healing

[Anonymous]

Nikole, what a lovely recognition of Wildflower, and you sound like you're well on the road to achieving your goal. All we need really are a few lights to mark the way, don't way.

( )

CG

[Anonymous]

She took out her rage and revenge on your father, on you, didn’t she? Even down to the having sex while you were around. Imagine you were your Dad instead. Now it makes sense....

Oh,….here I go again….connections sparking because I just told myself to imagine that! Ha ha, brain’s off again! It’s like being in a three-dimensional maze on a rollercoaster: up and down those dead-ends, or peeking into corners and finding a dead rabbit to hang onto and take up another route…who killed this rabbit? I demand to know! These rollercoaster mazes can make you as sick as hell but there ‘I’ am at the centre, shouting ‘please come and get me!’

(Don’t ask me who I was channelling then coz I don’t know! I look at the words in amazement.   Do you want them? Quick, take them off me…)

Hey R your mother is the baby in the example of good mothering in Secunda’s book? Who won’t let Mummy talk to her friend?!

Thanks Portia for the        moment. Damn that was a mighty fine connection. I wouldn't have made that one in a million years. Yes, I can 'SEE' it   .

Why did it make me laugh.    That doesn't seem appropriate does it, because it's not funny. I tend to do that though, when I'm schocked or frightened or trying to deal with some crap or another. Find something funny in it. It relieves the presure somehow. I laugh and laugh till my head falls off, and then stop and go to work on the problem.

I think the concept of her shagging in front of me is so close to sexual abuse. I've always had trouble making the connection with certain of her behaviours and linking them to sexual abuse. Although, in one small dark crevice, high in the hills of left brain, the thought lurks that mothers who tell their 6 year old of the value of oral over other forms of sex does consitute some form of sexual abuse. Did you say your mum did the same type of thing to you?

And boy, am I so glad I don't look like her. I'd get rid of all the mirrors if I did.  I gotta say Portia, you're channeling scenarios are hilarious, brilliant. Where do they come from??? Have you worked that out???

Thanks for your comments, one more page completed my mystery book.


CG

[Anonymous]

 
I'm waiting for my mother to come out of the closet with a machine gun, all barrels firing (mixed metaphor?) - rat-at-tat...rat-at-tat...rat-at-tat...

"You can only relate to me," she'll cry.  

"How dare you relate to other people.  

How dare you get so close.  

How dare you not put me at the centre of your universe.  

I am so (frightened and) enraged I will destroy you all..." R

This made me think.    My mother would love that I'm here dealing with issues that she created and so often talking about her and her antics. Somehow I just 'know' she'd be tickled pink by being talked about. It wouldn't matter to her that she's a 'negative' centre and topic of conversation in this particular part of my universe. She'd still love it.

Sometimes I think I'll add a distorted type of Maunchausen (however it'd spelt) by proxy syndrome to her list of ailments.

And I went to the stoneplant site. I'm a bit of a cacti and succulent 'buff'. I love those plants. They look like seed pods just sitting there, lifeless on top of the soil. But like so many cacti and succulents, hang around for a while and the loveliest flowers appear.

Good thoughts about the full breast empty breast too. Wow    
Back in my hippie days I read a book which said to have happy calm placid babies you were supposed to let your babies just hang off your tits all day. So I did. My mother was horrified. Embarrassed. Disgusted. She always bragged that why she had such a great bust was because she never breast fed. Thank goodness. I couldn't afford the therapy it would take to get that image out of my mind. YUUK.

Anyway, as I was saying, I used to have a baby latched on 24/7, just feeding whenever, and I loved it. She was right, all that sucking and gravity has had the effect of making my tits look like a pair of razor strops, but hey, who cares! So what if they're 18 inches long and 3 inches wide. They roll up quite nicely and fit neatly into my 34b bra.

CG

[Anonymous]

She certainly seems to have that revenge thing down, no argument here. Yikes.

What was worthy of revenge in her book?  Disagreeing with her?  Breathing?  The horrible things she did to those step-children....was she getting revenge on them, too?

Just curious...

Sorry...instead of posting yet another, I'm just going to edit this in:

My mother did a good job of getting me to doubt everything and everyone (including myself) EXCEPT her actions, choices and opinions. I used to think I was crazy because my life was crazy. I don't anymore, not seriously anyway.

