Author Topic: healing  (Read 60738 times)

Anonymous

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healing
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2004, 06:28:01 AM »
Quote from: Portia

As R was saying abut introverts elsewhere, I need external validation, I do not trust the values I have placed on memories any more. That’s why talking on this board is tricky in terms of drawing conclusions – it’s my take, my values, my memories. What I’d really like is couples therapy just to get the stories out. This is my story of that event: what’s yours mother/father/eye-witness? Tell the truth. I guess I might be in a law court here, so perhaps not such a good idea (but no-one is on trial: only the truth of events and then the subjective responses to those events).

People used to listen to me talk (teens, early 20s), smile and say “you’re crazy!” I guess meaning ‘what odd thoughts’ but I can say now, it was both flattering to my mind and I also wanted to punch those people for making me wonder if it was true. Crowds, lynch mobs, lunch mobs in the workplace. Sorry, darkness, back to you quick! P

PS. Here’s weird one on facts/experience/immediate memory. Going to bed the other night, OH puts radio on and there’s some silly song being sung on some comedy prog. I hear him sing along a line. I go into the bedroom and after a pause he says “so you know that song too?”. “Eh?” I say. He says “Weren’t you just singing it?” Me: “No, that was you singing!” Both of us: “Yikes!” (I think he had a conversation with me in his mind and took it as real – bit like thinking you’ve woken up, got out of bed, brushed your teeth…and then you wake up.) Odd chap, the brain.

Was it here or elsewhere? “You’re just jealous because the voices aren’t talking to you!”


Hi Portia, glad you enjoyed the henhouse story. Hi Farmer Grossman, how ya goin'? I'm talking to you again. Thanks for the affirmation the other day.  Anonymous here appreciated it.

Portia, that idea about couples therapy with some of the people I've been entwined with is a scary thought. I wonder how I'd cope with hearing their versions in a cold structured environment. That's a hard one to comprehend. I think with some we wouldn't get past the greeting.
It'd be a total Monty Python kit.

Me, "Hi, nice to see you."

Other, "Why'd you say nice to see you. You haven't rung me for 75 years. Don't try and play the nice guy."

or

Me, "Hi, glad to see you."

Other, "No you're not, don't lie."

And these are supposed to be the most important people in my life. :shock:

I think with some, like my mother, I've worn myself out trying to get her viewpoint. She's rammed it down my throat. Her cronies have rammed it down my throat as well. And I really wanted get it too. It would have simplified everything, if I could see things her way. I would have been so happy so to be wrong about her, and a few others. But I had completely opposing values to her, to them, so it was not to be.

That is a funny story about your husband having a conversation with you in his head. I can relate to that. It's better than thinking you've woken up gone to the toilet then gone back to be. Then you wake up.....as the midnight surfer.

Nice talking to you.

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rosencrantz

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healing
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2004, 08:09:52 AM »
Quote
how much memory can be affected and influenced by our values. And how values drive our imagination


Thanks for making the remark as it helped me understand the difference better between a T and an F (and remembering the post you made about understanding the world from an F vs T perspective on another thread).   The statement is true for an F but unlikely to be true for a T - so what you said here demonstrates your 'F'-ness.  As far as I understand it, a T wouldn't say that.  It's just a totally different take on the world.  That's why we (all of us in the  world) often have great difficulty in understanding each other.  

I know that lots of people have gone 'huh?' at where I'm coming from - and seeing so very many people being 'I' on this board most probably has something to do with it.

'Can't you detach?' My response is 'No' with a kind of incredulous question mark (like, 'whoich planet are you from'!)   :D  When two opposites collide, it's often that kind of 'which planet' feeling (or whatever the equivalent of that reaction is for a T.)

I can relate to people or see people relating to each other and i'm  totally 'in the zone' - then I might see the same people relating to each other and not know what connection is going on, what there is to 'understand'. What passed me by?  Probably one of those 'polar opposites' at play.  I tend to skip over the stuff that people write that I don't understand.  Reckon it's none of my business to understand (otherwise I'd be asking questions til kingdom come and still wouldn't 'get it').  

Memory and childhood.  

Whooo! My 'classic' is having a memory come up from within my 'feelings' of being a toddler and someone pushing me over but then suddenly years later 'knowing' that never happened.  I was a toddler learning to walk - nobody pushed me; I sat down on my bottom with a thump.  That's terrible to realise I thought someone pushed me!!!

And being in hospital aged 6 - I had a doll and my mummy (!) sowed a special button on it - a magic button so that when it hurt I just had to rub the magic button and it would all get better.  The child next to me screamed and cried when her mother left so the nurse asked me to give my doll to the other child.  And I never got it back so I never did get my magic button.  But for many years I believed it was my mother who had asked me to share the doll.  Well, authority figures - they're all the same person really!  :wink:

(:idea: Why is it that I'm always 'good' like I'm asked to be and then end up with the short straw!)

But some really strange things can happen, too.  

After seeing that inexperienced therapist, and two years in group therapy getting my identity back in one piece, I was desperate for further therapy with someone, anyone, on the basis that there was some terrible secret lurking beneath the surface waiting to be told.  I didn't know what it was but I feared it had something to do with sexual abuse (I didn't say that of course - too dreadful to say the words).  I was sure they'd think that this was just me trying to get attention or five million other things I could think up and gave up in the finish. (Probably just as well as you will see...)

