Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?

[gratitude28]

One more Doctor note... My mother dragged me in all the time so that they would find unique things in me... She LOVED it if a doc or dentist said he had never seen whatever I "had" before...

My sister was also used, but seemed to enjoy the attention. According to her and my mother, she had Lyme's disease, Toxic Shock, and a few other amazingly rare diseases. Huh???? Isn't that like winning the lottery and getting hit by lightning at the same time?????

So I think my dread of the doctor is that I will be "singled out" and, especially, called on my "bad behaviors." I feel like they can see through me and know that I am "being bad." Not sure where that comes from.

Also, hops, I do believe our society has become very polarized. Everyone wants to prove the other wrong. It is very sad that we feel the need to be this way. I keep thinking about this and wondering if it was this way 20, 30, 40 years ago and I just didn't know it or don't see it. I am disgusted with how our country's visible upper eschalon behaves - on both sides (pun intended lol).

Kisses to all,
Beth

[Hopalong]

Hi Beth,
I've heard the phrase "coarsening" of our culture. It fits for me, and makes me sad.
I think of ancient Rome's descent into debauchery, complete decadence, indifferent crowds cheering the suffering of gladiators and human prey thrown in with lions. (I don't believe homosexuality is a debauched state, though.) For me, corporate greed and plunder and governmental lying and trumped-up pretexts for wars are decadent..

Anyway, didn't mean to get political, was meaning to chime in about the sort of horror I feel at the way people treat each other these days, magnified and worsened by the media.

And...your Mom sounds vaguely Munchausen's by proxy-ish, in the way she used you for doctors' attention. Yuggh. Sorry that happened to you...

On a happier note, how is sweet Henry?????? How are you yourself since the Big Move?

hugs
Hops

[Green]

Hi All,

I woke up at 3am thinking about this thread, so I guess that means there is something big for me to learn here.  Bring it on!

Bean, thanks for adding to the list.  When you put it so succinctly, it becomes all the more obvious to me how similar my Nmom and I are in some of our emotions  (anxiety, negativity, rage). this is scary.  But unlike her, I am working on accepting those emotions and choosing different behaviors . 

Debkor, that sounds like a horrific experience at the dentist, but brava to you for overcoming it! Is it possible that you like visiting the dentist now because it is a reminder of your accomplishment, like maybe you feel strong and proud?  Maybe I am way off, but that was my first thought.


Beth, I agree with Hops that what your mom did to you sounds "Munchausen's by proxy-ish".  I am sorry that you had to endure that. My mom did something similar to me, too. I had a minor heart condition when I was a kid (now cleared up for the most part), and boy did she love to drag me to all those appointments and play the part of the doting mother.  But behind closed doors, when no one was looking, and I was sick with flu or something, she really didn't give a toot.   your description of fearing they would single you out and call you on "bad behaviors" is familiar, too.  I remember in high school, the dr. asking me if I was a virgin (so he could decide if i needed a gyn exam as part of my physical).  I was, and he told my mom.  She was gloating for some reason (not pride, but gloating).  I was so ashamed, but I don't really understand why.  My mom was promiscuous, and I was a virgin, why should I be ashamed?

Ami, I think a new thread on medical fears is a great idea.  I bet there are a lot of relevant stories out there.You are certainly not alone or weird, but I know how strange and lonely this process can feel! What you describe in medical situations sound very similar to my experiences, which I think of as anxiety attacks.  you say you think you might be compensating - for what?  This sounds interesting. also, the phobias as both a wish and a fear is fascinating and makes total sense to me!!!  thanks for sharing it.  I am not sure how it ties into my experiences, except, that I had similar feelings, wanting my mom to genuinely show me love and nurturing, but knowing deep down that I would not get it.  So painful.

Gotta run quickly now, but more later,
Green

[Stormchild]

Beth, I agree with Hops that what your mom did to you sounds "Munchausen's by proxy-ish".  I am sorry that you had to endure that. My mom did something similar to me, too. I had a minor heart condition when I was a kid (now cleared up for the most part), and boy did she love to drag me to all those appointments and play the part of the doting mother.  But behind closed doors, when no one was looking, and I was sick with flu or something, she really didn't give a toot.   your description of fearing they would single you out and call you on "bad behaviors" is familiar, too.  I remember in high school, the dr. asking me if I was a virgin (so he could decide if i needed a gyn exam as part of my physical).  I was, and he told my mom.  She was gloating for some reason (not pride, but gloating).  I was so ashamed, but I don't really understand why.  My mom was promiscuous, and I was a virgin, why should I be ashamed?

Oh, sweetie, she was gloating because she thought, in her sad warped little mind, that she'd won the Attractiveness Contest, because she had 'scored' at that age, and you hadn't.

Yes, they really are that sick. The notion that you would prize your virginity would never even have occurred to her. It was about a contest, about her 'beating' you at some competition that only existed in her own head.

I'm sorry you went through this...