I used to try to explain to her, "Just because I don't feel the same way about someone that you do doesn't mean I'm your enemy." She always expected me to like who she liked, and to hate who she hated. Otherwise I was disloyal and deserving of cruel and wicked treatment.

This has been sticking to the roof of my mouth for a couple of days.  Am I pushing you?  I really, truly hope not (but just say the word).  Did she get you to doubt yourself by terrorizing you with the thought of revenge?  Brainwashing you through fear?

I reeeeeeallly don't want you to feel like you have to answer this if it's too much (if it is, tell me and I'll remove it so you don't feel the need to pick at a bad wound).

Wildflower

I missed this question Wildflower, and no it doesn't worry me talking about it. She has to be the centre of attention. That's it. And it's not the centre of attention with others as accessories. It's total attention. She can't share anything. If I used a different brand hair dye or butter to one she "suggested' she'd think I was doing it on purpose. It sounds ridiculous, but I'm using the simplest examples of times she's gone totally nutso at me as an adult, in my own house.

I have a routine, I cook on Saturday afternoons. I love it, and I make a big mess, because I cook most of the weeks meals then and freeze them. Lasagne, quiche, vege pies, lentils etc. She came me to stay once and abused, and I mean abused me for messing up 'my' kitchen. She accused me of trying to 'play' the perfect mother. "Who did I think I kidding?"

She lived with a rich widower guy once who owned a large shopping centre. He had a young son (about 12 or 13) away at boarding school who only came home on holidays. She couldn't stand him coming home, so she made bookings for him at holiday camps. One time he refused to go and kicked up a stink so his dad let him come home instead. Meanwhile, she'd knitted him the boy a lovely jumper    And she was so 'loving' to the boy in front of his dad. His dad was completely sucked in, and thrilled at how much she showed 'love' to his motherless son by knitting him a jumper. She never knitted me a bloody jumper. I didn't even know the silly cow could knit that well. Maybe she paid someone to knit it??

Anyway, she buried it (the jumper) in the back yard, and she set it up for the father to 'find' it when he was down the back. He beat the crap out of the boy, because of how 'hurt' my mother was by him 'burying' the jumper. The boy never came home for holidays again while my mother was on the scene. She told me about it later and thought she was fantastic. That poor kid.

So to answer your question. Anything was worthy of her revenge. I could never be sure. You know, she couldn't handle one single feeling of discomfort or not being worshipped. Her relationships only ever last to near the end of the honeymoon phase. Start putting one expectation on her and she turns homicidal. Like let's try a simple, "What's for dinner?" You'll only ask that question once. Cause you'll find out 3 months later that that beautiful dinner she prepared for you the night after, you know the one with that tangy white sauce that you complimented her on, had cat's piss in it. Bloody hell!! So I always had to think hard before saying something simple like, "Isn't it a nice day," if she didn't think it was, or vice versa.

Like she told me that she could never forgive me for making her a grandmother. She hates it! I guess becoming a grandmother made her feel old. It was also her attempting to spoil the moment when my first child was born and to make it all about her somehow.

As if I had a baby for one reason only, to ruin her life and make her feel old. Oh give me a break mother! And hey guess what mother, it wasn't about you at all.

CG

[Anonymous]

I'm gonna shutup now, I just looked and that's 4 posts in a row on this thread. Who's voiceless? Not me obviously.

CG

[rosencrantz]

Go with the flow, CG   go with the flow    I was on a roll there and felt mightily cut off when you stopped!!!  

My mother screwed up my mind because HERS was screwed up but she's a sad person really - not very effective in the wider world and no insight at all.  I guess what she's been doing to me as an adult has been her version of revenge but totally self-defeating and hurts herself more than anybody else. And then going totally 'psychotic' when faced with loss.   It's rather ironic that, as I get to grips with it all, the worst of her behaviour is probably fading. But at least this time I don't get to think I 'made it all up'.  It really happened!!!

But your mother really knew what she was doing and 'intended' it, too.  The word 'sick' is tip-toeing off my tongue.  But it's still 'just' anger!!!???
My mother wanted to express her anger by wreaking havoc and so did yours.  At least I 'did' something to deserve it (ie left home) but you didn't!!!  There was no rhyme or reason.  Did you make up reasons ('if I were different then...'; 'it's because I did x').  

