Death Isolation Meaningless Freedom

[Portia]

I read about therapy based on existential basics: that you may treat someone’s fear of four basic truths:

1. Death: I’m going to die
2. Isolation: I’m utterly alone in my head
3. Meaningless: Life is meaningless
4. Freedom: I have the freedom to do whatever I am able to do

Now I have a BIG problem with just one of those. Which one(s) do you (everyone) have problems with, if any?

[nightsong]

Portia,

All of them actually. Meaninglessness in particular. But I guess freedom is the really tricky one for us N-survivors - is that the important one for you?

I've been reading and re-reading Irvin Yalom's writings. Existential issues are the bottom line as far as I'm concerned, but it's hard to struggle with that as well as the ongoing stuff. Bless my new therapist, who is determined to replace all the negative parental rubbish in my head with kind, nurturing messages.  Then maybe I'll have the space to deal with the existential issues!

[rosencrantz]

I haven't come across this author before and that list doesn't really speak to me.  What am I missing?!  I seem to have a lot of opinions but this one has me stumped!!!

I've just checked Amazon and the author's website. Mostly I don't like reading therapy books anymore.  I get too enraged about my last therapist with feelings of 'See! That's what you were supposed to do.  I knew that and you didn't value me - you just felt threatened by me.  And then you turned me into your MOTHER, FGS!'  By which time I'm shouting in my head getting nowhere, overwhelmed by  feelings of hopelessness and despair at how much damage it did to my life!!  

Perhaps that's the 'I'm all alone in my head' truth?????

I feel more trapped by the 'I DON'T have the freedom to do what I want cos I'm not allowed to do it/can't actually do it' one.  Parent myself.  Become my own parent.  Do parenting better than my own parent; therapy better than my own therapist. But somewhere down the line I end up feeling/thinking/believing nothing is real - so what's the point. Just get on with it, survive.  Nothing matters. Nobody else seems to think that what I think is real so why should I.    

Sorry, I've probably completely missed the point but that's where it took me.

R

[Tokyojim]

Rosencrantz,

I think I understand what you mean.  Getting lost in psychobabble and methods of understanding and therapies can go in all sorts of directions and lead nowhere.  Some use these as ways of manipulation or obfuscation.  If you are feeling alone in your head or isolated, it is very likely a healthy reaction.  I really believe that too much thinking about one's own thoughts is usually unhealthy.  It sounds like your mind is maybe screaming for peace and relaxation.  That is a healthy sign to me!

[rosencrantz]

Sorry - you don't understand what I mean at all.  But I understand you all right.
R

[lynn]

Hi portia,

Although I am not particularly well read, I find value in existential beliefs.  I thought about your list for a while and  here's what I concluded:  

1. Death: I’m going to die.  
I am really okay with this.  Death is not a frightening concept for me.

2. Isolation: I’m utterly alone in my head
I worry about isolation.  Being married to an N has resulted in a high isolation level for many, many years.  With my recent separation from N, I am hoping that I have within me qualities to make friends and decrease my isolation.   I'm not confident in my ability to make a friend and be a friend.  I am not confident in my ability to love or be loved (or even to be lovable) I have felt so separated for so long.... and N told me thing that were wrong with me many times.  I suppose I feel as though I am cast aside and unworthy of real friends.  

3. Meaningless: Life is meaningless
For me, this ties closely to #2.  Meaning of life comes from the relationships we share in.

4. Freedom: I have the freedom to do whatever I am able to do
Absolutely.  I believe that we do have freedom to do whatever we are able.  I believe in choice and my ability to choose.  I take responsibility for choosing to stay in a N relationship.  I live this one.

These are my votes...  after reviewing what I just wrote, I suppose Isolation comes in first as biggest issue!  (portia, I look forward to hearing your opinions on the list later on)

lynn

[Portia]

Nightsong, you got it, freedom is the biggy for me. I know it – what it means, how to do it - but I don’t feel it. If only I could convince my heart that the world will not cave in if I follow what I wish for and that failure would be ok! Striving for perfection and procrastinating are too easy to carry on with. Idly thinking about the existential issues is just a diversion for me. Not sure I feel that the root of all problems lies in that list, but it’s interesting.