I didn't believe that any of those 'memories' ('feelings'? thoughts?) about child sex abuse could have been true - they didn't make any sense at all.  I once tried to talk to my mother about it and she went crazy - I think I probably only got about two words out - I wasn't about to accuse anybody of anything but she went AWOL.  So all that got shoved back into the cupboard - don't think, don't feel.

But a few years ago my cousin told me that HER mother (my mother's sister) had revealed just before she died that she had been abused (raped?) when she and my mother were little girls, away visiting somewhere in the country.  I still don't know what the facts of it all were - whether my mother was there, involved, or just carrying the same 'unknown' burden of a terrible secret - but I had the most enormous sense of relief when my cousin told me - like the secret I was carrying (I?) was finally out in the open.  I tell you - massive physical, mental and emotional relief.  'Oh thank God - you mean it really happened!'. (A highly inappropriate response but it just lurched out of me, goodness only knows where from)

So who knows what's real and what isn't.  The 'memory' (or 'knowledge') was 'real' for me but it wasn't 'mine'.  It wasn't 'me' who had the terrible secret - it was my mother - but somehow it had become 'mine'. (BUT who's going to believe me?) (Back in the old, well-worn, boring, tedious groove!!!)

R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Portia

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« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2004, 11:40:05 AM »
I believe you R. Maybe some of it is passed through genetic memory? Through the cells? Maybe it was just passed through body language when you were a wee babe. Maybe when you were the same age as your Mum was when that happened she told you to beware of strange things and in the story you picked up some truth? There’s so much we don’t know about how people communicate.

Quote
but she went AWOL. So all that got shoved back into the cupboard - don't think, don't feel.

Maybe she wasn’t saying don’t think or feel, maybe she was saying ‘don’t talk about that – too much feeling for me’? Abused children feel guilty and the one who saw and witnessed is just as abused as the actual victim etc etc. And maybe guilty that you ‘knew’? Guilty that she’d passed the memory on? Many, many questions! (I can easily ponder this type of stuff without getting upset because I’m after answers. Digging away, ouch that was a nail in the soil but never mind, where’s that sealed box of stuff

rosencrantz

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Still ploughing through my 'stuff'
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2004, 03:06:54 PM »
Look forward to reading the story!!

Sure, I do see with today's mind and brain that I had touched that 'nerve' (yet again). But I was in my late 20s, still struggling with trying to make sense of life at the time, not realising that what I was really struggling with was my relationship with my mother (and my 'therapist'!).   :roll:

'Everyone' still thinks even today that I am some recalcitrant teenager escaping from a suffocating mother and that I should have gotten over it by now and be repairing bridges.  I can't be sure that's not the case. I may yet still discover that it's me who needs to 'grow up' - or that we are simply competing with each other in a grand folie a deux - each trying to outparent the other!! ?  I'll look after you.  No, I'll look after you.  No, I'll...just open the door and leave. (It was me who broke the 'deal' and she really wasn't ready for it.  She felt 'abandoned' and enraged - probably deep down just plain indignant - "after all I did for you"!!!).

What I should have said to my mother a long time ago is "It's not my job to provide you with someone who needs you" (rather than just turn my shoulder to the 'grinding' stone, put on my T Rex suit, to stop her invading me, and block her out).  Of course there's a quivering wreck of a child hiding behind that suit.  She shamed me again and again with her rages and tantrums and spiteful sarcastic words).  

Things are 'fine' if I 'need' her.  She recounts the one time I phoned up in need of a friend after I left home.  Things were pleasant then.  She acted 'normal'.  But I don't trust her not to take advantage of my need - in order to tie me by her side and thus fulfil her need for someone to need her (still with me?!!).  She's happy, in charge, confident. (If someone 'needs' me, so am I - maybe I've been hurt many times that she's refused my help?  Maybe I'm just plain revolted that my 'need' feeds her.  I can't bear her to touch me. I'm used, tainted.)

My H doesn't 'need' me - it's much safer, saner. I 'need' him (his sanity, his logic, his castle wall boundaries) but I think it's not the same.  I 'need' those things to lead a healthy, independent life in 'connection' with somebody else.  My son doesn't 'need' me either.  I'm sad to say.  I feel I've failed as a mother.

Take 2 : (frowns) Yikes!  Is that success as a mother?????????????

"Whatever"  :roll:  :wink:  (The answer is neither)

The fact is - what I've referred to is a folie a deux - that's me plus her - who's to blame and why is irrelevant.  I can say it's both of us.  But she doesn't want out and I do.  If this was someone describing a marriage (like many on this board) I'd say - Brilliant - you got the message - so get out now!!!!!  I can't bear to see people getting sucked back in.  

But I bow very slightly to the concept of filial loyalty.  I shall write back and 'demand' rationality  I shall find a kind way of saying : "When we can get some rationality in our written communication THAT's when I'll have confidence to call you.  Compare what I wrote with what you wrote back."  Maybe she'll never manage it and I'll be free. :twisted:  (Doubt it, Ns are far more conniving than that!!!)

