesn't make me stupid.  If you can help or correct me, you've done me a favor, and I will appreciate you all the more for it. 

Everything goes along well for a while.  But I always know that H can't go more than 10 days or so (I have just started tracking this in Excel to see of the pattern is regular) without blowing up over some issue.  Either I'm not managing our schedule to his liking, or I'm giving him "attitude" (that is generally me being impatient when he doesn't know something that I've told him several times, or when I tell him that something needs to be done a certain way), or I yell at my kids (when he's out of town I do this less, partly because I'm more calm, and partly because I refuse to be controlled by his anger), or I do something else that he doesn't like, and he flares anger.

For a time, he used to grab or hit me, but that was stopped by legal intervention. He no longer uses force to try to make me comply with his edicts.  However, I find that the amount of anxiety that I experience in anticipation of his N rage, and then the stress of being around his N rage when he blows up, hearing myself described as the ultimate bad person, the cause of all problems, watching him change into a man who looks and acts like something of a monster, is very toxic.  It's like nuclear radiation.  Not what I wanted in this marriage that I thought was going to be so great.

I want to be encouraged by his progress, and I am willing to work to get things to go well.  But some of the sources I have found say that the only way to deal with an N is to flatter him, never correct, always acquiesce, and be ready to just ignore his outbursts.  H's mother advised that she just ignored his dad when his temper flared.  She said that there was no point in talking with H's dad when he was angry.  I feel that this type of treatment essentially patronizes the man.  The message is, "You're such a nut that I can't talk to you.  A normal person can discuss an issue, even if he or she is at fault.  But you're abnormal, and you can't do this."  On the other hand, I recall a book about dealing with men called The Total Woman, and that's the essential message.  Stroke their egos, let them be right, that's what they need, and it will be worth it in the end.  This all seems very retro.

H and I are both MBAs.  I thought that we would just live happily ever after, as peers.  But it's a mess.  He's a self-described "Regular Guy."  I'm a bit of a nerd in cashmere(he calls me "Mensa Girl" when he's mad at me, although who knows why, since it doesn't bother me).  If I roll my eyes when he can't keep up (is he even trying?  does he have to try, if he can convince himself that his random, lackluster effort is a just perfect?), he goes ballistic.  Once I even went to him with a correction just to push his button and watch him dance (just like one of those dolls they sell at Halloween that dances to The Monster Mash).  It was easy, and funny.  Just walk into the room, tell him he did something wrong, and watch him freak out.  I have a tape recording of one of his rants, and when I play it back I LOL.  It's so ridiculous that it's funny.  Yes, I can laugh about it.  But it still stresses me out.  It's like laughing about a serious illness, to lighten up a grim situation.

Anyway, bottom line, I'm afraid to leave him since he seems to be making progress (he would not admit this, since he was already perfect in the first place).  But I'm afraid to stay because his anger is so stressful and I feel like I'm married to a crazy person.  Sometimes I think back to other men I've dated, known in school, at work, socially, or in my own family, etc., and I find that I think that most of them seem a bit weird.  Some lie.  Some cheat.  Some do both (e.g., my X).  Some are delusional (e.g., my H).  Some just say things that make no sense.  I consider that if I can only think of two men I have known in my whole life (both are engineers) who do not seem to be off in some way (and maybe they are, but I just don't know them well enough to realize it - who knows what they do behind closed doors), then maybe weird is actually normal.

I find myself thinking about H's horrible diet (nothing can hurt him he says, except Kryptonite), and wondering how long it will be before it kills him.  Nine days out of ten he seems pretty much okay.  Then on that 10th day, he's angry and such a monster that I just want him to be gone from my life.  This cyclical pattern is probably old news to some of you.  I am completely conflicted and I have no idea what to do to make matters better.  It's all so ironic, since his behavior seems to be based on a need for power and admiration, yet it gives me so much power to control his behavior through my actions toward him, and to a very large degree I have lost respect for him. 