Rosencrantz, something silly. I don’t know if you’ve read ‘The Dice Man’ novel or if you haven’t that you’d even like it a little, but it’s a fine teenage book with more than a few laughs. Not serious at all and quite rude and vulgar, but just, well, fun in places (and boring in most). It might be about freedom. (I’m sure many who might read this will be rolling their eyes in horror at this childish suggestion! You have right of reply….) Click: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0006513905/qid=1081177137/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/026-9351931-3409237

Lynn, your views about isolation are interesting and I can understand how years of being ‘separate’ (yes?) in a partnership might lead you to feel isolated. Hmm. Why did you say “unworthy of real friends”? Sounds a bit like original sin! – unworthy? I wish you all the best in finding ‘real’ people who you can connect with, talk with, listen to and feel that they are, genuinely, interested in you just for being you, as opposed to what you can feed in them, or what they can use you for. You are worth it, just like the L’oreal adverts say (don’t those advertisers know how to get to us?). Speaking of which, have you treated yourself lately? You really ‘deserve’ to! And FWIW, I’m not very well read either, I only read what interests me. Life’s too short for reading stuff that bores the pants off you (even if it is cultural or erudite, if it’s baloney to you, it’s baloney, right?).

For me, death doesn’t keep me awake; meaning doesn’t matter that much: I decided to live and to continue experiencing. That’s enough in a way, I don’t need meaning too. Why do we need meaning? Isn’t life enough? I do feel that, as opposed to think it. Nightsong, hope you find meaning, or lose the need for it, whichever suits. Maybe I’ll suddenly start looking for it too, who knows?

Isolation refers I think to not being able to ever know directly what someone else is thinking or experiencing: like I can never be sure that what you see and call ‘blue’ is the same as what I see and call blue. Philosophical chat, doesn’t do much to help with real life unless you use it to stop worrying about what other people think about you (i.e. you’ll never know for sure and it’s bound to be wild if they do think about you). But I do accept that I am utterly alone and can never get inside another’s head completely! Maybe future science will get us closer?! Yuk, do we want that…

Thank you (for indulging me?) for your replies. P

[Gingerpeach]

Interesting thread with interesting responses.

I resonated most closely with Lynn in that of the four,  Isolation seems to be my issue.  Hell, I lurked here for two+ years before I could even bring myself to post !  I felt that I could watch, but not join.

Portia posed the question as being curious what other ACON's main issue was.  Portia said it was Freedom and Nightsong seemed to agree that this was definitely and issue for ACONs.  Since Lynn is the spouse of an N, as I am, I am  wondering if Isolation would be the "typical" response of an N spouse, as Freedom might be for an ACON.

Lynn, I understand your feeling unsure of being able to make a friend and be a friend. I too feel that very keenly.

Before I was with my NH, I had friends, good friends and I was also a good friend to them. But my time with NH changed that and changed me.  He isolated me from my friends and since I chose to stay with him, I ultimately betrayed them.

Now, on the other side of the N experience, I am less confident in myself, I feel guilt over the pain I inflicted on my friends.  I think that I don't trust myself enough yet, that I might risk hurting people again.  And also I don't trust anybody getting too close inside my head and heart because they might do what the N did.

The Isolation at the hands of an N is excruciating.  I miss my friends. I miss closeness. I miss feeling like I know where I fit in to the world, in place, time and people.  I am aware of these things and although I am working on it, it feels awkward now, separate,  whereas before it was an integral part  of me.

So,  I wonder if Isolation is the choice of those that have acquired an N rather than being born to one.  As the spouses of Ns at one time were N-less and have had the experience of non-Isolation, the Isolation is now very obvious and problematic.  

