If N feels threatened illogically & involuntarily, what can be done to help?

[Confounded]

I toss this out to you, many of whom know quite a lot about this. 

The realization that my H perceives much of what I say as being critical, even when it isn't intended that way, and builds up to anger over a period of days, with me being completely unaware of this process, has been a major revelation to me.  When he blows up over something minor, I am so shocked that I sometimes check to see if he's really serious.  Now I understand that this is cumulative. 

What can be done to reframe or otherwise help him see that just because I'm not singing his praises at the moment does not mean that I am against him?

[WRITE]

i don't think whatever you do it will stick, this is a chronically insecure person so it is the insecurity is the problem not the level of reassurance.

I have felt very insecure myself lately one way or another and I found it's not easy to pep-talk yourself and takes constant attention to quell the panic and paranoia.

If the person doesn't even see what's happening or see it as problematic there's not much you can do.

I find with my ex circular arguments work best, let him think he's 'won' when it's not important. Otherwise it goes on and on.

just because I'm not singing his praises at the moment does not mean that I am against him?

that's the thing with NPD, every action or perceived action is against him unless it's not only for him but exactly what he perceives as for him; so to someone else you could disagree and they could see 'it's for my own interest she doesn't flannel me' but he would see disrespect or treachery or even beign despised secretly.

My ex is convinced everyone really hates underneath him no matter how much reassurance he gets to the contrary. But that's ok- he goes about cultivating obnoxious responses until eventually they all will 

He has to rage

CBs right. If he's a rager it's a release, only when he's purged himself will he relax and feel okay again.

[mythreedots]

i dont know how to do this!!!
reading cb's reply made me want to scream..... i have known for a long time that he will never change, there is no winning, there is no peace, no kindness, tenderness, partnership, bonding, compassion......

it is like a cruel, twisted trick, i needed so much to be a part of... i thought i had found a place, i thought i was home... we both loved to spend time out doors and garden... with his dogs... but it's not real, it is his sick world. and u r right, if you say anything...even if asked, it had better be glowing approval and all sweetness... my voice has no soul here...

and it doesn't matter in the end how much i modify my behavior, my responses, my words, he twists everything i say and all my actions into negative, misunderstood acts of insanity, disloyalty, lies... it truly is insane... the contridictions, the irrational beliefs, the lies..

i keep waiting for the man that used to adore me, cuddle me... the man that said "If i ever start to take you for granted, tell me."
the man that said "remind me if i forget (which he does from one moment to the next) that this is the most fun i ever had in a relationship."  now i am studid, idiot, bitch, c word... liar, thief, i cannot do one thing right...

he wasn't real... i feel so sad for him, i feel sorry for him, but he IS NOT reachable, there is no "lost little heart" to rescue... i cant believe i feel so bad for him... he likes to be cruel... i swear... the insanity of his reasoning... the insanity of me trying to make any type of logical sense out of him... i have driven myself to the brink of sanity trying to understand his behavior, his inconsistant, convoluted conversations... which he actually cannot have a real conversation...

trying to get him to "love me" to "approve of me" again...

he has beat me
thrown me out of our home... at night.. in the cold... alone...no phone...no money...
and he gets mad because i wasn't home in bed with him....

i have lost myself so completely...

but to answer the ????? you cannot do anything to make them not feel/think these imagined threats.... even if you sit like a statue for days, like a robot... they will just think up something to rage about... a look... a lie... a delusion... a piece of dirt... a shirt with one wrinkle... it is insanity... i am always wrong, i do everything wrong, sorry........................

i am at that terrible place i cannot live with him... i really in my soul know i cannot live this false life..

but i cannot break away... complete... i dont want to feel this anger, shame, rage, he has infected me with.....

[WRITE]

he has beat me
thrown me out of our home... at night.. in the cold... alone...no phone...no money...
and he gets mad because i wasn't home in bed with him....

dear mythreedots

I am so sorry you are enduring this cruelty and threat to your safety.
You need some support.

but i cannot break away...

yes you can.