I see I've found more words to make it easier to understand today : 'she felt indignant'.  Except...the indignation has lasted 30 years! Maybe if she could have beaten the hell out of me, she could have gotten it out of her system (I've given her enough opportunities!?) - she's been doing it with twisted words instead - she's all twisted up wanting to be the 'good guy' in the pack (meanwhile I don't see why I should be the 'bad guy'!)

I wonder what I can do to make us 'both' the good guys when I'm so angry, too - partly because I've had to be the grownup for so long and 'take it' and 'take it' and 'take it'???!!!!!  An impossible question.
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

Anonymous

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« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2004, 10:19:27 PM »
Quote from: rosencrantz
Quote


It's just a totally different take on the world.  That's why we (all of us in the  world) often have great difficulty in understanding each other.  

I know that lots of people have gone 'huh?' at where I'm coming from - and seeing so very many people being 'I' on this board most probably has something to do with it.

'Can't you detach?' My response is 'No' with a kind of incredulous question mark (like, 'which planet are you from'!)   :D  When two opposites collide, it's often that kind of 'which planet' feeling (or whatever the equivalent of that reaction is for a T.)


So who knows what's real and what isn't.  The 'memory' (or 'knowledge') was 'real' for me but it wasn't 'mine'.  It wasn't 'me' who had the terrible secret - it was my mother - but somehow it had become 'mine'. (BUT who's going to believe me?) (Back in the old, well-worn, boring, tedious groove!!!)

R


Hi Rosencrantz, I think the equivalent to the 'which planet' thing for a T is, "This doesn't make any sense to me at all," or "Why don't you use your brains for a change!"

And the "Can't you detatch" thing. They may as well say, "Could you stop being, please?" Hell, we have been detatched from what's been going on (in some awful ways) all our bloody lives. And it's caused us to be cast adrift, isolated, Robinson Crusoe-ish for most of our frickin' lives. I feel like saying to them, these well-meaning, ignorant, thanks for f*@#*in' nothin' types, "You go detatch. OKAY!!!! And don't you DARE try to tell me what to do, EVER AGAIN, OR I'LL RIP YOUR DAMN HEAD OFF YOUR SHOULDERS AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ARSE!"

But I don't, you know what I do. I implode!

And then I meekly wander off, sometimes embarrassed, and try to detatch, like they suggested. And then guess what happens? I get even more confused by it, (what I got stuck on) the next time.

AND you know why? Because some dickhead gave me crappy advice that I took. And so I never got to go through, work out or analyse what the hell it was that bothered me so much or why!

So the twisted cycle goes on. Till I learn to say nicely, "No I won't, but thanks for your advice anyway. I'm learning to know what's good me. And I know detatching right now would not be good for me, because I need to learn something here, and I can feel I'm going to learn something really valuable in this exploration and experience. Now you can either help me here, or get out of my way. And please don't tell me what to do?"

Aaah, that felt good!

And about that last bit, memory and what's real, I had a thought.
Maybe F's later in life, remember the events through how it made them feel. Their acute detail is in everything they felt.  And actual order and events memories are secondary.

Maybe the T's remember the events in perfect detail and perfect order, and focus on actuals. And how and what feelings were affected are secondary.

Some parts of the last bit, about it being your mother's memory, I don't quite get. That's okay, I'm not expecting you to explain. But it connects with me somehow???


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Wildflower

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healing
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2004, 01:20:11 AM »
I’ve really had to put some thought into all of your posts, guys (is it okay to call you guys?  :)  ).  I guess I’ve kind of taken for granted how I use imagination as a tool (or that I even use it as a tool!  :oops: :D ) and it took a while for me to start to break it down, but I'm glad I did.  There's a lot of interesting stuff here with memories and imagination.  Thanks for pointing that out Guest! :D  

Quote
People used to listen to me talk (teens, early 20s), smile and say “you’re crazy!” I guess meaning ‘what odd thoughts’ but I can say now, it was both flattering to my mind and I also wanted to punch those people for making me wonder if it was true.


I want to start by saying that people use to tell me my ideas were crazy in the same way, Portia.  I don’t think I would have had the courage to talk about the imagery I mentioned above if my therapist hadn’t validated my use of it.  And I trust her because she’s straight with me and places a heavy emphasis on helping me get to the reality of situations I face – even if it means I’ve got something wrong.
 
So here's something we're all familiar with:  Say there’s someone in our lives who, whenever we’re around them, we feel bad about ourselves (hard to get that perspective when you’re born into it, but I’m just trying to talk this through).  We don’t know up from down, and we can’t tell who’s fault it is – or whether it’s even right to ask that question.  Then we learn about Narcissism.  It’s a framework, or a lens, that helps us to identify abusive behaviors and the characteristic traits of N’s.  We take this lens and use it to look at the people in our lives – especially those who make us feel bad.  Does the lens fit?  Does the picture come into focus?  Even if it’s not perfect, if it’s better and eases some of our confusion, it may be worthwhile to stay with this lens for a while. See if there are more patterns we notice.  Test it out.