When I was little 'all' mine wanted to do was control me and 'pretended' she was controlling everything else.  But your role was as a convenient scapegoat, the one she'd use as a target for creative vengefulness if no-one else was around - ???  Mind you, you were also her confidante.  There's some 'sanity' in knowing what she did and how she did it - she gave herself away!  She gave you clues so you could 'stop' her mess, stop her messing you up too much!!!???

That just reminded me of some people here on the board who tried to  stir things up then said, like, oh thank you for making my mean things 'nice' - as if they had no responsibility over their own actions or for what was happening generally!!!  Still don't get it but I see it.

What I see inside you, CG (then, not now) is the little girl transformed by all that horror you saw and experienced into that painting 'The Cry'.  Frozen in time.  That child needs the biggest and longest hug before she'll ever feel your warmth, let alone look at you.  And there's only you who can do it, CG.   You've got the capacity - has this already been done in your life - or is it yet to be done???

Take care
R

[Anonymous]

Mind you, you were also her confidante.  There's some 'sanity' in knowing what she did and how she did it - she gave herself away!  She gave you clues so you could 'stop' her mess, stop her messing you up too much!!!???

R

Thanks Rosencrantz, I hadn't thought about this aspect of it clearly before.

I'm a great believer in "The sun is gonna shine tomorrow" attitude. I'm so upbeat 11 months every year. But when I do go down, I sink to depths where I think no man has gone before. (I'm sure I exaggerate on this point, but it's just how it seems at the time.)

But that was an incredibly thought provoking comment of yours, and it crystallised a recurring fleeting image I've tried to harpoon at different times. It was in being her confidante that she shot herself in the foot with me and my children. Hip hip hooray. She never got to harm my kids the way I think she was warming up to. And what she did get away with was so brief and fleeting. The little bit of harm she caused nearly a decade ago, we got over and dealt with in a very unified way as a family.

"There be scorpions." Of course, she couldn't help herself and she created a situation where my children had to be protected from her. Because I know her inside out I was able to recognised it pretty quickly!! And as a result I moved on her and was able to protect them. Thank goodness I never flinched or hesitated. I think I'd been in training for that moment all my life. And boy, did I take her to task, for first time ever.

It was a virgin moment. I was extremely anxious, clumsy and messy. But I was damned effective. My children may have witnessed her insanity and cruelty for abrief moment in their lives, but with me protecting them from her I don't think it has caused any lasting damage. I know they learned something about me then. And I gained some of my power back. There was a shift.

We relate on my terms now, and my terms are as you know "No contact."

Gosh that was insightful of you. I can see now in the light of that experience, how it was actually useful for me to have been her confidante. Otherwise, I may not have intervened so quickly and effectively on my kids behalf. Yes. I think you're spot on.

Your last part about the big hug for the inner child, I don't know. I'm not good in answering accurately in this area. Is it possible that I do that with my kids? I'm very affectionate and attentive with them, does that qualify? Is it possible I do it vicariously through them? Maybe I need to read a book about it.

My husband reckons my kids have a wow of a life because I'm making up to myself, (through them) all the things I missed out on, (food, family, friends, and fun). Since he said this I've tried to be vigilant, and make sure I don't try to live my life through them. Tricky tricky. I don't think I do, and I do try to make sure I'm not forcing them to do something they don't want to do, just because it's something I may have liked to do as a kid. I don't think I have so far, but I'm slightly paranoid about this, so       I keep checking on myself in this department.

I've even given my husband and a couple of friends permission to tell me if they observe me doing this. And asked them to tell me if they ever even think they see signs of stress in my kids from me pushing them into something. Nothing has come back yet (touch wood).

Oh my, life does become quite complicated sometimes doesn't it? Sometimes I feel like I'm trying to play 4 pianos at once. But it's worth it when someone clever comes along and does some major untangling of my big ball of string, like you just did. And shows me how something bad got turned around to be something good.

(hug) and thanks
CG

[Wildflower]

Is it okay if I bring this back over here?  I don’t want clog Dawning’s thread with any of my yucky stuff.

Wow was it great to read your vent fest on that thread.  GO CG!!!!!!!!!!  It’s simply outrageous isn’t it?  That it’s just so damn threatening to be yourself?!?

I love the differences in my children. I don't want them to be like me, eat like me, dress like me, think like me. I use your example of the joy of travel and going to interesting places with history, and meeting experiencing different cultures, tasting and enjoying local cuisine.

