healing

[Wildflower]

Like R, I’m wondering if I should say what I’m thinking about all the stories you must have in you – and how to get them out.  I guess I don’t really think it’s a matter of whether to get them out.  More like when.  I think you’ve been saying this in a different way with the string analogy, but I want to try to restate it in my own words a little.  I think this is such an important question/problem in the process healing.

If you were to roll up your sleeves and say, okay all you bad memories, time to come out now!  I’m going to deal with each and everyone one of you right now and I won’t stop until I’ve gotten to the heart of all of you.  Oooof.  Oh, boy.  You’d be crushed.  You might make it through 3.  Maybe even 10.  But by 20, I suspect we’d be hauling you off to the hospital.  Even if you COULD handle more, you’re right that you’d be missing out on life if you spent the next year solely examining these memories.

But sometimes, these memories come at US.  And sometimes in floods.  Because, I believe, we’re supposed to be dealing with them now.  Now is the right time.  And they’re tugging on our sleeves saying, listen.  Listen.  I’ve got something big to say.  Some of these memories may be complex and may need to have a few pow wows with us over the years to finally get their message across.  Some of them are concise little ‘ah-ha’ moments.

And then there are the times when we feel stuck (I’m really just brainstorming here, so who knows if this makes any sense).  We feel trapped, and the memories don’t come at us – so we DO have to go in.  But we need a lifeline when we do.  Kind of like in Poltergeist (did you ever see that?  I know you don’t like violent movies).  They had to wrap a line around the dad so he could go into the spirit world to find his little girl.  He almost got lost in there with her, but he had a lifeline, and he was pulled to safety holding Carol Anne – and covered in red jello.

I was thinking last night of asking you a question, giving you a framework, giving you a lifeline?  But then I talked myself out of it because I think maybe you know the answer already and have said it – but I’m not hearing it.  But is there a question you have for your mother?  Or are these memories just cropping up?  Is there something they’re trying to tell you?

Wildflower

[Anonymous]

I guess that’s the delayed Narcissistic Rage in full flow? I wonder how easy it is for ‘them’ to delay like that. Yikes, a warning to all of us. You’ve made me realise that my ex-step-mother was an N too. I had little to do with her but that story sounded like her style and ‘pop!’ into my head it came.

P

Your comment made me think and I realised something. I think for my mother it is so very easy to delay, because revenge IS, (I repeat) IS her life. She could be a used as the dictionary definition of the word. The thesaurus version could have so many names of other mothers here. But my mother, to me, is like the world's No 1 Cordon Bleu chef of revenge. She will not be rushed, and all the ingredients have to be just right, and her timing is impeccable. And she loves the horror and shock and damage her revenge causes which somehow she interprets and receives as recognition and accolades and applause at her craft.

Your ex-stepmother, so she was married to your dad. Well then, you were lucky if you didn't have much to do with her. I can't imagine having my mother as a step-mother. I saw what she did to a few step-kids and de-facto step-kids she's had at different times. (Shudder). The poor things. She's so heartless, she could and used to turn their own father's against them (consciously and deliberately) and then brag about her techniques to me later. She can't share anyone.

That was the common theme with nearly all her guys, they were all so pussy-whipped and so easily manipulated to believe whatever lies she'd make up about their kids. She had great success in turning quite a few fathers against their own children! Their own flesh and blood. Bloody idiots.

Bye
CG

[Wildflower]

She certainly seems to have that revenge thing down, no argument here. Yikes.

What was worthy of revenge in her book?  Disagreeing with her?  Breathing?  The horrible things she did to those step-children....was she getting revenge on them, too?

Just curious...

Sorry...instead of posting yet another, I'm just going to edit this in:

My mother did a good job of getting me to doubt everything and everyone (including myself) EXCEPT her actions, choices and opinions. I used to think I was crazy because my life was crazy. I don't anymore, not seriously anyway.

