Author Topic: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?  (Read 6963 times)

Green

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Hi,

I just registered and am glad to be here.  I have been reading for awhile and decided today's the day to jump in.  Thanks to you all for posting here.   it has been really helpful to me, even just to feel not alone.

In therapy a couple years ago I realized my mom is N (more of the neglectful type than the smothering type). At first I thought my dad was one, too, but then I realized that he is an enabeler/co-dependent and that he loved me as much as his broken puppet-self could manage. That realization was a huge gift. My Nmom dumped him and he remarried another N-ish woman.  One of my biggest challenges is to sort out who in my life is N, and who just has N-ish traits (I think just about everyone does to a certain degree).  Seeing things in shades of grey is a big challenge, as Nmom raised me to evaluate people and events in black and white.

These days my emotions are all over the place, but at least I know what emotions are now. That is real progress for me - being able to look internally.  Some days I grieve my lost childhood and lost pretend family of origin.  Other days I am so angry.  On good days I feel sort of calm and on those day I do my hardest work- to look at what bad habits I picked up from my N. 

Having been raised by an N, I know I learned some dysfunctional behaviors that I want to recognize and unlearn.  Here are two examples: 

1) The biggest one is recognizing that I sometimes act like a martyr or victim. Growing up, I was not allowed to have my own feelings, so i learned not to bother expressing them.  So now as an adult, instead of setting boundaries, and saying what I want and don't want, I sometimes stomp around, huffing and resentful.    My Nmom did that all the time and it is so manipulative.  It's disgusting and I want to stop doing that.

2) My mom looks at people in very black and white terms.  Her love is conditional.  Either someone treats her like gold, serving as narcissistic supply and she thinks they are great.  Or they treat her as less than royalty, and she dumps them and moves on.  I learned that friendships are absolutely temporary.  So now, feeling generally unlovable to begin with, do not invest enough time in maintaing friendships because I feel unworthy.  My reasons for letting friendships go are very different from my Nmom's but the effect is similar - few or no friends.

Feeling very exposed here, but that's the best way to learn, I guess.

So my question is this: what other behaviors do we pick up from our Ns?  Are there any other biggies to watch out for and work on?

with gratitude,

Green
(because I like the color)

Stormchild

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2007, 02:18:10 PM »
This is a terrific first post, Green! Welcome!

I think you've nailed two of the biggies.

The martyr-vampire act is a major N indicator -- but, it's a major temptation to people who've been N-damaged, too. It's just like malingering, except that malingering is in the body, and this is in the soul. If you learn in your family that the sick child - or parent!!! - receives the lion's share of care and is excused from responsibility, you grow up using sickness to avoid responsibility and manipulate people into giving you care. You learn to malinger. Same difference with martyrdom.

Both are unhealthy - martyrdom and malingering - and both can be hard addictions to break, but if we have them, we must break free. [Edit in: a lot of codependents are 'martyrs', and living with an N doth definitely a codependent make.]

The black and white stuff is 'splitting'.

This one is tricky, because it can be dangerous to see Ns and other toxic folks in shades of gray, although it's tempting and we're told it's healthy... emotionally healthy people are definitely full of grayscale and texture and tone, but in dealings with  really toxic people, it can be protective to apply a more black-and-white standard. I think this for 3 reasons:

(1) most toxic people are geniuses at messing with your head, and will take advantage of any leverage you give them, so it's best not to give them any until you have at least a brown belt in ideNtifying and dealiNg with Ns.

(2) most Ns see the world as black and white because they have made themselves black and white; they try to take into themselves all the good qualities from anyone they contact, and push onto those others all their own negative qualities.

(3) toxicity itself is pretty black and white, in a lot of cases. Nobody sane is going to go around choosing to eat food that they know is contaminated with hopefully sub-lethal doses of botulinum toxin or E. Coli 0157:H merely because 'we shouldn't think of food poisoning in black and white terms - after all, there are some pathogenic bacteria in everyone's digestive tracts'. That's nuts. And we can tell it's nuts when we think that way about food poisoning, but we don't see it as nuts when we think that way about soul poisoning. We'll go back and back to people who abuse us, misuse us, treat us like things... because we shouldn't think in black and white terms; after all, there are flaws in everyone. Yes, there are; but some people are profoundly, incapacitatingly flawed, and others are not.

Now... I haven't answered your question yet, so I will.

This is going to be a bit iconoclastic.

I think the single biggest thing that we get infected with, by Ns, is the need to 'look perfect' regardless of reality.

An inability to admit to our flaws, especially when confronted about them.

A super-defensiveness.

There are plenty of reasons for this; we've spent our lives around people whose primary form of recreation involved tearing us down, so any form of critical input is likely to feel like a kick in the gut.