I guess this is what I’ve been doing with my imagery, my stories.  I have an uncanny memory for conversations, but it’s true that I don’t have 100% confidence in my other memories.  Images and stories give me a way to tie my memories together when all I have is just a loose collection of memories with lots of gaps and question marks.  When I first began “reconstructing” my life, I used the image of a bunch of islands of memory.  They were tiny and scattered, like Hawaii.  The model worked for me and gave me motivation to “connect the dots” so to speak. To set a goal to be able to "walk" from one island to the next someday.  I never actually believed that these islands were real, though.   :D

So by using bits of facts gathered from talking to people who were around, comparing whatever perspectives are available to me - and making those islands bigger, my story has gone from:

I loved pre-school and kindergarten and I was happy.  I did really well in first grade and my teacher really liked me (though I got some grief for being a teacher’s pet).  But then all of a sudden I was being pulled out of class in third grade for being disruptive and I started failing in school and people stopped liking me.  In fact, since third grade things have been pretty horrible.  What happened?

To (and in answer to your question, Guest, about whether the event was internal or external):

When I was between the ages of 2 and 8, my mom was dating a man I adored and who I have no doubt loved me.  He took care of me as if I were his daughter.  He carried me to bed, picked me up after school every day, tickled me until I got the hiccups and couldn’t breathe…in short, he did everything that responsible, caring, nurturing parents do for their children.  And then he left.  Since my mom and her boyfriend weren’t married, no one thought to recognize the impact of their break-up on me.  Including my mother.  And the handful of times I saw him after their split, I was only able to see him for a few minutes before my mom sent me to bed.  I wasn’t a child of divorce.  He was just a boyfriend.  It was terribly painful to lose him.  But just recently, by looking at pictures of myself at that age, I understand that I would have been okay if I’d been given a chance and the support I needed to be able to heal.  If someone had been there to play with me and hug me until the pain went away, I wouldn’t have suffered so long.  Instead, my life became a struggle to survive in a household of emotional neglect and abuse and borderline physical neglect.  Oh, and I wasn’t allowed to do most of the activities my friends were doing whether it was because they were too expensive, my mother didn’t feel like driving, or my mother deemed these activities to be below us.  I went insane because I was a (shy?) extrovert stuck in a cave with little but imagination banging around in my head.

I don’t remember all of this in the sense that others have had to give me their memories for me to be able to connect the dots, by my memories, as hazy and foggy as they were, gave me a place to start.  They were my voice. :)

And Guest, I just saw that you posted, and I completely agree that even when we can’t create timelines, we can still learn so much from what our memories have to tell us about how an experience made us feel.  (I'm not sure I understand the T alternative, but maybe that's because I'm an F :D.)

Which is why I might dig a little deeper into this memory, R, unless you’re really comfortable that this memory is resolved.  

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my 'feelings' of being a toddler and someone pushing me over but then suddenly years later 'knowing' that never happened. I was a toddler learning to walk - nobody pushed me; I sat down on my bottom with a thump. That's terrible to realise I thought someone pushed me!!!


How did you find out that you were wrong?  And maybe you felt pushed because your mother is always pushing your emotions around.  I don’t know, of course.  It's just a thought. :)

So back to the idea of being a parent for myself, or even imagining my shell to be a person.  I don’t really believe these things, but they do really help me sort out my feelings – and even allow me to take steps that would be too overwhelming otherwise.  They help me get beyond emotional paralysis.

Quote
And the "Can't you detatch" thing. They may as well say, "Could you stop being, please?" Hell, we have been detatched from what's been going on (in some awful ways) all our bloody lives. And it's caused us to be cast adrift, isolated, Robinson Crusoe-ish for most of our frickin' lives. I feel like saying to them, these well-meaning, ignorant, thanks for f*@#*in' nothin' types, "You go detatch. OKAY!!!! And don't you DARE try to tell me what to do, EVER AGAIN, OR I'LL RIP YOUR DAMN HEAD OFF YOUR SHOULDERS AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ARSE!"


Thanks for the vent! :D :D I’m so with you guys on that one!  I’ve learned that sometimes I need to cut myself off and go for a run or something because I’m just thinking in circles and getting nowhere.  But when I’m on hot on the trail of a new idea, there’s nothing that makes me feel more hostile or even worse about myself than any of the following:

Let it go.
Relax!
I just wish you could be happy!
You’re overreacting.
You’ve gotten all worked up over nothing.

Oooo, but I could go on……  :evil:

Anyway, I feel like there’s probably a lot I’m missing here, but this feels right  :wink: :D and I wanted to share it with you guys. :D

Wildflower

P.S.- I’ve been zeroed in on this question of imagination as a tool so I hope you won’t mind if I haven’t commented on some of the other important observations you guys have been making. :D
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

Anonymous

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« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2004, 08:20:41 AM »
Quote from: Wildflower

When I was between the ages of 2 and 8, my mom was dating a man I adored and who I have no doubt loved me.  He took care of me as if I were his daughter.  He carried me to bed, picked me up after school every day, tickled me until I got the hiccups and couldn’t breathe…in short, he did everything that responsible, caring, nurturing parents do for their children.  And then he left.  Since my mom and her boyfriend weren’t married, no one thought to recognize the impact of their break-up on me.  Including my mother.  And the handful of times I saw him after their split, I was only able to see him for a few minutes before my mom sent me to bed.  I wasn’t a child of divorce.  He was just a boyfriend.  It was terribly painful to lose him.  But just recently, by looking at pictures of myself at that age, I understand that I would have been okay if I’d been given a chance and the support I needed to be able to heal.  If someone had been there to play with me and hug me until the pain went away, I wouldn’t have suffered so long.  Instead, my life became a struggle to survive in a household of emotional neglect and abuse and borderline physical neglect.  