Why can't some parents embrace the differences in their children and learn and grow themselves from watching their children develop. All children, I believe, are gifted with their own unique personality from conception. What a tragic loss if it's not cultivated and encouraged!!!!!  

I think you just answered your own question about whether or not you were being a good mother – and why no one’s called you on that request to poke you if your kids start showing signs of stress.  You love them, and it shows!  And as for hugging that inner child who was terrorized by your mother, if you need any help, just say the word!

Oh, and here's one just for free:

((((((((((((((( C inner child G ))))))))))))))))

It's my RIGHT Damn It! But what I really resent is the momentary loss of energy and enthusiasm that I find I'm robbed of when I get trapped in an 'I find you unacceptable' (Dan Akroyd in 'Coneheads') scenario.

For the past 36 or so hours I feel like I’ve been muttering "damn it" almost continuously while dancing to blasting music because I WANT TO (damn it), walking proudly and defiantly down the street (damn it), shrugging off this monkey who is my mother breathing down my neck telling me that I’m not fit to be with other humans (damn it), and just in a complete rage at how I didn’t deserve it.  DAMN IT!!  Just like there was no reason for her to pull the emotional blackmail bit on me a few weeks ago after I’d OFFERED to help, there was no reason to beat me down.  What was so bad about me?  NOTHING.  I’m not saying I was perfect, but there was no reason to treat me that.  Period.

And talk about channeling , I don’t know where that last post directed at my mother came from, but I’ve been reading it over and over, as someone else wrote it for me to understand.  I think I’m gonna have to clutter my refrigerator with this one!  

Now I've got to get tough with protecting whoever it is who wrote that post.      

Oh, and Portia?  I laugh every time I get to the dead rabbit line (who killed this rabbit?  must find out)      

Wildflower

[Anonymous]

Is it okay if I bring this back over here?  I don’t want clog Dawning’s thread with any of my yucky stuff.

Wow was it great to read your vent fest on that thread.  GO CG!!!!!!!!!!  It’s simply outrageous isn’t it?  That it’s just so damn threatening to be yourself?!?

It's my RIGHT Damn It! But what I really resent is the momentary loss of energy and enthusiasm that I find I'm robbed of when I get trapped in an 'I find you unacceptable' (Dan Akroyd in 'Coneheads') scenario.

For the past 36 or so hours I feel like I’ve been muttering "damn it" almost continuously while dancing to blasting music because I WANT TO (damn it), walking proudly and defiantly down the street (damn it), shrugging off this monkey who is my mother breathing down my neck telling me that I’m not fit to be with other humans (damn it), and just in a complete rage at how I didn’t deserve it.  DAMN IT!!  Just like there was no reason for her to pull the emotional blackmail bit on me a few weeks ago after I’d OFFERED to help, there was no reason to beat me down.  What was so bad about me?  NOTHING.  I’m not saying I was perfect, but there was no reason to treat me that.  Period.

Wildflower

Whooaa!! Go Wildflower!! You are so right, she had no right to treat you like that. Isn't that a good reality to get into? I think that is a 'slow train coming' experience that is emerging for me on horizon. It's hard when
independant thinking was taboo. Not encouraged is too mild. It was taboo.

It reminds me a bit of my attitude to a lot of modern journalism. So often it's - no thinking required , just other people's crap, refried.

"Umm, yum, yes please. Can I have another bowl of your hot steaming crap please mother? Oh I can, goody, you are so good to me."

I guess I'm thinking it's also a bit like never having eaten snails or frogs legs or lizard. I couldn't come at any of that food, no matter which a la carte world famous chef prepared it. But I'm sure if I'd been born into a different culture, where these types of (repulsive to me) foods formed part of my staple diet in the household in which I grew up, then they would hold a tremendous appeal for me.

I read once somewhere, and noted it down in one of my journal's, "When punishment and abuse (in it's many forms) has formed the basis of our first and primary relationship - and that relationship has been vital to our survival - we seek and crave this in our future relationships."

"Gee thanks mum for this love you fostered in me that I have of eating other people's hot steaming crap. You're an angel sweetie, ta. And why aren't you just so proud of me, I'm just like you?"

Maybe that was me, way back on some far distant planet, but not any more, not this little space-traveller. I'm outta that whole freekin' galaxy , and I'm stayin' out!