But - if we become so defensive and self-justifying that we can't hear or accept legitimate input when we're not on the right track, we're in danger of becoming indistinguishable from the Ns we so condemn, in some very important areas.

Denial of our own N-spots, I think, is how some others here have described it. It's really unfortunate, because in my opinion it's the single most significant obstacle to genuine healing.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 02:35:01 PM by Stormchild »
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Green

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2007, 03:42:08 PM »
Thanks, Stormchild, for your thoughtful reply and for introducing me to the term "malingering".  I had not heard it before and I imagine it might be related to hypochondria (my mom does this) and the syndrome (the name escapes me) where a parent makes her child sick just to get the doctors' attention (my mom didn't do this exactly, but close).

As for black/white (splitting) thinking, i had never thought of it as having potential to help us, as in categorizing something dangerous (like ecoli or  Ns) and realizing in no uncertain terms we should avoid it.  Good point.  Ironic that it is actually a very grey way to interpret black/white!  :)    I guess it is a good exercise to look at what I think of as weaknesses and try to see the potential as strength - like learning that my nearly crippling empathy also gives me the ability to read people well sometimes.

As for self-defensiveness - my first reaction was "Hey!  I'm not defensive!"   :)  Guess that's not true.  I must be defensive on some level.  But if someone tells me "you are crap.  this is all your fault" usually, my first instinct is to agree, "yes I am crap, this must be all my fault".  But I think my defensiveness must kick in later and takes the form of resentment.  Thanks for the opportunity to think about this.

Green

axa

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2007, 11:42:16 PM »
Green,

Welcome,

What I learned from my Nparents was that I must always try and please others at whatever cost to myself.  I must be passive, try and appease angry people, love those who do not care for me and the more they abuse me the more I must love them  UGH.  Never trust my own instincts, always doubt the warning flags I could go on and on.

In my own healing a significant part for me is taking care of myself and I struggle with this all the time.  I have a core desire to abandon myself and my dreams in the hope of being "loved" by the N.  What a waste of time and energy.  At some level I am trying to reparent myself in a loving way and KNOW that I am worth the respect and care that I deserve.  Considering I am one of the best caretakers in the world caring for myself is the most difficult challenge in front of me.

Staying connected to this board reminds me daily of the need to self care.  Also I am convinced it is the only way for me to get out of the cycle of abuse.

Axa


Hopalong

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2007, 12:09:26 AM »
Welcome, Green,

Thanks for putting this so well. It rings true for me...

Quote
One of my biggest challenges is to sort out who in my life is N, and who just has N-ish traits (I think just about everyone does to a certain degree).  Seeing things in shades of grey is a big challenge, as Nmom raised me to evaluate people and events in black and white.

I'm looking forward to your posts, and learning from you.

best,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

poetprose

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2007, 06:34:43 AM »
Hi Green


>>>These days my emotions are all over the place, but at least I know what emotions are now. That is real progress for me - being able to look internally.  Some days I grieve my lost childhood and lost pretend family of origin.  Other days I am so angry. <<<

I can relate to that, somewhere I have a poem about this, I'll dig it up and share it :-)

Green

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2007, 12:18:33 PM »
Thank you all for replying!  As if I can predict the future (another bad habit picked up from Nmom) I predicted the worst, that I would drift off into the internet ether, unnoticed.  I need to find a balance between wanting to be noticed/heard and needing too much outside validation.  It is a tricky balance. Another one to add to the long list of stuff I need to work on.

Axa, I identify with all of what you said.  I am at once comforted that you feel the same way, and sad that you have to endure this, too.  The reparenting stuff is especially tricky.  It is probably no coincidence that the best caretakers have a hard time caring for themselves.  The best methods for reparenting myself lately have been 1) to tell myself "you're going to be OK" (something I never heard as a kid), and 2) Flossing my teeth  :D.  I have no idea why flossing makes me feel worthwhile, but hey- I'll take what I can get!

Hops, I suspect this black/white thinking stuff is pretty common in dysfunctional families. Such a hard mindset to break out of.  The more I recognize it, the more progress I make in changing how I think about it.

Besee, Yes, I had a similar experience when I found out about N. I was terrified that I might be one or become one if I started trying to exist. I think that in watching my Nmom , I simultaneously learned that I should not exist and that if I did try to have a self, that it would be disgusting, that having a self is a terribly selfish thing to do.  Ugh.

Poetprose,
i would love to see your poem if you find it.  I really enjoy reading poetry because it can express so much powerful subtlety that other forms of communication seem to get bogged down in.  I do not write it, but I like to read.

Here is one of my favorite poems (by Anna Akhamatova).  It reminds me of Ns.

"He loved three things in life:
Evensong, white peacocks
And old maps of America.
He hated it when children cried,
He hated tea with raspberry jam
And women's hysterics.
...And I was his wife."