[axa]

Green,

Loved your piece about flossing your teeth.  My taking care of myself is getting into the bath rather than taking a quick shower.  I moved house recently and bought myself a big old antique bath with claw legs.  It looks beautiful but I struggle with getting into it, like it is too good for me.  When I do manage to fill the tub and get in the longest time I have managed to spend in there is 10 mins which seemed like an eternity........ practising staying in the bath is one of my big struggles.

As for the dentist.  When I grew up the only time you went to the dentist was when you were beside yourself with pain.  I loved going to the dentist.  I felt as if someone acknowledged my pain and tried to help me.  Funny how I always have a soft spot for dentists!  The irony was that he would give me a lecture on cleaning my teeth regularily but the problem was that my parents never bought us toothbrushes.......... they were an extravagance but they could afford to socialise, go for drinks, etc.  Our teeth were just about as important as we kids were!

axa

[Hopalong]

Oops, Beth.
I want to apologize...just realized that I did some political venting in my post to you that really was not tactful as all because your dear H is in the military.

Please forgive me, I completely forgot that for the moment. Good grief (thwacks head...)

I hope he and you and Henry and well and happy and adjusting to a new base and new life...

How is it going?

love
Hops

[teartracks]

Hi Green,

So my question is this: what other behaviors do we pick up from our Ns?  Are there any other biggies to watch out for and work on?

There's lots to be aware of and prepare for when in 'relationship' with an N.  It will unfold for you as you go through the process of recovery.   In the meantime, stay faithful to rebuilding, re-mothering yourself.  The re-mothering is very important.    Complex, but important.

tt

[Ami]

Loved your piece about flossing your teeth.  My taking care of myself is getting into the bath rather than taking a quick shower.  I moved house recently and bought myself a big old antique bath with claw legs.  It looks beautiful but I struggle with getting into it, like it is too good for me.  When I do manage to fill the tub and get in the longest time I have managed to spend in there is 10 mins which seemed like an eternity........ practising staying in the bath is one of my big struggles.
 
I had to respond to this,Axa, because I always feel like I have to punish myself or somehow take away joy from myself. I have so many things to enjoy that are like your bath tub. I feel like I am violating something"primal" by enjoying myself.
   I got this GREAT insight in Vaknin's book . We were"infected" with  N'ism and other mental illness.We were hollowed out inside and filled up with all these mentally "crazy" ideas. They are not ours at all. The problem for us is separating them from our essential self.
  I have starting digging. I,personally, love this concept. It makes me realize that although I may "feel" like I have these things, they are not a part of the 'real" me. Now, digging out the real me is the trick.                                                                           Love-"the digger"    Ami

[Hopalong]

Oooo yes, both Chocolat and Babette's Feast!!

Such wonderful, anti-Puritanical visions.

bliss...(coming from someone who "beeps" rather than cooks, tho  )

Hops

[Ami]

[Do you know what drop-kicked me out of that mindset?



CB,
  Could you describe specifically what  mind set you meant(above) ?

[tayana]

I learned that I don't really matter.  My wants, dreams and desires are nothing but pipedreams.  I learned that I shouldn't dream big because that's a fantasy world, and I need to live in reality.

I learned that I should always try to please other people, even when what they want doesn't feel right to me.

I learned that I should never talk about how I feel because my feelings mean nothing.

I learned that the only appropriate feelings I can have are guilt, shame and negativity. 

I learned that my happiness means absolutely nothing, because my Nmom doesn't want me to be happy.

And most importantly, I learned that people aren't to be trusted, that the only person I can rely on is myself, because I'm the only one who cares about me.

[Hopalong]

Hi Tayana,

Glad you're posting...that's a painful list to read, but good you're writing it.

I hope some of those false beliefs are starting to shift...

Hops

[tayana]

Thanks Hops,

Some of them maybe.  Not all, especially that last one.

T

[Bella_French]

So my question is this: what other behaviors do we pick up from our Ns?  Are there any other biggies to watch out for and work on?

Finding it easier and more meaningful to nurture others than self nurture is a biggie for me, as well as:

Setting goals that are too difficult to accomplish, or expecting them to be accomplished sooner than is reasonable.

Procrastinating and under-performing to avoid criticism

Not asking for help when I need it.

I have a lot of difficulty with putting up protective boundaries and defending myself from bullies.

(theres probably a lot more, but that will do for now:)

Some GOOD behaviours I've learned from being around N's include:

Being tuned into `under the radar' type of aggression. Sometimes that can really help with self=protection, or can result in helping another person.

I think I am sensitive, understanding, and compassionate because of my experiences.

(there are probably more but i am a bit uncomfortable with this:)




 

[axa]

CB

Babettes Feast has to be one my all time favourite films.  When things got really bad with XN and |I I watched Dogville and boy did I associate with the Nicole Kidman character.

I have great difficulty seperating myself from those negative messages which were beat into me.  In my head I am clear about what I deserve and my good points but the child in me struggles all the time.  When there were "good"times with xn I would not allow myself enjoy them as I have such a strong message around do not get complacent because it will all end in disaster anyway.  I feel like I have withdrawn from the world these days.  The only place that feels safe to me is alone at home.  I know this is my pattern of isolation but feel quite stuck at the moment.  I get so tired and bored with the struggle.

axa