  But when I’m on hot on the trail of a new idea, there’s nothing that makes me feel more hostile or even worse about myself than any of the following:

Let it go.
Relax!
I just wish you could be happy!
You’re overreacting.
You’ve gotten all worked up over nothing.

Oooo, but I could go on……  :evil:

Anyway, I feel like there’s probably a lot I’m missing here, but this feels right  :wink: :D and I wanted to share it with you guys. :D

Wildflower

P.S.- I’ve been zeroed in on this question of imagination as a tool so I hope you won’t mind if I haven’t commented on some of the other important observations you guys have been making. :D


Hey, this zeroing in was good stuff, and thanks for clarifying the question about when your world changed. I know what you mean. I had a similar experience. One of my mother's live-in's de-facto's sort of affected me like that. I guess she was with him from when I was 5 or 6 years old to 8 years old.

He was an interstate truck driver named John and he was wonderful. I remember one time she belted into me, or started to, and he intervened and took me for a shoulder ride to the corner shop, bought me an ice-cream, and gave me shoulder ride home. I felt so comforted. And other times too, he'd take me for walks to the corner store and buy me a treat. Or would bring me home little trinkets from his trips. It was so exciting when he'd bring his bag in and say something like, "Now what's in here." When friends came over to booze and play cards. I remember him arguing with my mother to let me stay up, so I was allowed to stay up late, he had me on his lap and I helped him play cards, and then he gave me the credit when he won.  :)
He was completely above board and appropriate in his dealings with me too, no funny business.

He was so WONDERFUL.  :)  She asked me to call him dad, so I did and I really really fell in love with him.  :) I have photo's of him and me. Him hugging me. And when he was home he used to read to me. Amazing, he had such warm personality. And he used to not mind if I slept in bed with them. He never yelled or fought with my mother, and often stood up for me to my mother. She had such a hair trigger. Then he just wasn't there one day. Poof, vanished. And I never saw 'dad', John, again.  :shock:

She told me he'd been signed up and been sent Vietnam. :cry:  A few weeks later she told me he had been killed, driving a truck which was blown up, it had run over a landmine. I was devastated. :cry:  I mean, I was 8 and now I'd lost my second father. And within no time she had a new bloke moved. And I wasn't supposed to mention 'dad' at all.

This seemed an impossible ask, but I complied. I wasn't allowed to make any reference at all to one of the nicest people I'd ever known, and I wasn't allowed to ask any questions, or grieve. She just told me he was dead and that was it. End of story. So I never did. Till I was about 35 years old.

Now I pause here, pause.......,from when I was about 8 till 35 I'd thought about him a lot at different times, but in all that time I'd never bought him up, not to her or anyone else. Then, one day, I don't know why, but I confessed to her how much I missed him.

She made some curious comment about how 'they' never leave their wives, "they' just like their little bit on the side." I said, "But isn't he dead?You told me he died." And she laughed and said, "Yeah, well I had to tell you something. He went back to his wife and kids. And anyway, I had a new relationship with Jim, and I told John I didn't want to see him anymore. He wasn't going to ever leave his wife anyway, and I was just his interstate bit on the side."

She told me where he lived, and stories about how she had written to his wife, and how once when he was away, she'd gone interstate and went to his KIDS school, and introduced herself to his KIDS! And told them who she was. Oh my goodness. She'd completely freaked them all out. She told the kids the 'truth' about how he hated their mother, and how their mother didn't 'satisfy' their father, and how he was in love with her. Oh my goodness!

I can't imagine how awful it was for all of them. My mother invents ways to hurt people. He didn't know what he was letting himself for when he hooked up with my mother, but I'm glad he got away from her. And apparently his wife took him back, and he promised his wife he'd have nothing more to do with my mother or me. And my mother hated him by then anyway, and threatened to get one of her detective boyfriends onto him if "He showed his face anywhere near us." Oh my goodness, what a mess. So, my attachment was only a couple of years, but funny how it has a similarity to yours Wildflower, isn't it.

Wow, I'm a bit worked up after writing that. I had some other thoughts to add on the venting thing, but they've disappeared at the moment. I think I need a walk. I've given up the fags for nearly 3 weeks now, and after writing this, I really want one. Pathetic isn't it? No, I won't go and buy a pack, the urge will pass. Going for a stroll. I'll be back.

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Portia

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« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2004, 09:30:17 AM »
Dear Guest, I feel worked up having read about your ‘Dad’ John and all the love he gave you and whoosh! You don’t matter, he just disappears and your mom takes no account of you. Did you ever see him again? You poor little girl, having had such a kind man in your life. If only you could have gone and joined his family!! Why do people have no bloody compassion?

Don’t go back to the fags please – 3 weeks is the hardest time isn’t it? I don’t know, I’m still in ‘beat myself up by smoking’ world. Good on you Guest, not doing this slow suicide job on your body! Let me know how you get on….you could well be my inspiration….P

Anonymous

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« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2004, 09:48:29 AM »
Yes, the venting thing.