I take the vows of marriage seriously, and I am loath to break them (does this not qualify under the "In sickness and in health" clause?).  But I'm not sure I can find my way out of this mess.  Black is white and white is black.  I don't know whether to go forward or turn back.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 08:00:01 PM by Confounded »

Hopalong

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Re: What is the Best Possible Outcome Here?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2007, 04:52:22 PM »
Hi Confounded,
This is a terribly painful chapter for you. I think you don't want to live with abuse, 1 in 10 days or even once a month. But it doesn't sound as though either you, or he, have much control over the way you approach each other. He explodes, and you criticize and keep score. It sounds miserable.

I can't recall the title but remember once reading a very good book about Should I Stay or Should I Go? It introduced some objectivity into my extreme swings around the issue.

I believe you have no children with this man, is that right?

And as to the vow of marriage...I've been divorced twice and the second time just smashed my self-image. It took a long time for me to forgive myself for breaking my vow. But in time, I came to realize that my fidelity to that formula was capitulating to what I now believe is a twisted promise, a setup for misery and stagnation.

If I ever marry again, it will be with the most careful ceremony, that honors what we intend but also realistically acknowledges that life does change and if that comes, I will imprison neither him nor myself.

Some relationships bring out the worst in each person. Some chemitries are fatally toxic.

I do urge you to find a caring, wise counselor and dive in. Your own anger could poison you as well as his. And a collapse into not caring about yourself enough to forge a serene and sane life is the same.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Margo

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Re: What is the Best Possible Outcome Here?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2007, 07:12:32 AM »
I want to believe that things can turn out well here.  But I have serious doubts.  I would appreciate any input from a more informed standpoint than mine.

My H (husband) has N tendencies (per our prior counselor, when I asked him flat out, "What IS this?  This need to maintain that he is absolutely right, even when that clearly is not the case?").

H has made some progress in getting used to the idea that sometimes people may correct him.  He is often fine with it now, and even makes self-deprecating remarks (I think that this is a sign of a secure adult, able to admit fault and even laugh about it, confident that one mistake doesn't make him a worthless person).  I can act like an idiot at times (ever forget why you went out to the garage in the first place?  what were you looking for?  hmmmmm...).  But I know that doesn't make me stupid.  If you can help or correct me, you've done me a favor, and I will appreciate you all the more for it. 

Everything goes along well for a while.  But I always know that H can't go more than 10 days or so (I have just started tracking this in Excel to see of the pattern is regular) without blowing up over some issue.  Either I'm not managing our schedule to his liking, or I'm giving him "attitude" (that is generally me being impatient when he doesn't know something that I've told him several times, or when I tell him that something needs to be done a certain way), or I yell at my kids (when he's out of town I do this less, partly because I'm more calm, and partly because I refuse to be controlled by his anger), or I do something else that he doesn't like, and he flares anger.

For a time, he used to grab or hit me, but that was stopped by legal intervention. He no longer uses force to try to make me comply with his edicts.  However, I find that the amount of anxiety that I experience in anticipation of his N rage, and then the stress of being around his N rage when he blows up, hearing myself described as the ultimate bad person, the cause of all problems, watching him change into a man who looks and acts like something of a monster, is very toxic.  It's like nuclear radiation.  Not what I wanted in this marriage that I thought was going to be so great.

I want to be encouraged by his progress, and I am willing to work to get things to go well.  But some of the sources I have found say that the only way to deal with an N is to flatter him, never correct, always acquiesce, and be ready to just ignore his outbursts.  H's mother advised that she just ignored his dad when his temper flared.  She said that there was no point in talking with H's dad when he was angry.  I feel that this type of treatment essentially patronizes the man.  The message is, "You're such a nut that I can't talk to you.  A normal person can discuss an issue, even if he or she is at fault.  But you're abnormal, and you can't do this."  On the other hand, I recall a book about dealing with men called The Total Woman, and that's the essential message.  Stroke their egos, let them be right, that's what they need, and it will be worth it in the end.  This all seems very retro.

