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Anonymous:
Hi Wildflower,
How ya' doin'? Thought I'd share something I realised yesterday when I reading on that P/A site. My mother also exhibited a lot of those traits. I started ticking them of on my fingers. Then I thought about the jumper she knitted for that kid, that she buried in the garden for his father to find. Yes, besides psycho, still P/A hey. And other things like cleaning toilets with people's toothbrushes. YYUUUCK. Yep, P/A as well. So my list of questions I posted to me about my kids, is also to me.
Hope it didn't bother you? Just give me the middle finger sign if it did, and add an "Here, Analyse This." hahahahahahahah
And my ex. Whoooah. I could always guarantee a "No" response if I ever asked him directly to do anything. I had to be very cagey and even learn to be very manipulative to get him to do or finish anything. How tiring that was. He manages quite well though with no responsibilities and no demands.
I remember once when a new shopping centre opened quite a way from home. First day, there were going to be great specials. I didn't drive back then, and the kids and I really wanted to go, so he took us. But only if we agreed to one of his dumb conditions. And so we agreed to. hahaha
He was going to stay in the car and time us. We had a certain amount of time or he was leaving without us. We went over the time and when we came out of the shops, with shopping bags and pram and he was gone. hahahahah What a jerk. We had to foot-slog it all the way home, wingey children in tow. I should have walked the other way and kept going then. "Run Forrest, Run!!" comes to mind.
Anyway, in sorting these things out in my mind I think I have a few of these P/A traits myself, so I'm going to do more surfing on the topic. Mine comes in the form of not dealing with issues on the spot, as I've mentioned. And letting things fester and stew and seep. YUK. So I'm aware of that now, which is good. It's gotta start somewhere, hey.
((((HIGS))))
CG
Wildflower:
Hi CG :D,
I've been thinking about the P/A stuff, and I even wrote some stuff about mom after you asked. Then I realized that I couldn't write about individual aspects because one story encompassed multiple traits. And then...
I ran out of anger. :D Really. I met with my therapist this week and took my anger in with me - kinda so she could look at it. It was a good session. I feel like I finally earned some stars or something, too, because she finally came out and used the NPD diagnosis on my mom. She's never said that before - partly because I think she doesn't want to cloud my perceptions and partly because, well, she's never worked with my mom and she only has my testimony. By the way, she laughed when I told her about the P/A list suggestion :D because she knows I'm gonna dive into it. :D "Where will these travels take you next?" she smiled affectionately.
So, I'm coming back to that list. But in the meantime, I'm really glad you've been thinking about it, too. Finding how it fits your mom and stuff. Can I ask you something? Does it make her less scary? I mean, yeah, she's a psychopath, but does it make it easier to handle if you can identify some act as a P/A thing?
And yeah, your ex leaving you like that at the shopping center? Why, cos he had so many more important things to do? Like saving the planet? :roll:
--- Quote ---I had to be very cagey and even learn to be very manipulative to get him to do or finish anything. How tiring that was.
--- End quote ---
Geez, me too. :roll: I had this whole 'system' worked out where I would walk this high wire trying to get anything - ANYTHING - from my mom. Right down to timing my questions...spacing them out...never asking more than twice....making her think it was her idea. Just thinking of asking her something now gives me a head-ache - and usually I just feel hopeless and don't bother. Which, you know, was one more reason why her suicide crap was so freakin stressful. If I ask her to take care of herself, will she do the opposite? If I ask her not to hurt herself three times, will she take a bunch of sleeping pills just cos I 'nagged' her? If I ask the wrong question or say the wrong thing - will she get set in her ways and ... get worse because of me??? If I do nothing...and she commits suicide...
You get the idea? :shock: BARF.
--- Quote ---Mine comes in the form of not dealing with issues on the spot, as I've mentioned. And letting things fester and stew and seep.
--- End quote ---
I had two close friends (one an ex-boyfriend) tell me that they were amazed that the time they spent with me was so peaceful. I never argued or fought. But then I had major blow-outs with each of them - because I'd been racking up all these things I was too afraid to talk about. Afraid that if I disagreed they'd leave me or stop liking me. I admitted something like that to my ex-boyfriend during our biggest fight. Something like, I was afraid to tell you because I thought you'd get upset. He came right back at me, "and you think THIS is BETTER???" Boy was he right. Now every time I think of not saying something because I'm afraid people won't like me - something that I'm upset about - I remember that and try to find a way to address it immediately. It's taken a lot of practice to do it every time - and to do it in a way that doesn't hurt people, but rather, respects their right to know what's going on. But it's not easy.