It is no harder than what you're doing to yourself by staying, and you know I look back now and it wasthe violence brought me to my senses. I could not lie to myself about it, pretend 'he's a nice guy really' or sweep his problems aside and just live with them.

But I never felt in fear for my life, either. Your husband's violence is extreme and you may need protection and help.

Do you know what services are available in your area?

Yes, when you break away it will hurt to remember the promises and hopes which were not fulfilled, but you can have a much stronger happier life on your own or with another person who has self-control and respect.

You may feel lost now but you can find yourself again and heal.

You may not understand and be able to help him, but you can take care of yourself.

Start with support, which you already have here in bucketloads (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Confounded]

Well, I must say this sounds pretty grim.

CB123, we can get into an argument over nearly anything that we work on together, either over communication issues, or methodology.  These arguments are usually so petty that they are absurd.  Recently, he returned from a trip and I was putting a white load in the wash, as I knew he would like me to do (trying to show him that I care what he wants by doing it).   I asked him to give me any white items out of his suitcase.  He did so, and I asked him, "Is that it?"  He replied, "I'm sure there's more over there."  I rolled my eyes, and said, "I'm asking you if that's it from the suitcase.  The thing you're working on."  He got mad.  I was giving him attitude.  He'd had a long drive.  His dumb response was probably not all that dumb.  My question wasn't very specific.  It relied upon his understanding of language, in that we refer back to the last thing discussed with short nonspecific followup phrases.  I can talk to my sister on the phone for three hours and never have a single communcation problem.  I can't get through 15 minutes with him without an issue.  He couldn't process my question as intended and I found it irritating.  I told him, "I know what's over here.  I have been here the entire time you were gone.  I'm asking you about the suitcase.  Duh."  So much for my attempt to please him by doing a white load for him. 

If you think I'm an impatient bitch, you can tell me.  You may be right.  I'm used to the talk of business and that of my own family, which is often the same sort of thing.  Fast and precise.  My H's family is nothing like mine, and his career has been in government, not business.  I hate having arguments over such tiny differences.  It's just stupid.  But I know that if I were in his position, I would say, "Oh.  I guess that's sort of obvious.  Yes, that's it for the suitcase.  BTW, is my white sweatshirt in there?  I need to have some sweatshirts go through the wash.  I only have two clean ones left and one of them has a hood, which I don't like."  That response might make him mad, due to being TMI.  Whatever.  Saying "Whatever." would probably make him mad, attitude again.       

Mythreedots, have you called the police when these events were taking place?  Your cops trump his rage.  Once you call them, and call them again if he doesn't stop after they arrest him the first time, a judge will tell him, "Mr. ____, if you do it again, you're going to the penitentiary."  That should put a stop to anything physical.  But the verbal will remain.  That's what I'm trying to stop.  The angry outbursts.

I have been responding to each of his temper fits as if it were simply a reaction to the event that seemed to precipitate it.  But now I see that his anger builds up and is eventually released over something of no real consequence.  None of it is of any real consequence.  He is tilting at windmills.

I am looking for a way to get through to him.  To tell him that everything's fine.  I am on his side.  He is his own enemy, as he is reacting to next to nothing, and creating the very loathing of him that he fears.

He is out of town now.  But he will be back tomorrow.  I can already feel the anxiety starting to build within me. 

I need a strategy.  So far, all I have is ignoring him, and;

a) I'm not sure how to do that effectively.  Walk away saying nothing?  Walk away telling him that I'm following his mother's advice to ignore him the way she did his dad? Try to give him some quick response and bow out, to go work on something?, plus

b) I'm not sure that it will work.  He may just get mad about being ignored, especially by me.

One thing I have noticed is that I often crave his company, with a little bit of loathing mixed in.  When this happens, I usually regret spending the time with him.  It's as if I can anticipate when he's going to act like a jerk, before he does it.  Maybe I have just become attuned to the cycle of abuse, and I know that if it's been a while since his last blowup he's going to start getting weird again.