Whereas ACONs have had the N experience inside them from the beginning of their lives and were never allowed the Freedom to be themselves.  And now that they have that Freedom, they don't know what to do with it simply because they never had any experience with it.  Does this make sense to anyone else?  Or am I so Isolated inside my head that the Meaningless issue is kicking in?

It was your comment, Portia, on original sin that got me going.  It was so revealing.  I am thinking that that is what it might feel like for ACONs, "the sins of the fathers......" or mothers.  Is that what it is like?  I am sorry for your pain.....

But, keep thinking up these interesting topics, Portia. You really get me sweeping into those cobwebby corners !!

[Anonymous]

With my recent separation from N, I am hoping that I have within me qualities to make friends and decrease my isolation. I'm not confident in my ability to make a friend and be a friend. I am not confident in my ability to love or be loved (or even to be lovable) I have felt so separated for so long

oh Lynn, I want to tell you: you ARE loveable.
You're very loveable.
From everything you've posted I can tell that.
But I remember feeling unloveable too, and no amount of love bridged the gap until I learned to love myself.

How to love yourself? If you put 'learn to love yourself' in a  google search there's loads of ideas eg


There are many ways for us to love and to care for ourselves... The possibilities are infinite. One way to learn to love yourself is to act as if you already do (i.e., "Fake it till you make it"). An important way to love yourself is to nourish and care for your body: eat healthy foods and exercise regularly. You may want to "treat" yourself to things like a massage, a facial, a pedicure, or a gym membership. Taking breaks and having fun are important, as well. Whether alone, with a friend, or with a partner, you may want to have a night out on the town: go out for a nice dinner, go dancing, and/or attend the theater, a concert, the ballet, or a movie. If you tend to be a workaholic -- or if you are more a saver than a spender -- then perhaps it is time to take a well-deserved, long-overdue vacation. Of course, treating yourself does not need to involve great expense: you can take a bubble bath, eat dinner at home by candlelight, take a walk on the beach, swim in the ocean (those waters are very healing), or watch a sunset. Perhaps you enjoy taking time to paint or to write. These are just a few ideas... You can put your own imagination to work...
 
Another way to enhance self-love and self-esteem is to be aware of your self-talk (those things that you say to yourself inside your head). Speak to yourself in ways that are more kind, and less mean or abusive. Many of us have very harsh inner critics: When we make a mistake, this critical voice inside our head beats up on us, saying things like, "That was so stupid! ... I can't do anything right! ... What a loser!" We need to replace these negative messages with other, more positive ones. For example, "I made a mistake. That's okay: That is how I learn. I'll know better the next time." With awareness, over time, you can "catch yourself" when your self-talk is negative, and change the message to something more positive and "ego-enhancing."
 
Don't just "catch yourself being wrong." "Catch yourself being right." In other words, don't just catch the voice of your inner critic, and stop it from beating up on you. When you do something well, or when you find yourself saying the right things to yourself or to others, be sure to reward yourself: acknowledge yourself verbally, give yourself a pat on the back, or treat yourself to something special.
 
Yet another way you can learn to love yourself is by being in the practice of using positive affirmations. Take some time to come up with the qualities that you most want to embody. Choose about two or three to focus on for any one period of time. Then try this for at least a month: Repeat those qualities daily, telling yourself that you are those things, already. Whether or not you currently believe it, say it anyway... Again, "Fake it till you make it." For example, take time to tell yourself, each day, "I am happy and successful" or "I am beautiful and bright" or "I love my body: I feel healthy and in balance" or "I am loving, caring, and worthy of love" or "I am powerful and self-confident" ... whatever qualities you wish to be. You may want to write out these affirmations and post them someplace where you will see them regularly: on the bathroom mirror, on the refrigerator door, by the clock in your bedroom, atop your computer monitor, or somewhere in front of your desk at work. Even if, at first, you feel silly or uncomfortable repeating or reading these phrases, you may find that you grow into and become these qualities. You may even realize that you embodied them all along; you just had not realized it.
 