H and I are both MBAs.  I thought that we would just live happily ever after, as peers.  But it's a mess.  He's a self-described "Regular Guy."  I'm a bit of a nerd in cashmere(he calls me "Mensa Girl" when he's mad at me, although who knows why, since it doesn't bother me).  If I roll my eyes when he can't keep up (is he even trying?  does he have to try, if he can convince himself that his random, lackluster effort is a just perfect?), he goes ballistic.  Once I even went to him with a correction just to push his button and watch him dance (just like one of those dolls they sell at Halloween that dances to The Monster Mash).  It was easy, and funny.  Just walk into the room, tell him he did something wrong, and watch him freak out.  I have a tape recording of one of his rants, and when I play it back I LOL.  It's so ridiculous that it's funny.  Yes, I can laugh about it.  But it still stresses me out.  It's like laughing about a serious illness, to lighten up a grim situation.

Anyway, bottom line, I'm afraid to leave him since he seems to be making progress (he would not admit this, since he was already perfect in the first place).  But I'm afraid to stay because his anger is so stressful and I feel like I'm married to a crazy person.  Sometimes I think back to other men I've dated, known in school, at work, socially, or in my own family, etc., and I find that I think that most of them seem a bit weird.  Some lie.  Some cheat.  Some do both (e.g., my X).  Some are delusional (e.g., my H).  Some just say things that make no sense.  I consider that if I can only think of two men I have known in my whole life (both are engineers) who do not seem to be off in some way (and maybe they are, but I just don't know them well enough to realize it - who knows what they do behind closed doors), then maybe weird is actually normal.

I find myself thinking about H's horrible diet (nothing can hurt him he says, except Kryptonite), and wondering how long it will be before it kills him.  Nine days out of ten he seems pretty much okay.  Then on that 10th day, he's angry and such a monster that I just want him to be gone from my life.  This cyclical pattern is probably old news to some of you.  I am completely conflicted and I have no idea what to do to make matters better.  It's all so ironic, since his behavior seems to be based on a need for power and admiration, yet it gives me so much power to control his behavior through my actions toward him, and to a very large degree I have lost respect for him. 

I take the vows of marriage seriously, and I am loath to break them (does this not qualify under the "In sickness and in health" clause?).  But I'm not sure I can find my way out of this mess.  Black is white and white is black.  I don't know whether to go forward or turn back.

Sorry I'm responding so late.... but here's my opinion.

I think this is a terrible place for you to live, emotionally.  Mostly because I identify with the feeling of anxiety and waiting for the other shoe to fall.  Secondly.... I think this is an impossible place for your children to live.

You may feel as though he's making progress but....... since the legal intervention I'm guessing this is just the next act for him.  It's always going to be about control and controlling you.  Even if you have the feeling, every once in a while, that you can control him.  You can't.  Eventually..... after you've gained some distance, I think you'll see that you never had a hope of getting along with this man and that you're glad to be away from the games and stress.  I know your children will be.  Good luck.
Margo

poetprose

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Re: What is the Best Possible Outcome Here?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2007, 07:43:22 AM »
Anyway, bottom line, I'm afraid to leave him since he seems to be making progress (he would not admit this, since he was already perfect in the first place).  But I'm afraid to stay because his anger is so stressful and I feel like I'm married to a crazy person.  Sometimes I think back to other men I've dated, known in school, at work, socially, or in my own family, etc., and I find that I think that most of them seem a bit weird.  Some lie.  Some cheat.  Some do both (e.g., my X).  Some are delusional (e.g., my H).  Some just say things that make no sense.  I consider that if I can only think of two men I have known in my whole life (both are engineers) who do not seem to be off in some way (and maybe they are, but I just don't know them well enough to realize it - who knows what they do behind closed doors), then maybe weird is actually normal.

I find myself thinking about H's horrible diet (nothing can hurt him he says, except Kryptonite), and wondering how long it will be before it kills him.  Nine days out of ten he seems pretty much okay.  Then on that 10th day, he's angry and such a monster that I just want him to be gone from my life.  This cyclical pattern is probably old news to some of you.  I am completely conflicted and I have no idea what to do to make matters better.  It's all so ironic, since his behavior seems to be based on a need for power and admiration, yet it gives me so much power to control his behavior through my actions toward him, and to a very large degree I have lost respect for him. 

I take the vows of marriage seriously, and I am loath to break them (does this not qualify under the "In sickness and in health" clause?).  But I'm not sure I can find my way out of this mess.  Black is white and white is black.  I don't know whether to go forward or turn back.