There is a huge backlog of unfinished projects around here.  Built up during months of my depression.  I sometimes think that I need to just keep busy with all this stuff.  Too busy to argue.

[OR]

I didn't understand what an N was until the last 4 months of my 27 yr marriage. I was full of insecurities from my childhood that I believe sent me into the arms of my ex.

One day he would be happy and fun we were in love he was my best friend.
Then it was  like he was puffing you up with love and emotion so he could suck the life out of you the next day. Then it would stun you, he would be nice again then the cycle would start all over again. He will never say he is sorry so you can't expect Ns to have feelings you will ever reach.
You have to just cut your losses.

I was a codependent walking on eggshells not setting boundaries for the Ns bad behavior.
I learned to ignore, keeping my voice low and calm. Say what needs to be said don't defend yourself or get emotional. Ns are like emotional cripples, don't expect someone with NO LEGS to get up and walk.

Learn about the pain you feel when you seek approval. The pain will pass work through it. It's ok for others not to be happy with your actions. 

If you were to read some of the other stories on this board you would see Ns are alike the same fly on every wall. They are so classic the symptoms are the same. It's not you that makes him crazy. 

Leaving my N was the best thing to do. Ns believe everyone else has the problem so there is no help for them. You must be the one to get help, how to let go. Give up the power to maintain control over the uncontrollable.

Just some thoughts.... OR

   

[Confounded]

I hear you.  Seems like there is no "right" way to deal with this.  So I guess I'm going to focus on trying to be happy and keep it real.  I will do what I want, try not to be too much of a bitch about it, and if he has an issue then he will have to sleep it off.  That's what he does.  He gets riled and then he has to sleep to get back to normal.  I hate sleeping beside him when he goes to bed mad.  I'd rather sleep alone if he's going to be like that.

In the past I have kept him up into the wee hours of the morning, trying to get our arguments to closure (compromise or a proof-based victory).  Based on what I have read here, I'm going to stop pursuing closure.  I'm in the process of getting things put back together after a renovation project.  This includes moving some furniture around, which will create an upstairs office/guestroom.  He can sleep in there on a twin bed if he's in a bad mood.

Your stories are really interesting to me, especially since my H's diagnosis is "N tendencies" not full NPD, and the therapist was very specific that it's NT, and not NPD.  My H is not as extreme as what you describe.  But there are some uncanny parallels.  Seriously.

That pesticide situation is very similar to a huge issue here.  The summer after I moved here my H bought two tomato plants and planted them at the bottom of a long lawn-covered hill.  I saw where they were planted and noted that the runoff from the lawn poured over an edger at the bottom of the hill, drenching their roots in lawn runoff.  I knew that my H used Scott's Turfbuilder II Plus Halts on the lawn and I told him, "We can't grow tomatoes there.  That runoff from the lawn is full of toxic chemicals.  That stuff will kill you."  He insisted that the runoff didn't get on the tomatoes' roots, and even if it did that it wasn't a problem.

I took photos of the runoff drenching the roots and pooling right in the spot where he had planted the tomatoes.  Then I pulled them up and threw them away.  I think that a true NPD would have gone ballistic.  He just continued to insist that it had been fine, and that they had done it for years, no problem.

I got on the Internet and also contacted Scott's.  The EPA goes completely nuts over the chemicals in that product.  Turns out that you can't even touch it to your skin without risking death.  Farm workers exposed to those chemicals, getting it on their skin, have high rates of liver cancer.  Scott's does not want people growing food plants anywhere near the stuff.  Facing this irrefutable proof that he was wrong, he still tried to maintain that it was probably okay.

Eventually, I got so sick of listening to it that I told him off, bigtime.  I told him that he and his late wife were foolish, and that if they had just looked at the package it would have been obvious to them that it was ultra-toxic.  Given that she was a dietitian, she should have put it together, even if he didn't have sense enough to figure it out.  Given that she had died in her mid-forties of very aggressive colorectal cancer, it seemed to me that maybe she had died of her own stupidity.  I really think that this may have been the cause of her illness.  Those chemicals are extremely dangerous, lethal actually.  Duh.