And there are no shortcuts to mental and /or emotional health. Not for me anyway. I've learnt I had to be prepared to put in the hard yards. I've found it's been vital to invest the time to understand what the real issues are in my life. No point having some superficial grasp on what the issues are, (like so many modern journo's who annoy the crap out of me) and then demand answers!!! Aren't the instant society, full of bullshit solutions and answers, F*#*kin' hopeless.

I remember I read one book written by a lunatic woman years ago who told me codependancy was my problem and that I loved too much. I was an excellent student, and to my horror, much later I realised so much of it was all shit. The only person who got any benefit from that book was the jerk I was married to. I'd like to meet her, that author one day.  

Then there's the woman you meet anywhere, maybe your second cousin, maybe your hairdresser, with the perfect life and all the answers.

I'll call her Mrs Couldn't Give A Stuff dressed up as Mrs Caring.
She says, "Oh dear CG, you say you and your mother don't get on, tut tut, what a shame. Daughters shouldn't fight with their mother's, it's not nice. Why don't you try sending her a Christmas card. Mother's mean well you know."

CG says, " Yeah sure, and while I'm at it, why don't I go buy myself a bucket of death adders to keep me warm in bed tonight, you useless peice of ...."

Replies Mrs Couldn't Give A Stuff dressed up as Mrs Caring, "Oh, I'm sure you're exaggerating, she can't be that bad."

CG says, "Well, she used to have oral sex with her boyfriends in front of me when I was only 6 and 7, and she knocked me out once, and she killed my dog, and she fed her cat's balls to her boyfriend once, and she cleaned the dunny with peoples toothbrushes when she was angry with them, that's pretty bad isn't it?"

Says Mrs Couldn't Give A Stuff dressed up as Mrs Caring, "Um, well, oh dear, is that the time, I've gotta go CG and it's beeen nice talking with you."

CG, "Yeah, bye, piss off."

When something has affected me deeply, and then I realise I have made a life of making wrong choices because it's stuffed up my thoughts and feelings, it becomes critical for me to get to the bottom of the real issues driving me. This was what happened when I learned about narcissism and NPD. I'm sure I've over-read and over-researched this and a whole range of issues in my life, but I find for me it's exactly what I need to do if I'm want to conquer or master any subject or problem in my life. There's no other way for me.

So if I'm labouring and going over the same ground with 'mother stories', please bear with me, or else piss off, I don't care! I'm sorting out some serious shit here.


But to you Wildflower I say,

You're great Wildflower,
Go buy those fish (pleeease I wanna be the blonde one),
Turn up that music,
Party with those friends,
Plan that trip,
Shake that touche'
Drink that milk   ?

Thanks so much Wildflower for listening,

CG

PS, what's your cat's name, mine's Tom and he's half balinese.

[Wildflower]

It's hard when independant thinking was taboo. Not encouraged is too mild. It was taboo.

This is a thought that has confused me for a long, long time.  Mom was always encouraging me to be independent, to think independently.  Or, that’s how the story went.  That’s what she told me.  But she was fighting desperately for her OWN independence by rebelling everything her mother said/did/required – and it was that ‘independence’ that I was allowed.  Not my own.  Not my own independence to clean the kitchen if I wanted to (who did it hurt??).

Not my own independence to watch the kind of TV shows I wanted.  Now, I’m all for a parent guiding their child these days when it comes to watching TV.  That’s not what I’m saying.  It’s the parent’s job to be responsible and help their child not watch too much TV, and to make sure that they are mature enough to handle what they watch.  And maybe that was my mom’s intention, but if she didn’t like what I was watching, she’d ask me in a tone of voice I understood all too well, “Why do you like watching that?”  And that would be it.  I’d never watch it again.  One of those shows was a silly sitcom about a radio station and I really liked one of the characters.  The show was stupid, and I knew that on some level.  But I’ve seen the show since on cable, and I’m floored by how much that character looks like my good dad.    Duh.  THAT’s why I liked watching that show.  But it was low-brow and dumb and a bit tacky, and mom didn't approve of such things.  And I had lost connection with my good dad to the point where he was just a random collection of strange memories and impulses that didn’t make sense.    So I never watched it again.

But … that’s it.  I mean, so much of what my mom did could have made sense if there had been enough positive reinforcement to balance it out.  And if I hadn’t continuously been set up for failure?  I was never really guided, but boy did I hear about it if I was doing something – anything - wrong.