Green

 

Hopalong

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2007, 01:28:03 PM »
Great poem, Green. Thanks for sharing it.

another thought about B & W...I think it's everywhere in the culture. For example:

You're with us or with the terrorists.
You're good or you're evil.
You're left or right.
You're saved or damned.
You're pretty or not.
You're young or not.

etc

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Green

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2007, 02:18:32 PM »
Yes, Hops, it is everywhere, isn't it?!  Ns must just love that.  It just occurred to me that Ns have a way to simplify things even further:

With Ns, you're damned if you do and damned if don't!  :?

(hope my "French" doesn't offend, but it just doesn't sound the same when you substitute with "darned")

Green

Hopalong

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2007, 10:03:49 PM »
Damn right, Mlle Verte.
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

gratitude28

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2007, 05:17:33 AM »
((((((((((((((((((((Green))))))))))))))))))))

You sound so wise!!!!!!!!!
I catch a ton of these behaviors in myself and I am working on purging them :) What a mess ourr heads can be!!!

I realized a new one lately... that when I meet a potential friend, I always place the person "above" or "below" me. Not even sure how my twisted head determines that... but I am working on getting rid of that one.

I could fill a book with things like that. Many of them I have changed already. My version of therapy has bee AA and I have been able to open my eyes to what I really acted like before...

I am often very superior about how I am at work (much of it is true... I am a good and efficient worker and often know best what to do in a situation)... but I also get an attitude that I am so much smarter than the other person.

I used to do things to "show" my parents how much better I was than them (I copied this from them) and now catch myself dropping info to people to let them know things about me... I am catching that before I do it now.

Like you. Green, my mom is the N and dad is a decent sort who is warped by her and his reactions to her. He loved me too and protected me from what she might have done to me, I fully believe.

So glad you are here. I will try to think up some more of these.

Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

gratitude28

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2007, 05:20:43 AM »
Wow, Green, just went back and read through the whole thread and see that we are truly related. My mother also used me to visit the doctor. Because of that, I dread any visit to the doctor. And, like Storm, I never want to bee seen as less than "perfect" and because of that I grew up hiding a lot of stuff I did. Also, my mother is a hypochondriac now... especially when it suits her.
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Green

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2007, 11:59:03 AM »
Wow, ((((((Beth)))))). 

There are a lot of similarities here, aren't there?!

I am afraid of hospital settings now.  I get dizzy and almost pass out - maybe just forgetting to breath.  I have just realized lately that there must be a connection to what my mom did to me as a kid. 

I hear what you mean about evaluating coworkers in relation to yourself.  It is wonderful to be able to recognize and pat your self on the back for being smart, efficient, capable, etc., but there is a fine line in there somewhere.

This was my first though when i read that part of your message.  My mom instilled/tried to instill a sense of snobbery in my brother and me, particularly about intellectual, cultural, and career stuff.  It really took with my brother.  He and my mom cut down everyone they meet and evaluate them by what they think they are"good for".  Are they smart enough to discuss politics with? are they cultured enough to discuss famous authors or philosophical ideas?  My mom usually decides, no, they are not, and that spares her from actually having to come up with her own ideas.

In the past I think I viewed myself as generally worthless, and therefore "below" everybody on the planet, but I am working on changing my perspective.  I wonder if somewhere along the way, I might discover that I have actually taken on my mom's snobbish, evaluating behaviors on some level.  I think it is unlikely that I escaped it entirely.  Something to watch out for. Thanks for bringing that up.

And thanks to everyone for sharing your vulnerable sides.  I didn't think about it too much when I first started this thread, but I now realize that I was asking for a lot from total strangers. "Hi, my name is Green. Now, please tell me your weaknesses and your deepest, darkest N-Spots!"  I hope I didn't freak anybody out or ask too much.  I am amazed at everyone's bravery in allowing themselves to be so vulnerable. 

Love, Green

debkor

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2007, 07:29:35 PM »
Ami,

Oh I hated the dentist when I was younger.  I hated the drill the smell and the sounds.  I would get hysterical and once a dentist kept my mother out and slapped my face when I started to cry. I jumped the chair knocked over something and went running with half my tooth in my mouth. I remember my mom going ape on him.  Then I was taken to a dentist where they put me to sleep and completed all the work in one day.  As I got older I braved it out and went back to the regular dentist.  Now I love the dentist but hate the doctors.  I guess because I am getting older I worry they are going to find something or look for something.  Funny dentist when I was younger now doctors when I'm older.  Jeez! I guess there is always something.  Changes!

Love
Deb

debkor

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Re: Introduction and question: What behaviors did we learn from Ns?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2007, 08:44:35 PM »
Ami,

I don't really know how. It just happened.  Once I faced my fear I saw it was not as bad as I thought and I look forward to dental appointments. But i do I really enjoy the dentist now. 

Deb