So, go ahead. Love yourself. Be good to yourself. Treat yourself well. Replenish yourself. You will discover that, the more you love yourself, the more you will be able to give love to others - and the more others will want to be around you and give back to you. This is a win-win situation. Loving yourself will ultimately benefit the lives of others you encounter, as well as your own life.
from Learning To Love Yourself
 
By Leslie Karen Lobell, M.A.

http://www.artofloving.com/love/loveyourself.htm

Take care of yourself.

[write]

oops that was me, write

[rosencrantz]

The Dice Man - now that's something I do connect with (and I shall continue to think more about those things I don't yet connect with!).

I read the Dice Man years ago - I lent it to my then boyfriend and he took it a little too seriously.  He left me on the roll of a die for another...man!!  

Teenagers?  Oh, no.  A fine book.  An upstanding book. Should be read by everyone.

But 'lighten up' 'take life as it comes'??  Not just now.  I was born to be serious.  The 'parentified' type.  Fortunately, I met a man who is even more 'parentified' than I so he makes me comfortable 'in my skin' as the French say!

Take care
R

[sjkravill]

On the topic of isolation and having aquired an N.
Before I met/married my H, I had lots of good friendships too.  
Part of the reason I don't really have them any more is that we moved 17 hours away.  Making new friends has been much more difficult than I expected it would be.  Partly because people here are more transient.  But also because I live a life that feels separate from the rest of the world.  I am a wife...  My H does not like being with other people.  So we don't have many mutual friends.  Most of my friends are not married,  or they have really conservative beliefs about marriage.  My old and new  friends who are married seem to have healthy marriages, and I am ashamed to talk about what is really going on in my marriage.  And I don't want to violate H's privacy or give him a bad reputation.
Only in the past month or so have I begun coming clean to some of my very good (old) friends.  Some have been understanding, some have not.  I have feelings of not wanting to burdon them repeatedly, because I just can't figure this out.  So, am still alone, and afraid of letting others in.

I don't think much about physical death consciously... However, death anxiety is ultimately what makes me want to get out of my marriage, right?  I am afraid of dying a spiritual death.

I will have to think more about freedom.  I like the thought of being free to choose my own way.  However, I am terrible at making decisions. I want to make everyone else happy; I want to do what's "right."  I think making "mistakes" causes me to experience death anxiety. I see how this is a "voiceless" issue.  We have learned to live for others... and then it is so difficult living/thinking/speaking for ourselves.  

Finally on loving one's self.  I think those (above) are good suggestions.  It's an uphill battle.  Lately I have found that while I would like my husband to love me for who I am, I don't need him too.  I think that's progress for me.  I have not yet gotten to the point of thinking, if he doesn't love me for who I am, then it is bad for me to be married to him, because I have still not found my voice, my freedom, my friends.  Not being controled (having freedom) would still make me feel unbearable death anxiety.  This idea of loving ones self seems like an appropriate addition, tieing the three together.

[Anonymous]

1. Death: I’m going to die
2. Isolation: I’m utterly alone in my head
3. Meaningless: Life is meaningless
4. Freedom: I have the freedom to do whatever I am able to do

I’m fascinated to see if ACONs are similar! P

Death, no. I've been aware of death most of my life. How I die may have it's issues, like I hope it ain't too damn painful or drawn out. In my sleep in old age please, or at least very quick with clean knickers on. I'm sure like every other issue I've ever had to deal with I'll fudge my way through okay when the time comes.

Isolation, no. I'm kind of drawn to it. I've had to make myself un-isolate. Besides, I enjoy most of what goes on in my head most of the time. I feel like I don't get enough time with myself so the isolation thing isn't an issue with me. Or maybe it is!   I may have read the question wrong.


Meaningless, no. Life never feels meaningless to me really. Not mine and not anyone elses either. I know I've made a positive difference in some people's lives and they in mine. Sometimes, I've had angry moments, I think some people should never have been born.   My mother for example. But then I think something made them that way and maybe try to work out what. And then that's meaningful because I've learnt something and and maybe I make a conscious decision to never have that effect on anybody. So that person who I made that judgment about suddenly became meaningful to me.  