I used to try to explain to her, "Just because I don't feel the same way about someone that you do doesn't mean I'm your enemy." She always expected me to like who she liked, and to hate who she hated. Otherwise I was disloyal and deserving of cruel and wicked treatment.

This has been sticking to the roof of my mouth for a couple of days.  Am I pushing you?  I really, truly hope not (but just say the word).  Did she get you to doubt yourself by terrorizing you with the thought of revenge?  Brainwashing you through fear?

I reeeeeeallly don't want you to feel like you have to answer this if it's too much (if it is, tell me and I'll remove it so you don't feel the need to pick at a bad wound).

Wildflower

[Wildflower]

P.S.  When I first started posting on this board, there was a big debate going on about being Guest, and I remember thinking, hey, this Guest who's replying to my posts...he/she is really great and helpful.  I can usually identify your sense of humor but I don't want to rope random Guest posts into you, CG.  I'm so happy, though, that it was you who was there in the beginning.  And you who wrote the commune postings .

[Anonymous]

Hi Rosencrantz and Wildflower and Portia,

Thankyou so much for your warm and caring responses. Oh My Gosh.   I feel so fortunate to have come across you.

I've got a confession to make. I'm lousy at recognising when I'm repeating mistakes. Lousy! Lousy! I haven't just got blind spots. I'm totally emotionally visually impaired when it comes to myself.

I can see it in others. Or if it's about other people, and can see when other people are making the same mistakes over and over. Doesn't that make me the clever one?

That's why I'm such a useless little shit in group therapy. I'm not useless regarding everyone else's progress, just regarding my own!

Maybe I will blow up and burst one day!    Yeah, it would be very messy, wouldn't it. And what a wonderful mother I'd have been, leaving a huge mess for my kids to have to deal with, or for them to have to clean it up for me.    I'd hate myself forever. So I'd better attend to it hey?

And I think I do seep!    (Emoticon for YYUUKK!!!)

You know I'm lousy when the camera zooms in on me. I'm fine, very comfortable off in the corner telling one of my stories on my terms, or unconsciously being colourful jester, entertaining naturally and making a few people laugh. But put the spotlight on me so everyone's watching and can hear and I'm outta there.

Duh!!  I think it's some form of avoidance. Or maybe it's a control thing. I feel so exposed when I become the focus of someone else's attention.

Maybe that's why I married a Narcissist. Now there's a thought.!!!    
(Memo to self - File that thought for further analysis.)

Like now, with both of you directing your attention to me. Any zeroing in on me gets me squirming, BIG TIME. I'd have usually exited by now, cause I'm feeling under the spotlight and not the one in control and I get very uncomfortable.

So I'm resisitng that urge to hide. Why? First, because I wouldn't want either of you to think that you'd offended me. You haven't. And second, I think because I've come to trust you both over the past couple of weeks.      There's a turn up for the books. Add also because I'm smart enough to know this is important to me, and really why I came here, to sort out some of this crap.

I know you are both (R & W) saying some really valuable stuff in your posts. On one level I feel pricked and prodded and there's a conviction in me to look deeper. And it's like I'm a  total retard in this area, or I'm really hard of hearing or maybe even stone-deaf emotionally. Anyway, I'm getting some time on my own this weekend. I intend to re-read Rosencrantz's and Wildflower's posts and if you feel inclined to add anymore stuff that you think may assist please feel free. And please don't apologise for speaking your mind here and sharing your thoughts, I'm soooo open to you and pleased that you have, and pleased that I haven't run away.

I cheer you on, appreciate you greatly and shout, "Sock it to me me baby."

Thanks

CG

PS, You're right Wildflower, I've never watched that movie. I'd drop dead with a mouth full off popcorn in the first scary scene. Meanwhile, everyone else in the theatre would be screaming and jumping with fright and observing how rigid, still and unmoved I was. They'd probably even be thinking how totally cool I was, that I wasn't affected by the horror at all.