Anyway, I find that my H seems to be intermittently angry, and now I'm trying to figure out if this is simply because it takes time for him to build up to another temper fit.  I had thought that he was fine during the times when he's not raging.  Our arguments often get as ugly as what I describe above.  After I have endured his artillery fire for too long, I fight back, with nukes.  Anything that he can come up with verbally, I can beat, and he doesn't dare lay a finger on me anymore.  I put a stop to that.

Anyway, I think that I'm just going to try to be very intentional in everything I do and say.  I don't know if it will help.  But I doubt that it will hurt.

If anybody knows of anything else that might be helpful, beyond ignoring him and being intentional (trying to lead, rather than follow him down the road to Crazytown), I am interested in hearing about it.  Thanks.

[Stormchild]

If N feels threatened illogically & involuntarily, what can be done to help?

Nothing, unfortunately. This is part of why the N is an N.

Trying to help them in this situation = trying to rescue them from their N-ness [by curing it without their involvement or consent, or otherwise changing the universe so that the problem disappears] = Karpman dynamics, and risks enmeshing you in codependence. Not to mention - it can't be done. It requires a degree of power over the universe that nobody has.

Only the N can solve this problem for themselves. They themselves must learn how to identify when they feel threatened, rather than reacting reflexively and without thought to any perceived threat; they themselves must learn how to distinguish genuine threats from illusory ones; they themselves must learn the extent to which those illusory threats come from inappropriate beliefs and expectations on their part [entitlement, etc.], and then, if they want to be well, they must modify those beliefs and expectations.

You can't do this for them. If it were possible to do this for them, all Ns would be easy to cure... and we all know that the exact opposite is true.

We can, though, cure ourselves; we can learn what is and isn't N behavior, what expectations come from entitlement and grandiosity as opposed to healthy self-respect, and what we can do to protect ourselves and avoid becoming as distorted in our responses as the Ns are in their behaviors.

After a lifetime of tying ourselves in knots to appease, placate, or otherwise indulge Ns, there are definitely going to be kinks and twists in our instinctive responses to them. This, we can do something about; this, we can help.

[mudpuppy]

If N feels threatened illogically & involuntarily, what can be done to help?

A brain transplant.

In the likely event you can't find any physicians who specialize in such procedures and your N is sufficiently arrogant, you might be able to convince him he could be the first person to perfom one on himself. He'll need a can opener, some bacon tongs and a donor. Unfortunately God's brain is the only one an N would deem suitable as a replacement for his own so that donor part might be a deal killer.


mud

[CB123]

Mud--

You make the point so much better than I!  As usual!   

Love
CB

[legalmom]

i don't know how to do this!!!
reading cb's reply made me want to scream..... i have known for a long time that he will never change, there is no winning, there is no peace, no kindness, tenderness, partnership, bonding, compassion......

it is like a cruel, twisted trick, i needed so much to be a part of... i thought i had found a place, i thought i was home... we both loved to spend time out doors and garden... with his dogs... but it's not real, it is his sick world. and u r right, if you say anything...even if asked, it had better be glowing approval and all sweetness... my voice has no soul here...

and it doesn't matter in the end how much i modify my behavior, my responses, my words, he twists everything i say and all my actions into negative, misunderstood acts of insanity, disloyalty, lies... it truly is insane... the contradictions, the irrational beliefs, the lies..

i keep waiting for the man that used to adore me, cuddle me... the man that said "If i ever start to take you for granted, tell me."
the man that said "remind me if i forget (which he does from one moment to the next) that this is the most fun i ever had in a relationship."  now i am studid, idiot, bitch, c word... liar, thief, i cannot do one thing right...