I believed that, to my core, there was something deeply wrong with me that made me do all these ‘bad’ things.  Because that was her message.  Given that she was abused herself, she probably didn’t understand how her message came across.  How deeply her criticisms affected me.  And because she had never been able to protect herself and was constantly fighting for her own survival, she couldn’t understand how my own needs were in no way a threat.  She could have watched me and learned from me, but instead, she silenced me.

And she pushed me away because she couldn’t deal with the responsibility of really taking care of a child.  This reinforced the monster message, because it said to me that I was so bad, even my own mother couldn’t bear to spend time with me.    

And I see now that I probably never would have been able to challenge this deep down belief if I hadn’t pushed myself out into the world in spite of some almost paralyzing fears of what I might discover about myself.  At first, I did get a lot of negative feedback, because I was so angry and hurt and defensive.  Wounded.  But I learned, over time, to change the way I interacted with people – first by watching how others interacted and trying to understand why I didn’t, and then by refining my interactions with the help of a therapist.  I never would have guessed that, in doing all this, I would have found myself.  Again.  And knowing who I am – or at least, knowing more about who I am - has given me the courage and the strength to finally face this poisonous belief – and squash it.  Going back into those memories on Friday night, I almost got lost.  I almost buckled again (what if I really DID deserve it – poor mom having to put up with me ).  But I had the accumulation of my stories, my islands, my interactions with people in the present, the knowledge of how good it makes me feel to be kind to people whenever I can – I had all these things to tie me to the earth and help me come back out knowing, finally, after all this time, that I DIDN’T DESERVE IT.  I AM NOT A MONSTER.

Wildflower

P.S. -  CG, I’m coming back to your post.  I just had to get this out.  

P.P.S – Oh, and my cat’s name is Astor, because when I got him, he used to sit funny because of his bad hips from the accident.  He looked regal sitting like that.  Then I found out that he’s really just a big dumb happy honest affectionate cat.  Who stomps.  I swear.  And I love him to bits for that.    

[Wildflower]

But … that’s it. I mean, so much of what my mom did could have made sense if there had been enough positive reinforcement to balance it out.

Correction.  The way my mom talked about her actions seemed reasonable, and that's what made it harder for me to see through them.  And I do believe that she meant well, but so much of what she did came out all twisted - and sadly, abusive.

Wildflower

[Wildflower]

Hi Miss Space-Traveller ,

Old topic that I’m finally catching up to: clothing.  I’ve also struggled for some time now with clothing, and shopping for clothes used to make me so deeply uncomfortable.  At first, I think it was mostly to do with the fact that I couldn’t really find clothes that fit since I was so overweight.  Even had to go to special stores.  But as the weight came off, my reluctance to shop stayed.  When I did buy clothes, they were almost always black – to hide the way I looked, and to keep from standing out.  Of course, I kind of stood out for always wearing black, but I still felt safely invisible.  I think those words about being ugly really sank in, and it has taken years of work with my therapist for me to be able to look in the mirror and see that I’m not fat, and I’m not ugly.  And I should be proud to express myself – through clothing.  It’s still really hard, though.  I still feel like I’m not cool enough to pull off some of the clothing I kind of want to wear.  I don’t know if this helps.  I’m really just responding to your comment about not feeling like you’re worth spending that kind of money on.

It was a virgin moment. I was extremely anxious, clumsy and messy. But I was damned effective. My children may have witnessed her insanity and cruelty for abrief moment in their lives, but with me protecting them from her I don't think it has caused any lasting damage. I know they learned something about me then. And I gained some of my power back. There was a shift.

This must have been such a difficult, strange and exhilarating time for you.  Were you married at that time, or did you have to do all the moving and detaching on your own?

This reminds me of a self-defense for women class I went to thinking it would be one of those classes where you learn how to fight off an attacker, but it turned out to be a small lecture instead (still planning on taking a class like that some day, though).  Anyway, the woman giving the lecture asked us to do some exercise like scream out ‘NO’ as loud as we could, and the first couple of times we did it, we were all pretty wimpy.  Then she asked us to imagine that we were protecting our children (or pets or some other dependent) and the difference was eye-opening.  We were all desperate, loud, FIERCE.  She said that most women have trouble defending themselves, but they can hurl large vehicles when asked to defend someone else – especially their children.