I wonder about the 'real' motives of people who tell me, "Relax, don't get your knickers, etc, just let it go." The peace makers, who try to convince me that I analyse too much, and that it's bad for me, or dangerous.

I just don't get it. I bought a game years ago by Edward De Bono, with all the different coloured hats. And with a problem you had to put on a different coloured hat which represented a different thinking style. It was good stuff, even though it was directed mainly at corporate problem solving.

But the thing is that in corporate problem solving, when facing a corporate crisis or difficulties you don't hear people saying, "Your're over-reacting, let it go. Don't make such a big issue out of it."

No, quite the opposite. You're actually expected to investigate every damn step that led the troubled corporation to it's catastrophic point, so that you can hopefully correct the problems, and prevent repetitions in the future. A big part of this is talking to department managers and staff, and indepth questioning them.

What if a participant or observer said, "Oh, give it a rest" then. Huh? That would be recognised immediately as both ridiculous and suspicious.

I wonder if the anally retentive who tout  these guilt trips aren't actually trying to justify their own weak way of dealing with life. Aaahh, another vent. That felt good.

That'll do for now, have a good Easter,

Guest

Anonymous

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healing
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2004, 10:21:47 AM »
Hi Portia, no I never saw him, and he's probably nearly 80 now, if he's still alive. Sigh, I don't know, but after I found out what she did to that family I was just so ashamed. It's hard to explain, but it's sort of connected/associated shame I've often found I have about things she's done. I'm so ashamed of her, and I'm her daughter, so I'm ashamed of me too. Blaaah, I haven't quite worked that out yet either.

And as for the fags, I just figured there'd never be a right time, or an easy time. The final straw was I read a story about a guy (smoker) with inoperable lung cancer. Yuuuk!!!! He was 42, only been smoking for 7 years, married, father of 3 young children, only diagnosed 8 months ago, died last month. His last 8 months were the worst thing I've ever read.

And the slow suicide thing. I know what you mean. It is, isn't it? But there are better and cheaper ways to go! :D  :D  :D  Joke. No, I wish they'd make fags illegal. I wouldn't have bought them then. I'm not the type to buy things on the black market. I'm too paranoid.

Anyway, thanks for the post Portia.

PS, Aaah, mother dear mother, I really didn't want to be thinking about you today. I wonder what little drama you're creating or whose life you're wrecking today! I'm so glad I'm out of it.

Wildflower

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« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2004, 11:47:42 AM »
Wow, Guest.  We really do have a lot in common.  I think I understand your feelings of shame about John, too, but we can save that topic for a rainy day – or at least, a day when you want to hash out more mother stuff. :wink:  :)

I completely understand about the smoking, too.  I quit in October, 2000, but I couldn’t do it cold-turkey.  I did the whole nicotine patch step-down system – and even that wasn’t enough so I had to use the gum for a month or so after that. :roll:  :)   Took me a little over two months to kick it, but once you make up your mind….  Stick with it!!  It’s worth it! :D

Have a Happy Easter! :D

Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

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Re: Still ploughing through my 'stuff'
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2004, 07:20:32 PM »
Quote from: rosencrantz
What I should have said to my mother a long time ago is "It's not my job to provide you with someone who needs you" (rather than just turn my shoulder to the 'grinding' stone, put on my T Rex suit, to stop her invading me, and block her out).  Of course there's a quivering wreck of a child hiding behind that suit.  She shamed me again and again with her rages and tantrums and spiteful sarcastic words).  


My H doesn't 'need' me - it's much safer, saner. I 'need' him (his sanity, his logic, his castle wall boundaries) but I think it's not the same.  I 'need' those things to lead a healthy, independent life in 'connection' with somebody else.  My son doesn't 'need' me either.  I'm sad to say.  I feel I've failed as a mother.

Take 2 : (frowns) Yikes!  Is that success as a mother?????????????

"Whatever"  :roll:  :wink:  (The answer is neither)

I shall write back and 'demand' rationality  I shall find a kind way of saying : "When we can get some rationality in our written communication THAT's when I'll have confidence to call you.  Compare what I wrote with what you wrote back."  Maybe she'll I wonder what I can do to make us 'both' the good guys when I'm so angry, too - partly because I've had to be the grownup for so long and 'take it' and 'take it' and 'take it'???!!!!!  An impossible question.
R


I've highlighted these parts up here because they've stuck in my head, and I wanted to comment, (even though after reading your Bubbles thread I can see you've integrated much of what you said here, so have moved on) on this Rosencrantz. I get an image of a parent, child, parent triangle. You know, like the persecutor victim triangle. And we move around the triangle, maybe we get stuck in one point, or like it in one point.

Like your mother Rosencrantz. Sounds like she's been stuck in the child point, or likes it there. And at some time, way, way, way back, you moved to the parent point and she liked it, (heck, maybe even you liked it for a moment,) so she's kept pushing you back there, every time you try to get out, and go back to the child point. Anyway, that's where this took me, and it's been gnawing away at me, so I thought I'd express it. Hope that's okay.