Take this afternoon for example. My work has suffered big time over the past two months because of all the personal shit I've been sorting through. I finally went to my boss to tell him that I was sorry about my performance lately and that I hope things will be back to normal now. He was sympathetic and before I had a chance to explain, he actually said, "tired of being a super human and just being human?" Sigh. Yep. That one's been on my list a while, too :wink:. He told me to just let him know if I need to back off a little. And he hadn't asked me about it because he didn't want to pry - he can see that I like to keep my privacy.
Good interaction, all things considered, and I've made a mental note to myself to work on a better early warning system at work (and to forgive myself and find a better way if I can't handle work AND all this crap). But I was upset after talking to him, too.
You know why I don't talk about my personal stuff with people I don't know? Because I'm EMBARRASSED that my parents are f*cked up. You know why? Because they're my PARENTS!!! How can I NOT be f*cked up?!?!? I might as well wear a big sign saying "Both my parents are INSANE - so don't bother with me 'cos with TWO parents like that, I gotta be INSANE too" Know what I mean? Arrrrghhhh :evil:
But I've worked and worked and worked to pull my life together and not be messed up like them. Now at least I believe in myself enough to know that I'm not crazy or a bad person - just saddled with some unhealthy habits. But I still hate trying to explain this to strangers - because they can't know how much work I've done. My closest friends don't even know how much work I've done. And you know what? Sometimes that makes me mad. You know why? Because I've done a good job with some hard, crappy, impossibly difficult stuff - and all I have to show for it is being mildly neurotic in the eyes of the average person. Sometimes I just wish I weren't struggling so hard just to be normal. And I wish I could say to people who don't understand, my parents are crazy but that doesn't mean you can't trust me because I've earned my way back into normal life.
I RESENT MY PARENTS FOR GIVING ME THIS CRAP.
I'M TIRED OF PAYING FOR SOMETHING THAT ISN'T MY FAULT.
Sorry...what did I say about being out of anger? I think I just found a new well.... :roll: Eh...or maybe I'm just having a dark moment and it'll pass. :roll:
And here I was just gonna write a quick "no worries I'll be back" post. :lol: And I will. Probably more tonight. I like the P/A idea. :D And it's really comforting knowing you understand what it's like to be there - and be working on this. :D
(((((((((BIG HIGS))))))))))))
Wildflower
Wildflower:
Hi CG,
Here's the stuff I put together the other night in response to the P/A list. Consider it a first installment? :wink:
--- Quote ---FEAR OF DEPENDENCY - Unsure of his autonomy & afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs - usually by trying to control you.
--- End quote ---
I’m not sure about this one, to be honest, but this is what it reminds me of. When I started driving, I was overwhelmed with how free I was. I used to drive people home – hours out of my way – just to be driving. Just to be out. I started hanging out more because I was no longer dependent on my mom to take me out. She was always too tired, too busy, too annoyed to take me out to meet a friend. I gave up after a while. Started telling my friends I didn’t want to go out, that I’d rather stay home. They thought I didn’t like them. Big messy downward spiral – can you see it?
Anyway, when I started driving, I started hanging out more. I started hanging out with this woman who had left home when she was 16. We went to a coffee shop and did our homework together. Calculus. How bad-ass is that :lol:? But she was cool. She had punk dyed hair. She told me a hilarious story about a bad dye job once where she came out of the salon okay, but over the next couple of days…clump…clump… Most of her hair came out. She had to get a spiky hair cut. She missed her long hair. I admired how she’d left home, stuck up for herself. She’s the one I rode around with listening to classic rock, wondering if I’d heard it all before or was losing my mind.
But I’d be out with her, studying. And feeling so, so guilty. I’d start whining about how worried mom would be, and she’d smack me back to my senses and remind me that we were STUDYING. So I’d stay out late with her, and when I got home, mom would be sniffling on the couch: Are you having fun out there? I just miss you so much. You used to be so little. What happened to that girl who used to be so little?
All I could think was, WHAT?!? You miss me NOW? Where do you get off? You’re crying? Over ME? No. I’m not buying it.
But of course I’d buckle. How bad am I to think these horrible things? Of course she misses me. I’m going out more now. Things are changing. At least she’s not yelling at me to stay home and be home by 10, which is what I expected. I had no curfew. Geez. Of course I didn’t have a curfew. I could take care of myself, right? Just as long as I didn’t interfere.
--- Quote ---OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you. But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you. Maybe he won't comply at all. He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.
FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.
FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds. To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.
MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not fulfilling promises. As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.
PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.
CHRONIC LATENESS & FORGETFULNESS - One of the most infuriating & inconsiderate of all p/a traits is his inability to arrive on time. By keeping you waiting, he sets the ground rules of the relationship. And his selective forgetting - used only when he wants to avoid an obligation.
AMBIGUITY - He is master of mixed messages and sitting on fences. When he tells you something, you may still walk away wondering if he actually said yes or no.