Yeah sure, and while I'm at it, why don't I go buy myself a bucket of death adders to keep me warm in bed tonight, you useless peice of ...."

      Tell me you said that at some point because it’s hilarious.  I got similar reactions if the subject of my dad came up after he told me he’d spent all his money (on a third story to his second home among other things) so he couldn’t continue to pay for my college tuition.  I was working as a summer intern at a bank when this typically aggressive banker type guy overheard me talking to one of the other secretaries about visiting my dad that weekend.  I think I said something like “I’d rather burn in H***.”  (These were my difficult years, mind you   ).  Well, he comes over and starts giving me a lecture about the importance of family and how his father and his sister stopped talking for years and years over some tiny little insignificant thing, so I should be careful not to do that and blah blah blah.  I was so angry my eyes started tearing up and I came really close to punching him.  Reeeally close.  Some nerve, giving me that bit about “some tiny little insignificant thing” when he clearly had no idea what was going on – because he’d never even bothered to ask before telling me not to go and do something foolish.  Rrrg.

Hunh.  Hadn’t intended to go on that tirade.      Anyway, the conversation between you and Mrs Couldn't Give A Stuff is talked about quite a bit in the book R recommended that I’m reading right now: When You and Your Mother Can’t Be Friends.  The third chapter, “The Bad Mommy Taboo”, is all about how abusive mothers are protected by so many mechanisms in society – to the point where the needs/protection of the abused child are ignored in order to protect the sanctity of motherhood.

From where I sit, reading your stories, I think your mother belongs in jail or in a mental ward for the criminally insane.    I’m not kidding.  The fact that she hasn’t been arrested for assault (setting someone on fire??) is astounding to me.  Although I guess it’d be too embarrassing for a guy to go into a police station and explain how he got burned like that?  I don’t know.

Anyway, back to the book.  I read a passage that made me think about your last post and some of the anger you’ve shown towards the other men your mother was involved with:
 

Other daughters hold their passive fathers accountable.  Gloria’s mother was a tyrant whose hair-trigger temper and scathing admonitions kept everyone in line, including Gloria’s father. Today Gloria’s anger at her mother has devolved to an apparent indifference, a kind of numbness.  But her anger toward her father is as fresh as when she was a child.  Why?  Because her father would not protect her from her mother – instead, he protected his wife.  Gloria says,

“I just wish he weren’t so damned meek.  And that he had gone to bat for me.  As a child, I think that was the biggest hurt, not her constantly berating me so much as his allowing her to treat me the way she did.  He knew what she was like.  Yet he would say, “You have to show respect for your mother,” whenever I’d complain to him.”

Was John the only one who ever stood up for you?  Where were you when her other boyfriends were around (when she wasn’t having sex with them – I know where you were then, and yes, that has to be a form of sexual abuse )?

When something has affected me deeply, and then I realise I have made a life of making wrong choices because it's stuffed up my thoughts and feelings, it becomes critical for me to get to the bottom of the real issues driving me. This was what happened when I learned about narcissism and NPD. I'm sure I've over-read and over-researched this and a whole range of issues in my life, but I find for me it's exactly what I need to do if I'm want to conquer or master any subject or problem in my life. There's no other way for me.

So if I'm labouring and going over the same ground with 'mother stories', please bear with me, or else piss off, I don't care! I'm sorting out some serious shit here.

Even if you ARE hashing out some of the same issues that everyone else has faced, you may come out of your struggles with completely different results.  Look at R and me.  Some of what we’ve been discovering has been similar probably, but I sense that the answers we found belonged to different questions, don’t you R?  And some of the answers are different, too?  Or at least, different details?  But important details?

Thanks for the poem .  And of course you can be the blonde fish

Wildflower

[Anonymous]

Hi Wildflower, meow Astor,

That was an interesting journey and series of thoughts you just posted (The washing up story   .  I think, "What is her problem!) and it leads me to want to share an enlightenment I was/am sorting through. It may all be re-fried beans to a you, but I'm used to being a decade late in my thinking.  Anyway, I love re-fried beans.

I was re-reading only yesterday through some notes I made some time ago about guilt, stress, a possibly shrunken hippocampus due to prolonged periods of stress and abuse, and then back to GUILT again. Yep, GUILT being the biggee.

At first when I was reading through, I had the thought to post it as a new thread, but then I concluded it's all too full of holes and half conclusions,     , a bit like me     . I'm so glad self-deprecation is one of my strong points!  