he wasn't real... i feel so sad for him, i feel sorry for him, but he IS NOT reachable, there is no "lost little heart" to rescue... i cant believe i feel so bad for him... he likes to be cruel... i swear... the insanity of his reasoning... the insanity of me trying to make any type of logical sense out of him... i have driven myself to the brink of sanity trying to understand his behavior, his inconsistant, convoluted conversations... which he actually cannot have a real conversation...

trying to get him to "love me" to "approve of me" again...

he has beat me
thrown me out of our home... at night.. in the cold... alone...no phone...no money...
and he gets mad because i wasn't home in bed with him....

i have lost myself so completely...

but to answer the ????? you cannot do anything to make them not feel/think these imagined threats.... even if you sit like a statue for days, like a robot... they will just think up something to rage about... a look... a lie... a delusion... a piece of dirt... a shirt with one wrinkle... it is insanity... i am always wrong, i do everything wrong, sorry........................

i am at that terrible place i cannot live with him... i really in my soul know i cannot live this false life..

but i cannot break away... complete... i don't want to feel this anger, shame, rage, he has infected me with.....

And i thought i was the only one who felt this way?!!

but you are right, Nothing We do will ever be right, or perfect,acceptable,correct,smart,or forgotten.. even if they tell us exaclty how to do something "they want done", these N's(my husband) would Still find a way to criticize,degrade and judge me for not doing it "His Way", he Doesn't even Know what His way IS!!!But its "THE ONLY and Right way"...*sigh*....

Funny, Yesterday my NH got mail--a dvd on depression(info He requested)..i asked him about it(he was serious when he said this) " I got it for you!".....Aahhhhhhhhhh.... that takes the cake and sums this crappola all up! they have 0 clue that THEY are the problem!!

you are not alone..realize,we all are in this together, and will get stronger!
Celeste

[legalmom]

If N feels threatened illogically & involuntarily, what can be done to help?

A brain transplant.

In the likely event you can't find any physicians who specialize in such procedures and your N is sufficiently arrogant, you might be able to convince him he could be the first person to perfom one on himself. He'll need a can opener, some bacon tongs and a donor. Unfortunately God's brain is the only one an N would deem suitable as a replacement for his own so that donor part might be a deal killer.


mud
[/quote
Dear Mud: thats The Best laugh ive had in 2 days of raging and silent treatment from NH..i almost peed my pants.....

thank you, i really need that laugh..precisely the way i see things too, fight fire with sarcasm..and to think They call us 'bitchy'....the sarcasm is the only tool i have to keep me somewhat sane...
celeste

[camper]

They themselves must learn how to identify when they feel threatened, rather than reacting reflexively and without thought to any perceived threat; they themselves must learn how to distinguish genuine threats from illusory ones; they themselves must learn the extent to which those illusory threats come from inappropriate beliefs and expectations on their part [entitlement, etc.], and then, if they want to be well, they must modify those beliefs and expectations.

Stormchild:  this is so good!  I deal with this big-time!!! 

this is an excellent thread and I can relate to all of you.  And to all of you:  this is such a huge step: to know these behaviors.   

All the yard work stuff...I can so relate.  I lost a whole mess of stuff in my yard due to him hiring people to pull things up and cut everything down.  We have beautiful pine trees he insists on cutting up so the lawn mower can get under them.  The last house I gave up the fight and let him do it.  It looked ridiculous.  All you can see is weeds under the trees.  I will not let him do it at this house so every single spring, it is a battle with him.  He never lets me forget how the grass isn't cut in far enough because of the trees.  Never!  This year instead of cutting the branches at the trunks, he wants our lawn cutter to cut the ends off the branches.  How ridiculous will that look!  We have a chain saw being delivered today so I will have more battles.  This is the grandios part if him.  On the the bright side...I am getting a new vehicle this week and we really don't need one.  I won't get the low-end model, I will get the best.  You get some good with the bad.

Who of us asked for this craziness?  Who of us ever expected it? 