I do admire how I see you are working so hard on sorting through all this 'stuff'. You seem so determined to keep your son out of being drawn into this Child/Parent/ triangle. Just determined to let him be 'Child'. And that is right, and worth every bit of effort it takes.

And I love your analogy of the T-Rex suit. When you posted that here and somewhere else where I talked about my suit I wear. That picture I have of you in your T-Rex suit, crashing about is so priceless :D  :D . Hilarious.


Thanks
Guest


And Hi to you Wildflower, I wanted to say thankyou for all your encouragement and support. After I posted yesterday, re John, I forgot why I posted. I got so caught up in those memories, trying to sort out reality from imagination again. Then I realised all I really had to look at is how it all makes me feel, NOW. That seems to be the only valid reality I need concern myself with at the moment.

I wanted to say thanks for sharing that detail of your life, and how much I could relate to your loss of that man in your life. I haven't spoken about John, ever, to anyone but my mother, and that was only that one time. She'd go too nuts if if I 'harped'. I've never known anyone with the same experience. Probably lots of us out there. Who knows? But I know how hard it must have been for you. The unrecognised position meant unrecognised loss and grief and is a very difficult pain thing to explain, I find anyway.

Once again Wildflower, thankyou for sharing that story. I didn't realise how much I'm still affected by my experience till I went for a walk after I posted it. I was burning with anger at the old witch once again. Not too far moved along in the healing process here but never mind,  let's call it " A Work In Progress." And surprisingly enough, I'm enjoying the journey.

Thanks and have a Happy Easter

Guest

Wildflower

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« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2004, 12:39:32 PM »
Hi Guest,

I’m really glad that by sharing experiences I was able to be helpful in some way.  It’s comforting to know that such negative stuff can be turned into something positive.

About John, I just want to say that I also felt awkward and ashamed when I first started seeing my “good dad” again.  I was my mother’s daughter, and I probably learned a lot of things from her that would hurt him, or remind him of her.  At first, that may have been a little true because I was only beginning to sort stuff out in my own life, but he has been like a beacon to me.  He is Home, and he's where I’ve been heading in so many ways for so many years.  I don’t know if that applies in your case given that you were with John for a smaller amount of time, but I bet this does:  I learned that my good dad was able to separate his feelings for me from his feelings for my mother.  And I can tell from reading about how he stood up for you that John probably realized/realizes that you were in a tough position and he probably cares and wonders about you – even though your mother did such a terrible thing by confronting his family.  Maybe you could write a letter to him and tell him what you’ve told us here about how you missed him and what a positive part of your life he was.  And tell him how your mom told you he’d died in Vietnam, and how truly sorry you are for what she did in confronting his family.  I don’t really know.  So much time has passed that you may not want to approach him, but I bet he doesn’t hold anything against you – maybe the opposite.  Anyway, it’s just a thought I had.

Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

Anonymous

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healing
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2004, 06:12:46 PM »
Thanks for the comments and thoughts Wildflower, and  I hope you had a good Easter. I took off with some books, got lots of reading in, and stayed away from chocolate and fags. I think it's fantastic the way the way you were able to reconnect with your "good dad." I wonder if that happens much, or if your experience is fairly unique.
 
Your comment about writing John a letter. I've thought about that a trillion times. I could do that, but I have a huge reluctance. It's like a 'disrespect' thing for me. In my personal life I have this issue with keeping agreements, being at appointments on time etc. I'm never ever ever late. EVER. And if I make a promise, I always, always, ALWAYS keep it. Even if it kills me. Really. For some reason, promises to me are holy. Mine and other people's.

I'm very harsh on myself in this regard, and I guess because I've known about his promise to his family, :idea: (Mother knows what a stickler I am for keeping my promises, and insisting othr's keep theirs) maybe she made this up too? Hmmm, never thought of that before) I have to respect that. If John promised his wife that he'd have nothing to do with us again, then that makes me feel very awkward. That woman never hunted me down, and terrorised me, or emabrrassed me in front of my friends, like my mother did to her children.

But, I will say this. I think I can find some way to acknowledge John now, as a part of my life. Like I said, I've got photos of us together and I think I might go buy myself a little frame, and pick out a nice one of us together and put it up out where I can see it. It always  gives me such a nice warm feeling to look at the photo and remember him, so why not? And I don't have to worry about the Witch of Endor over-reacting to it. She's gone years ago. And I fear finding out he's dead. In my heart he's young and handsome and kind and out there somewhere making the world a better place.

Then I think of the old crow, and that makes me think of all the memories I had to bury to keep her stable, and as a result my world stable. Things she didn't want to be reminded of, and things I didn't dare remind her of or she's go nutso. Talk about suck the life from my bones.

That woman would wear 3 or 4 different outfits in one day. If she bought a matching set, (hat glove shoes and handbag), she'd buy the same set in 4 or 5 different colours. And change as many times in one day.

And I had to compliment. Uggh, (groan) all the time complimenting. Giving the 'right' answer to her, "How does this look? Does it make my bum look too big? But then men like something to grab onto, don't they? Can you zip me? Do you think I've got too much eyeshadow on? Look at my stomach, does it look bloated? Wait till you start getting your period, you'll know what I mean. If you don't keep up your appearances, there's always a prettier one out there who will." My emotional fatigues sets it about now remebering it.