[Wildflower]

Hi Guest,

I was doing some surfing (instead of sleeping ) when you posted and I just have to say a million times no.  You are NOT retarded.  You are amazing.  That you survived your 'mother' so beautifully - and I mean, really, your voice is so beautiful.  And kind.  And comforting.  Your humor is wonderful, and I can imagine it has carried you through many a tough situation.  

You may be full of lead from getting fired at or even getting caught in the cross-fire, or maybe you look like a colander, but everything you did - including the avoidance - got you here, didn't it?  And now, having had the peace of years away from your mother, you're ready to do some incredibly difficult work and face such yukky memories?  No.  You're not retarded.  You're brave and strong.  And really.  Just a very short time ago, you were working through some tough stuff to get to the 'discrediting the witness' conclusion.  It's okay to take your time through this.  As you said, one mountain at at time.

Stay with us.  You don't have to be CG if it's too difficult sometimes, but stay.

Wildflower

[Anonymous]

PPS,
Wildflower, I forgot to add what I'd say to my mother if I thought I wasn't wasting my breath and she would hear.

Once I asked her why she hated me, and she said, "Because you remind me so much of your father. You even look like him." I believe she meant that, and it makes sense. She hated him in ways words can't describe.

Any questions I may have about her are generally answered by what she said. Even basic questions like, "Why didn't you feed me? Why did I have to scrounge for food? Why didn't you buy me clothes, or take me on holidays? Why did you kill my dog? Why did you......" Blaah Blah Bla!

The bitch even bought my friends new clothes and took them on holidays. Unbelievable. Ouch. And that one hurt.

Then she started doing the same with my children (and yes, they look like me), that was when I took my stand. She injured them badly a couple of times before I cut her off. I don't know if I have any question for her now. I don't think I do.

CG

[rosencrantz]

Stay with us. You don't have to be CG if it's too difficult sometimes, but stay.

Isn't that a wonderful thing to say.  Is your heart bursting, CG?  Mine is!!  

And I want to say I think your heart is wonderful.  You saved my life!!!  Without you I wouldn't have got where I got in the past couple of weeks.  And, if you've had a few other names and guises here, well, I take all of you - so don't think you're only acceptable as 'C'G!!

I just wondered who your mother REALLY wanted revenge on - who did the first evil deed that she's STILL trying to get even for??  

jumping with fright and observing how rigid, still and unmoved I was

My thought was, knowing just a smidgeon of your past, that you were rigid with fear - that the fear had been so great (of things she did) (AND your own rage??) that you were rigidly keeping it out of sight. Like being 'in shock'.

Thanks for being so courageous as to stay.  I'd miss you if you went!  And you're brilliant.  If I'm going to have to recognise my own 'power' and 'talent' and intelligence etc, (urgh) well there aren't many people I'd genuinely bow to - I bow to you!

Take care
R

[Anonymous]

Thanks so much guys, and I'm a little embarrassed but I really want to tell you that I value you in my life.

CG

[rosencrantz]

LOL - You're embarrassed?  I'm absolutely terrified   I've now related in positive and specific terms with you, with Portia and with Wildflower IN PUBLIC.  I'm waiting for my mother to come out of the closet with a machine gun, all barrels firing (mixed metaphor?) - rat-at-tat...rat-at-tat...rat-at-tat...

"You can only relate to me," she'll cry.  "How dare you relate to other people.  How dare you get so close.  How dare you not put me at the centre of your universe.  I am so (frightened and) enraged I will destroy you all..." (Crikey, she really is only a few months old!!!  Her brain never made any neural connections beyond the breast-feeding stage.)

[I'm about to go off at a total tangent so I'll stop there!  )
R

[Portia]

Dear CG, I read this and instinctively put my face in my hands (I’m not very instinctive with body language, always try to control the signals):

“Because you remind me so much of your father. You even look like him."