--- End quote ---
I can think of a million examples of these traits. It was just life. As I said above, I have to be very careful with my mom because if I ask the question in the wrong way, or if I ask her twice, or if I ask her at the wrong time, she’ll close up and refuse whatever I’m asking – not openly of course – and it’ll never happen. So yeah, as you said, I had to learn to be manipulative with her.
A month before my junior year in college, my dad dropped a bomb on me. He wasn’t going to pay for my college tuition anymore. He’d spent his entire inheritance (on a second home, on a third floor addition to that home, on renovations of the entire house, on himself in a million other ways) – part of which was to be reserved for my education, according to my grandfather before he died.
Mom and I scrambled. To her credit, she used up her savings to keep me in college. Not that I didn’t hear about it over and over again after that. How my dad had ruined her life by taking all her savings. Savings she’d worked all her life to save up. How she'd lost all her security. She fell into a severe depression and lost her job (the real beginning of the current spiral downward, I think). Did it make me feel like I’d stolen her money? Did I feel her depression was my fault? Absolutely.
But…my school was expensive. Mom’s savings hardly made a dent. I needed to be on financial aid. But…in order to apply for financial aid, the school needed my mom’s financial statements. Tax forms, etc. She put it off. Week after week. Promises that she’d send it in. Tomorrow. In a week. Day after day went by. No forms from Mom.
I signed up in the student work program, but because of the late notice before starting the year, there weren’t many jobs left on campus, so the financial aid office took care of me and gave me a job there. I was surrounded by the issue of financial aid. Every day. No escape. I filed other family’s statements away. Other mothers’ pleas to help their children. Other mothers’ paperwork. Other families struggling. Nothing from my mom.
That’s when I had my first major panic attack – trying to be strong and keep up my studies. Trying to comfort my dad by telling him I understood about the money and this wouldn’t affect our relationship that we’d fought hard for (HA! We. As if. :roll: The peace I’d fought for between us). Trying to find new and creative ways of asking my mom to send the damn paperwork without letting on that I was asking her to send the damn paperwork. :roll: And then I started dating an emotionally unavailable guy. CRACK. SPLIT. CRASH.
That was fall term. When I went home that winter break, that’s when mom told me I didn’t contribute a #@$% thing to the household. Irony?
----------
Okay…that’s all the poison I can stand for now. :lol:
((((((((BIG HIGS)))))))))
Wildflower
Portia:
aurghhhhh...! Wrah! That's how your parents make me feel!
How d'ya feel about money now WF? Are you super-independent with money? And your work....your boss obviously values you a lot, implying you always give more and maybe it's ok to give the norm? Don't give too much please.
--- Quote ---Because I've done a good job with some hard, crappy, impossibly difficult stuff - and all I have to show for it is being mildly neurotic in the eyes of the average person. Sometimes I just wish I weren't struggling so hard just to be normal. And I wish I could say to people who don't understand, my parents are crazy but that doesn't mean you can't trust me because I've earned my way back into normal life.
--- End quote ---
Where are those average people then? Just to be normal eh? Scratch anybody's surface and 99.9% of the (western) human race are loons of some sort. (Half my neighbours are. Just discovered one went to top himself a coupla years ago (he didn't) but he's a manic/dep. I had no idea and I see him all the time. 'bout time I started looking at other people a little more closely I think.)
You don't have to pay for your parents' f*ck ups. You don't have to earn anything. You ARE part of normal life. It really really really IS everyone else. You know the thought - 'is it me or is everyone else crazy today?' - hey, I keep reading you and well, I reckon it's everyone else. I'm serious. Damn it, WF, you're above average for god's sake and it makes me mad to think you're giving your employer more than required. Work isn't personal - it doesn't define you (I guess unless you're an artist). Sorry, but I made the mistake of letting work partly define me and I'm sooooo anti-it now that it's a bit of a crusade! P furry ear stroke
Anonymous:
Hi Wildflower, :D
--- Quote ---I'm really glad you've been thinking about it, too. Finding how it fits your mom and stuff. Can I ask you something? Does it make her less scary? I mean, yeah, she's a psychopath, but does it make it easier to handle if you can identify some act as a P/A thing?
--- End quote ---
Yes, and no. Personally, physically I"m not scared of her anymore. Because she's not around, I suppose. But I know what she's capable of, so I think if I was to ever have her around again I would be. I've told a lot of stories here about her. But no the worst ones. It's inappropriate and probably illegal. Those ones, I should/could only ever go to the police with. But I have no evidence or proof, they were such along time ago. Just my own 'suspicions and knowing'.
My husband has, at times, wanted me to do this, but I haven't. He kind of agrees with me though, and I'm convinced it would only appear like 'sour-grapes'. Let me just say this, I really hope she gets a pang of conscience before she dies and leaves a confession note of sorts. And not just die, taking the secrets of her foul deeds to be buried with her. I can't really say any more than that.