My title page says the following,

'WHY? WHY? WHY?'

"WHY Do We Strive With Abusive Parents?"
"WHY Do WE Strive With Abusive Spouses?"
"WHY Do We Strive With Abusive Friends?"

ANSWER. WHY we strive = we are conditioned to feel guilty.

(explanatory note - That's the title, "WHY?"  ANSWER -  being the conclusion of the author. My notes are a mish-mash, but you've got good insight and so I thought you might get something out of it. I know I did, but inside me it's still a work in progress, not a unified cohesive script yet. So here goes. Part 1 are the written notes. Part 2 is my written response to myself at the reaction or revelation I had at the time, and I wrote it and read it out loud to myself and cried at the time. Self-pity or self-awareness, who knows?? I jes' no's it felt rite!).  

Part 1.

'The Psyche Of The Abused' by Ken Levin

The abused child who is abused and/or neglected by
an alcoholic mother, or beaten by a brute of a father,
or sexually abused, takes on guilt and shame.

Somewhere in the damaged psyche develops the
Galut or Dhimmi mentality (Moslem or Arab terminology I think???)

The 'if's' come in.

With the 'if's' comes the need in later life to appease guilt.

We marry people like our parents.
We try to make it work.

We keep reaching out to our parents - relating!
Doing things for them - WHY? - GUILT!

FALSE - EXTRERNALLY IMPOSED GUILT
(note - big significance to me here)

Not for anything we have done,
but for (here's another big one) 'WHAT WE HAVE RECEIVED'

Punishment - we have been punished for
being alive and being a burden -
And WE ARE GUILTY!!!


Part 2.

Now comes the SCREAMING response I wrote down after I came out of the shock reality impact.

Question to self, "Why do I feel guilty about having been a child?"

Well, I'm still alive, and being still alive has meant that I've cost someone time and money. So, GUILTY!

I've created washing and would get sick sometimes and someone has had to look after me. So GUILTY!

I cried when I'm hurt and made a noise and a fuss. So GUILTY!

I made a mess sometimes and someone had to clean it up. So, GUILTY!

I had a vagina, which may have turned men (step-dad) on. So GUILTY!

I grew breasts breasts and became another woman in the house, a threat. So GUILTY!

I was young, when mum was getting older. So GUILTY!

I was loud and laughing and energetic mixed with innocence. So GUILTY!

Everything that I was punished for   HAD A REALITY AND A CONTEXT!!!  SO YES!!   I WAS GUILTY!!

AND I'VE CARRIED THIS GUILT 'WITH' MY ABUSIVE PARENT!!

The end of my notes.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share this Wildflower.

(((Wildflower)))

CG

[Wildflower]

Hi CG,

First off, I feel like this is a cozy thread, a CG thread, so it completely makes sense for you to keep posting here. (((CG)))

I had a vagina, which may have turned men (step-dad) on. So GUILTY!

I grew breasts breasts and became another woman in the house, a threat. So GUILTY!

I was young, when mum was getting older. So GUILTY!

I was loud and laughing and energetic mixed with innocence. So GUILTY!

This is just a first impression because these really hit me hard.  They add a whole new layer to your story.  
Not only were you

1)  the scapegoat (and thankfully confidant) as R so insightfully pointed out,

2)  a reminder of your father, as Portia channelled (I'd say 'insightfully pointed out' but you know how you're not supposed to repeat words, and well, I love the way you make connections Portia),

but now we have

3)  a very real (physical) threat to her as you grew up into the person that the very laws of nature required you to become.  

I wonder what would have happened if you had been a boy?

Wildflower

[Anonymous]

You're a million miles ahead of me here. I'm stills stuck on the part about your mother not wanting you to watch trashy sit-coms on TV. In my best Scottish or Irish accent I say, "Oi cannay be-leeeve it!" And that look    she would give you. I think I know that look, it produces such guilt and anxiety in the 'looked' . Looked, oh well, I coouldn't think of the right word.  Oi!

What was the show, go on, tell me??? You don't have to tell which character looked like your good dad, but tell me the show, pleease???

I've got one question for you. How did you manage to keep your studies up??? How did you manage to keep your mind on the job???

Darn it, I've got all these questoins in my head from your posts and now I gotta go for a little while, something just came up, but I'll be back!!!

CG