Me too, I look like my Dad I mean, we’d both be surprised if I looked like your Dad right?

She took out her rage and revenge on your father, on you, didn’t she? Even down to the having sex while you were around. Imagine you were your Dad instead. Now it makes sense....

Oh,….here I go again….connections sparking because I just told myself to imagine that! Ha ha, brain’s off again! It’s like being in a three-dimensional maze on a rollercoaster: up and down those dead-ends, or peeking into corners and finding a dead rabbit to hang onto and take up another route…who killed this rabbit? I demand to know! These rollercoaster mazes can make you as sick as hell but there ‘I’ am at the centre, shouting ‘please come and get me!’

(Don’t ask me who I was channelling then coz I don’t know! I look at the words in amazement.   Do you want them? Quick, take them off me…)

A quick ‘Thank you’ all….for your replies.. including Dawning!! on my new thread…will be back on it soon. Need to let it simmer. Love and relating in public (emoticon: dirty raincoat flasher revealing red beating heart!) P

Hey R your mother is the baby in the example of good mothering in Secunda’s book? Who won’t let Mummy talk to her friend?!

[rosencrantz]

She took out her rage and revenge on your father, on you, didn’t she?

Now THAT is clever - wot a smart connection to make!!  That's sooo outside my experience.  I look and sound like my mother.  Well, I did in my teens and 20s.   The one thing about me that looks like my father are my eyes.  His whole family have a distinctive look about the eyes.  And my mother has always spitefully (oooh, first time I used that word in this context) criticized me for that.  

"You've got the (last name) eyes," she'd say with disdain - like I'd shamed her for choosing them and not being the perfect specimen of HER version of womanhood!!!  "You've chosen not to look exactly llike me, just to spite me!!"  Just as well I'm not into plastic surgery!!!

Well, I love my dad for his (last name) eyes!  And I love the 7 year old in the photo, too!  Like I used to say to my son about the things he didn't like which are distinctive about him - "That's what makes you special - how else would I have known you amongst all those other babies after  you were born!!!  I'll ALWAYS know who you are, and find you again, no matter what!"    

Anyway, off on a tangent of my own again.  Portia - the connections you make always seem spot-on to me!!  I love the way you wrote about 'channelling'  - I know what you mean, what a great way to express it.  Remember me telling you how you remind me I'm still in touch with reality when I think I may have gone way too 'deep' and 'lost it' - well that's what I meant!!    

We're off on a bear hunt...We're going to catch a big one.
What a beautiful day! We're not scared.
Oh-oh! We can't go over it. We can't go under it.
Oh, no! We'll have to go through it!
TTFN
R
PS Can't find that section in Secunda - got a chapter or page number???

[Portia]

Ah. I gave you the wrong book! It’s in ‘Why is it always about you?’ – Hotchkiss page 43, Emily: a calm place to grow. It’s a piece on how a great mother ‘separates’. I will scan and email if you don’t have it – let me know (breaking copyright? Well, it’s not searchable on Amazon.com…) P

[rosencrantz]

Check!  I think I have every book on narcissism that was ever published!!!

(But I don't think I referred to a single one during my little 'crisis'!!  All the information went out of my head.  I let go the side of the swimming pool and struck out for the middle.  I was 'drowning not waving' for a while but then it got to be quite fun!!!  A bit like playing in the pool knowing you can swim like a dolphin and not being worried you'll drown or that you'll be all alone in the wide, wide sea - it's a swimming pool and it's open to the public - lots of other people swimming here, too!!!  )

Oh, not page 43 - much younger than that.  Pre-language.  

When my father was...you know...I was staying in a hotel and visiting my father in hospital so I was being in touch with my mother just such a small amount of time, but I could feel myself descending into this chasm of masochistic servitude. I was terrified my confidence would zap out completely and I'd not have enough strength or 'nerve' to cope with the four hour drive home - and so I left, escaped, skipped out on my father, actually  

Anyway, I remember talking to my H on the phone from the hotel explaining how I felt and had this strange image that somehow my mother saw me as a 'stone'.  Then I realised it was one of those strange-looking succulents called 'stone' plants.  http://www.hort.wisc.edu/mastergardener/Features/indoorplants/lithops/lithops.htm (good picture about half way down if you don't know what it is!)