"Afraid to leave , afraid to stay,": classic thinking of abuse, it is like you are locked down , so ask yourself, what is the real reason you are staying, is it because you feel it is your responsibility to get him well? in that if you leave you fear his recovery will be halted? And honestly if he really wanted to get well in recovery, then *he* will regardless of wether or not your are with him, because his recovery of getting well , was and is and always will be *HIS* responsibility , not yours

On the other side of the coin I respect your taking your vows seriiously , "In sickness and in health", and you can temporarily seperate, this is not divorce , it is setting up bounderies for your* mental and physical and spiritual , emotional safety and protection

so perhaps instead of looking at it in terms of " forward or back", how about loving from a sideline?  then when things get better you can re-enter into the marriage contract with safer footing

just a thought

camper

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Re: What is the Best Possible Outcome Here?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2007, 08:41:58 AM »
What about setting up a boundary with him through your counselor?  He has these episodes because he can.  You have a right to just walk out during an outburst.  What if you attached a consequence to it?  Would it help him to make progress much faster?  Change takes a long time.  We also like to settle back into our old habits.  I applaud you for wanting to stay and work it out.  I am also not going to give up on my H so easy.  I have been to a few counselors trying to fix me, only to find out, it is him.  After 13 years, only the last two have I been clued into what it really going on.  I was so angry that he has been "getting away" with his poor conduct.  I finally am taking a stand and calling him on his twisting of my words.  He still doesn't get it though.  I try and try and he just can't see it.  I am paying more attention to what is going on around me so when I have to take a stand, I clearly remember what was said.  Just by the confidence in my voice, he knows he can't get away with his crap.  He is so good at working his way out of his lies.  I let it at that though.  there comes a time to just stop.  The power I have gained over him is to remain very calm and ask him why he......  Most of the time I am asking him why he just got so defensive.  If I remain calm, it unnerves him.  Then I smile and excuse his actions.  He loves to get me worked up but it doesn't work very much anymore.

Help your H to see his family of origin issues.  You won't be able to just point fingers at him though.  Do your FOO also.  I helped my H to know why he is like he is.  He has it in his head, now he has to figure out what to do with it. 

Bring the outburst situations to your therapist and talk about them.  You are so right when you said:
Quote
A normal person can discuss an issue, even if he or she is at fault.  But you're abnormal, and you can't do this
  With a therapist, you could discuss an issue. 

You have alot going for you:  A therapist, your H in the sessions, awareness of his N tendencies.  Keep working with your therapist.  Tell the T that you want to set a goal of no angry outbursts.  Figure out a way to talk through it.  It may take forever, but keep trying.

CB123

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Re: What is the Best Possible Outcome Here?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2007, 08:49:49 AM »
Camper,

It's good to "see" you again! 

CB
When they are older and telling their own children about their grandmother, they will be able to say that she stood in the storm, and when the wind did not blow her way -- and it surely has not -- she adjusted her sails.  Elizabeth Edwards 2010

Confounded

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Re: What is the Best Possible Outcome Here?
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2007, 01:30:15 PM »
I have to say that it feels really good to know that I am not alone as I try to figure this out, and do what I can to get the best outcome.  My mouth hangs open at times as I read about your situations and recognize the similarities to what I experience. 

It is such a relief to realize that there is no need to spend my time reacting to these raging outbursts.  I need to just walk away.  This has seemed to me previously to have been giving in to his anger, allowing myself to be intimidated into acquiescence.  But I think I need to just look at my time as being my most precious asset, and one that I don't want to waste. 

The pain that I have felt has been devastating at times.  But it has all been the result of my taking his statements seriously, when in fact it is as if he rages against that which he hallucinates.  Any comment about anything that requires our attention, a correction, analysis, or any kind of effort whatsoever on his part, is potentially an affront.  It has an embedded message that he's not ______________ (fill in the blank... he's not doing enough, not smart enough, not focused enough, not something enough).  That is huge for him, and he rails against it.