--- Quote ---And yeah, your ex leaving you like that at the shopping center? Why, cos he had so many more important things to do? Like saving the planet? :roll:
--- End quote ---
Yes, I remember geting home and he was in his usual spot on the lounge, watching TV.
--- Quote ---Geez, me too. :roll: I had this whole 'system' worked out where I would walk this high wire trying to get anything - ANYTHING - from my mom. Right down to timing my questions...spacing them out...never asking more than twice....making her think it was her idea.
--- End quote ---
I completely understand. Talk about making the simplest, most basic
issues of childhood, like communicating our needs, into a battle-field.
--- Quote ---??? If I do nothing...and she commits suicide...
--- End quote ---
This has to be the ultimate weapon of mass mainipulation doesn't it? The ultimate form of manipulation and control. This one makes sure we're always keeping one eye focussed on them and don't stray too far, or apply too much pressure on them, or too many expectaions on them. WTF
--- Quote ---"and you think THIS is BETTER???"
--- End quote ---
I know, but it's not our intention to explode/implode is it? We're just trying to keep it in, usually to keep the peace. Very juvenile, isn't it? It doesn't work. The sooner we get past that one the better. :D
--- Quote ---"Both my parents are INSANE - so don't bother with me 'cos with TWO parents like that, I gotta be INSANE too" Know what I mean? Arrrrghhhh :evil:
But I've worked and worked and worked to pull my life together and not be messed up like them. Now at least I believe in myself enough to know that I'm not crazy or a bad person - just saddled with some unhealthy habits. But I still hate trying to explain this to strangers - because they can't know how much work I've done. My closest friends don't even know how much work I've done. And you know what? Sometimes that makes me mad. You know why? Because I've done a good job with some hard, crappy, impossibly difficult stuff - and all I have to show for it is being mildly neurotic in the eyes of the average person. Sometimes I just wish I weren't struggling so hard just to be normal. And I wish I could say to people who don't understand, my parents are crazy but that doesn't mean you can't trust me because I've earned my way back into normal life.
I RESENT MY PARENTS FOR GIVING ME THIS CRAP.
I'M TIRED OF PAYING FOR SOMETHING THAT ISN'T MY FAULT.
--- End quote ---
Good on your boss for being understanding, but can I say, I'm with Portia, don't push yourself. Especially not to compensate. That's often what we do when one part of our mind/life seems so messy an screwed up and impossible to handle. We try to 'prove' it wrong by being totally cool, together and a success in some other way/s.
My husband does this too. I guess I probably do too. But I'm much more aware of it in him. He's in a lot of ways, socially retarded. Hope he doesn't read this!! :wink: And he's a bit of a mis-firer in personal relationships. But he feels and is convinced that he well and truly disproves this 'myth' about himself because he's number one at his work.
It doesn't disprove anything in my eyes. They are completely seperate. But he needs the validation it gives him, and for years that validation has 'enabled' him to be a good an proper, fair bastard at home. I don't let him off the hook any more.
This is me when I'm in lecture mode to home at him, (note all the 'talking at' and 'telling him' tone. Very N of me hahahah)
"If you could rectify the disparity in your priorities, and you put the time and effort into being as good a friend, father, husband, etc as do at being and maintaining being number one at work , you'd be the happiest man on earth". He's sort of starting to get it.
I know you're doing the exact opposite to my husband, you've been working on it for years, and recently to the point that you felt that your work was suffering and spoke to your boss about it. But his observation isn't to be ignored. "Tired of being super-human" is an interesting comment. Is he being ambiguous? Is he saying something much more there?
Is he hinting at perfectionism?
Reluctance to delegate?
Lack of trust in others abilities & competencies?
Fear of failure?
Emotional Fatigue?
Ignore this if yoou want to, they are just questions coming from my own personal history and experience. How that comment would have caused knee-jerk reacions in me.
I had a team in one place I worked and I was a very incompetent delegator, and a control-freak. I was paranoid when I had to leave the place even for lunch. Then I had time off, got sick ((hahahah of course, who wouldn't behaving like that) and when I got back to work, man did I notice how skillful that team was without me. How irrelevant my role was really. I was like a big hole in the sand at the waters edge, and the wave comes in and pooouf, it's dissappeared. Some might say, "Oh well that was a result of the good training you gave them."
Yes, yes, I know, but I wasn't allowing them the space to work autonomously previously. How I must have frustrated them. But I learned a good lesson there which I've translated into a powerful parenting skill. Teach them and then let them practice. Even if it means making a mess. hahah or burning a hole in it.
Anyway, I'm off to your next post now, :D
(((HIGS)))
CG
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