Freedom, I guess is the one. At times I've felt I'd rather die than continue to be tormented and repressed by certain people in my life. Not being recognised as an equal human with equal rights is a real challenge to any human spirit. Having my freedom reduced or manipulated is extremely threatening for me. And I get mean.  

I have a friend who likes me to go to the same coffee shop with her for about an 2 hours every Saturday morning. One day I invited another friend along without asking my coffee shop friend's permission or informing her I'd invited someone else. It was very strange and strained the whole time, and I felt like I'd done something terribly wrong. This is a very petty level of freedom issues I realise, but the anxiety and internal conflict it caused in me was ridiculous.

I felt afterwards like I didn't have any rights when I attended coffee sessions. And then I realised I felt obligated to go. I hadn't kept in touch with myself and realised how bored I was with the whole weeekly ritual. Had I subconsciously wanted to get out of it and didn't know how? Did I self destruct the thing by taking a friend along??? blah blah blah? What a waste of life feeling guilty and threatened, but I was. The bottom line was I felt I no longer owned my Friday mornings, this other person did, and I didn't like that. No sirree Bob. Not one little bit.

But it took me ages to realise it. So freedom is the biggee with this little poster. Probably because I had so much of it deprived from me as a child that I demand every little bit I'm entitled to now, and can be quite annoyingly precious about it. I hope this translates in me to being just as precious in respect to other people's freedoms and rights. If so then it's all good learning and growth.

Guest

[Anonymous]

1. Death: I’m going to die
2. Isolation: I’m utterly alone in my head
3. Meaningless: Life is meaningless
4. Freedom: I have the freedom to do whatever I am able to do

I’m fascinated to see if ACONs are similar! P

The bottom line was I felt I no longer owned my Friday mornings, this other person did, and I didn't like that. No sirree Bob. Not one little bit.

Guest

It was my Saturday not Friday mornings, just to clear up a completely inconsistant and totally irrelevant point. (I'm a pain the arse for detail) And I learned something from that experience. Even well meaning, caring friends can appear to be sucking the marrow from your bones if you don't keep in touch with yourself.

She's still my friend and we still go for coffee, and I've had to learn to treat her with more respect and give her credit for being able to handle my being honest. I know I'm not there yet cause I still hate feeling like I've been mean.

When I realised I was mean to not let her know I wasn't enjoying it any more and that I was martyring, which doesn't give off a very pleasant aroma, and smells like week old socks, I realised once again, for the hundredth time (I'm a fast learner too hey) I owe it to my friends to be honest.

Plus I have to admit, I was actually the one responsible for that feeling I had of the marrow being sucked from my bones. She didn't force me to that coffee shop at gun point. I could have said no. Gee, talk about complicate a cheese sandwich.

Thanks Portia for providing these four points for discussion. It's been interesting reading the viewpoints from everyone.

Guest.

[lynn]

The Isolation at the hands of an N is excruciating. I miss my friends. I miss closeness. I miss feeling like I know where I fit in to the world, in place, time and people. I am aware of these things and although I am working on it, it feels awkward now, separate, whereas before it was an integral part of me.

So, I wonder if Isolation is the choice of those that have acquired an N rather than being born to one.

Gingerpeach, thank you for your kind words.  I couldn't agree with this statement more.  

But also because I live a life that feels separate from the rest of the world. I am a wife... My H does not like being with other people

Separate, separate... not fitting in place, time and people....that's how it feels.  Like there's something wrong with me that makes me not part of the group.  Not part of the whole.  And because I can't put my finger on it, it nags at me.  Shakes my confidence.  (my N did not like being with other people either.  He was extremely judgemental.)

The first great step has to be leaving the relationship.  Saying to Myself that I am okay.  Giving the transition time.  

Gingerpeach, maybe you're right about spouses of N feeling isolation most accutely.

with friendship,
lynn