As I tried to penetrate what this image was telling me, it became like a spineless hedgehog with a tiny snout peeking out.  Peculiar, but how appropriate - spineless!  Then suddenly one day the real meaning popped out.  A breast!  An empty breast - the snout was the nipple.  (Can't get milk out of a stone!!)  And the name Melanie Klein's 'good breast, bad breast' popped into my mind!  

I realise this sounds pretty weird and I'd love it if someone popped onto the board and said 'oh, yes - I recognise what that all means.  That's a perfectly acceptable, normal viewpoint to take.  Actually that's quite insightful of you'!!  (I'm not 'allowed' to understand you see!!)

But this is the 'new me' (panic and shame rising nevertheless) and, propelled to 'understand' what I seem to think I know, I'm having a search on the internet...

Melanie Klein : The first three months of life, she calls the paranoid-schizoidposition. Klein postulates that the baby goes through a range of good and bad feelings, identified with the full and empty breast. When thebaby is fed and satisfied, it feels good and its anxiety abates. Whenthe breast is empty, the baby too feels empty and bad. Klein postulates that the baby deals with its bad feelings by projecting them outside itself, hence the term paranoid, from whence the baby feels persecuted. At this stage the baby does not know what to do withthese persecutory feelings. But it experiences destructive rage.

In the following three months the baby experiences the breast and thus the mother as a whole and can tackle its bad feelings withreparation. The young child experiences repeatedly persecution, loss,guilt and reparation. I know many question the validity of Klein'stheories on the early months but we can see it in adult life with thepersistent projection of bad feelings in paranoid people and thecapacity in mature people to deal with anger and hurt by makingreparation.

Aha - and I now see that Melanie Klein seems to be where the concept of projective identification and splitting (black and white thinking) come from which are set out in the Nina Brown books!

So, under stress, experiencing loss, my mother goes into that schizoid position...everyone is totally good or totally bad so if you withold something she wants you're evil personified!!!

Blah, blah, blah. Not going to risk any more today.  I didn't 'ask' to understand it from that point of view.  I feel so guilty for doing so.  I don't even claim to 'understand'!  But that's how I 'see' her and how I see where she's coming from.  I don't even know what to 'do' with it!  It's just easier to say I'm a nutcase, don't know what I'm talking about!!!!!  Going down the plughole again!!!!!

Coming up again!  This means that any object which threatens the exclusive possession of the idealised breast/mother is felt as a persecutor and has projected into it all the hostile feelings

So there!          
R

[Nikole]

B) As I looked back with my new less-critical eyes, I saw a wake of destruction behind me, both of myself and others.  How much time have I wasted with all these negative feelings?  How many people have I hurt - people I cared about, people I may never be able to face again – because I was lashing out?

 
I yearn for the day that I wake up with less cynical eyes, but I know that isn’t going to happen any day soon. I feel like I can’t just wake up one day and be transformed. The reality is that I can’t just see someone for who and what they are, I scrutinize them in every possible aspect, right down to the last minuscule detail. I can’t see someone for the great person they are or the gifts they have, I see them for their weaknesses, flaws, mistakes, and faults. I know I have to stop this destructive behavior... I am making progress slowly, it’s a day-to-day thing, but one day, I hope to achieve what you have achieved, and I am determined to do so.
 
Wildflower, I commend you on your strength and self perseverance. You have conquered all the negativity in your life and brought with it such a phenomenal radiance of positivity.

Thank you for sharing, it was truly inspiring! It sort of gave me a sense of hope, thank you again, it helped tremendously.

Take care of yourself,
- Nikole