[kodibear]

he has beat me
thrown me out of our home... at night.. in the cold... alone...no phone...no money...
and he gets mad because i wasn't home in bed with him....

dear mythreedots

I am so sorry you are enduring this cruelty and threat to your safety.
You need some support.

but i cannot break away...

yes you can.

It is no harder than what you're doing to yourself by staying, and you know I look back now and it wasthe violence brought me to my senses. I could not lie to myself about it, pretend 'he's a nice guy really' or sweep his problems aside and just live with them.

But I never felt in fear for my life, either. Your husband's violence is extreme and you may need protection and help.

Do you know what services are available in your area?

Yes, when you break away it will hurt to remember the promises and hopes which were not fulfilled, but you can have a much stronger happier life on your own or with another person who has self-control and respect.

You may feel lost now but you can find yourself again and heal.

You may not understand and be able to help him, but you can take care of yourself.

Start with support, which you already have here in bucketloads (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[help]

I am not good at sharing, or, expressing my feelings, but after these past 3-4 years, if I don't share with someone what I have been going thru lately, I may just lose my mind. I can't sleep, I am barely able to get up to come to the office. My thoughts are are just mush. I don't know what to think, or believe anymore. The worst part is, my situation is to much to try and explain to someone. They would think I had lost all of my senses.

I need answers,advice, insight, or help in any form. I will tell you my story. I hope I can tell you some of it without babbling:

I met this man Dec'2003. We dated, and was ingaged to be married very quickly. He had big dreams, promises, and hopes in all of my areas of insterest. We told everyone we were in love and we were not going to have a "long" engagement. We have had numerous problems issues along the way, and we still are not married. All of the problems/issues according to him have been mine. He says, I am: selfish, self-seeking, not a christain, and have lots of issues from my marriage(now divorced) that I have brought into our relationship??

Thru the years F,(what I will call him) has exhibited mood swings. One day he is on top of the world, the next day he is pessimisstic about everything. Which is for the most part his outlook 99% of the time. He feels everyone hates him, and is out to get him. He lurks behind every door to see what is there. He lost his wife in a car accident and to him tell it, she was this wonderful, saint that never did wrong. He says she is the only real Christian he has ever known. His children left hm after their mother died, and have never spoken to him, visited him, or called him since. He doesn't speak to some of his brothers and sisters, and the ones he does, it is because he wants something from them.Which is always MONEY.

He started our relationship loving my girls,my sisters/brothers, and being around my family. Now he puts them all down. He has no reason to do so.  They are always kind and loving to him. However, he says their "problems" are from my mother and father???

F, rages at me, and blows the tinyest of thing out of context. He never allows me to explain myself, we don't discuss my so call, "issues" (he just beats me over the head with them) I have no idea what he is talking about. He never apologizes, i'm told i am controlling, ect ect ect. He talks terribly about my ex-husband, which was a good husband and was/is a great father. When we (he) have these dark times, he disappears! he want call, or answer any calls from me. sometimes for almost 2 weeks. He once disappeared for 4 months!! puff, he was gone. Then one day he just called....
Dumb me, just took him back....

Last Thursday, he unleashed on me, told me not to wear my engagement ring, he wasn't getting into a marriage with me until i corrected my issues, i was selfish, if he married me i would not look after him, i only want him to give to me, and i never share with him. he gives me nothing. even when he does repairs to my hm, i have to pay him for the "gas" to get to my house., and i buy the needed supplies. He said some terrible things to me, a little worst than usual. His sister told me he had been talking over the phone to his x-girlfriend. they had an affair durning his GREAT MARRIAGE..
knowing he is seeing someone else has taken me for a loop. I tried calling him, he want answer his phone.

I think the last blow, and the things he said,(he had never some of the things before) was his way of dumping me. I think he wants to pursue, rekindle his relationship with his old flame. He has a key to my house that i want, i have paid him to do work to my house he hasn't done. What do I do now...

I have wanted to get out of this dark hole, i just haven't had the energy. I am going to see a Counselor this week. I am lost.... is he coming back???