The more he tries to insist that he is always right, the less I respect him, and the more insulted he becomes.  We have many minor disagreements in which I show signs of impatience with him, and that really "frosts" him.  I get so tired of explaining things to him that I think are pretty obvious, and if I've already explained it repeatedly, I feel that it's just not fair to take so much time out of the schedule for multiple discussions of things that aren't up for debate. My impatience is real.

I know this is vague.   Here's an example.  He and his late first wife planted many things in the yard that died.  A few years ago, when he and I went to replace a dead tree, I took the wrapping off the rootball of the new tree.  He got peeved at me for "making extra work" when I removed the heavy wrapping material.  I told him that getting the rootball in touch with the surrounding soil is what we needed to do.  It became a whole big issue.  He then proceeded to start to drag the dead tree through an area where we had just planted annuals.  I urgently said, "No! You have to take that around!"  He got really mad.  I was shocked to see that he had no idea how to do things so that he didn't wreck his own work, and he also had no experience with being told by someone else what to do.

Eventually, I concluded that his first wife was rather silly (I won't go into the details, but I suspect that her own foolishness around toxic chemicals resulted in her death).  The final item that led to this conclusion was a redbud tree.  Its roots spring up out of the yard in a knotted mass.  I examined it and found that they had planted it with the rootball still wrapped in nylon mesh.  But she didn't argue with him and they finished projects really fast.  So I'm a bad wife.  My efforts to make him see that if you finish fast, but half your plants die, so you have to go buy more, dig up the dead ones, and do the whole planting project again, you cost yourself lots of extra of time and money.  Duh.  He's an MBA.  This is called "rework" and it is the bane of success.  So I think he should be able to get this. 

Over a period of years, I think that he has gotten used to the idea that I know what I'm doing, or at least that I'm not going to cave on this.  But he constantly complains about how long it take me to do things (do things correctly that is, so they won't have to be redone later, but that's not where his mind goes with this).  I try to make him stop saying this "You take so long, with all your extra steps."  It has gotten to the point where I say very blunt things about him and his late wife and how much time and money they wasted doing things fast and wrong.  But I still have to hear myself denigrated over this old issue. 

This whining distracts me from getting things done as fast as I could otherwise (i.e., he works against his own objective).  It sucks so much time out of my life! Yet I am aware that he thinks that my "extra steps" are sucking time out of his life.  I let him know that if he has a specific suggestion about a way to make a project shorter I'm listening.  I always try to cut any corner that doesn't matter now.  I have tried to incorporate his comments, to the extent that they are helpful.  His mother, and those of you who deal with this same stuff, all say, "Ignore him."  I am not very good at ignoring people.  I feel that it is the ultimate insult.  But so be it.  I have to do it.  Otherwise, it goes on longer.   

Although pretty much any situation can become a major problem for him, at times he acts like a normal person and says something like what I might say, "I know we've talked about this before.  But I have no idea where we left it.  So can you please bring me up to speed again, so that I can answer you intelligently?"  The fact that he is at times able to act quite normal now, and see the humor in our human failings, makes me think that our progress is a very real thing.  We have to crawl before we toddle, then walk, then run.  It is very disappointing to know that I am married to someone who is a toddler in this area of emotional development.  But I am disappointed in myself as well, since I clearly see that I have been pretty slow in figuring out what has been going wrong here and and implementing effective strategies for change.

I relate completely to the idea that we have to get our kudos elsewhere.  Although he tries to praise now, sometimes it comes off as being sort of fake.  But he's trying, and I'm trying. 

The concept of monetary consequences also resonates with me.  I sent myself flowers recently, from him, to apologize.  His most recent blowup will be compensated with a jewelry purchase.  Nothing too big.  But something tangible that will make me smile.  It will also put him on notice that if he needs to apologize it WILL happen, one way or the other.

Thanks for your replies.  I am very interested in what you have figured out, and what's working for you in these situations.  It is clear to me that if I haven't cut and run by now, given that things were much worse previously, I'm not likely to do that.  I may think about it, dreaming of a different future, without him.  But it's just another way to waste time.  What I really need to do is think, plan, and act effectively.  I truly appreciate your help.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 01:36:55 PM by Confounded »