I hated this talk so much. Even now I am the worst to go girlie shopping with, and I'm totally hopeless to have girl talk with about fashion. My eyes glaze over and I go into a trance, and start chanting in a robotic monotone "You look lovely, yes I think the blue dress and blue eyeshadow highlights your blue hair beautifully. It's a very appealing combination. Now I've done my duty, can I go and be sick now please?"

No, don't ask me at all, I'm no bloody help. Don't take me shopping if you need to buy new clothes, or ask me how you look. I'll say "Great! Fantasic! Ten Years Younger," and you'll come home with just 2 things. Bags of the greatest pile of hideous outfits, and the thought that I did it on purpose.

I just read what I've written and I'm saying to myself "How did I get here???" :shock:

I started talking about John, and how you suggested that maybe I could drop him a line, then I thought about mother, then I thought about her effect on me, and then I went to how her effect on me has retarded my ability to relate normally in so many ways. The I thought about how I don't bother so much with changing my retardation behaviours because I think it would take too long. I just try to be aware of them and not let them cause damage. For example, I tell my friends I'm no good to go shopping, and warn them, "Don't ask me for advice. It's lousy." This is about as good as it's gonna get I think.

I think if I devoted the time it would take to repair the damage she's done I'd have no time or energy left to be mother or friend or wife.

In my mind I liken it to the world's biggest messiest bunch of different coloured string. My mother has put me over here in a corner with this huge messy bunch of string, and it's as big as a house. My job is I have to unravel it and sort all the colours into their groups, and join the different colours together, and it's gonna take forever. Am I going to spend the next 20 years doing, if it's going to be perfect? And in the end all I'm gonna have is a big ball of string to lug around, THAT'S NOT MINE! It's just her legacy to me. Yikes!!!! :shock:

How much of my kids lives or making friends or spending time with friends would I miss out on? How tired would I be all the time? Too tired to enjoy MY LIFE. I'd be be over there somewhere, tucked away in some corner of life, neglecting my own things, and spending my life STILL FOCUSSING ON HER CRAP & SORTING OUT HER CRAP!!!!!  :x and that would just end making me mad and resentful. At her for manipulating me and me for being a sucker.

So I'm adjusting to this, "I'm not going to be able to put all the peices of my life back where I'd like them to be, but I can at least remember them, and know where they'd go." :D

Does that make sense? Anyway Wildflower, sorry for rambling on and on.
I had planned to only make it a short one.

Guest.

Wildflower

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« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2004, 09:08:04 PM »
Hi Guest,

Quote
I took off with some books, got lots of reading in, and stayed away from chocolate and fags.


That sounds like such a nice, pleasant weekend!   :D  Wish I'd done that.  Instead, I went digging around for more land mines.  An ACON Easter egg hunt, I guess you could say.  :roll:  Found a couple live ones, too.  I pondered detonating them for a few hours before I finally came to my senses and decided to wait for the bomb squad – AKA my therapist – to arrive.  I think I just might be getting smarter. :roll:  :wink:

Wow do I relate to what you said about giving compliments!  Giving my mom a compliment is like going out in a yard full of dogs wearing a steak suit.  To this day I have to prod myself to give someone a compliment, because I want to be nice – but I do not want to open the doors to the bottomless pit of need for affirmation (BPNA). :roll:

Quote
I think I can find some way to acknowledge John now, as a part of my life.


Maybe that’s all you need.  There’s something so great about being able to gather rays of sunshine from the past. :D

My relationship with my good dad is really limited in that I talk to him once every few months, and it’s half so, so familiar in ways I can hardly describe.  But the other half is filled with longing for what could have been and a realization that our lives have simply moved on, so I can see why you might want to keep remembering John how he was - even if your mom hadn't forced him to make that promise (wish I could punch her for you :evil: ).  In some ways, there’s no going home.  But I think there are ways of bringing home to us – like knowing RG’s dog is inside him now. :D

But reconnecting with my good dad is kind of a weird story and really relates to the whole memory discussion we’ve had here.  It's a bit long, but it's really positive, and I just wanted to share it with you guys – especially after all the negative stuff that’s been clogging up my brain lately.   :D

When I was in junior high, a couple of friends and I decided to make logos for ourselves.  Silly junior high thing kind of thing to do.  Among the cute puppies and pretty flowers and mangled attempts at horses, I came up with two very strange looking dogs.  One was sitting up and one was kind of lying down, but both had very angular heads.  My mom said that the sitting-up one looked like a Steinberg drawing, and I always thought the lying-down one looked like a normal lying-down animal with a Star Trek symbol for a head (you know those things on their suits they use to call the ship?).  Weird.

That’s part one.  Part two is that my mom had a massive collection of classical music – all records, of course.  I think there might have been five or six non-classical albums in the entire collection.  Anyway, every now and then I’d get this itch to find an album that I was never sure existed.  All I knew was that there was a record that opened up and had comics inside.  That’s it.  Was it The Monkees?  Was it that Rolling Stones album?  Donavan?  Let’s just say there are a few albums I now love because I used to listen to them every time wondering, is this it?  Am I just nuts?

And then (part 3) in high school, some of my friends used to listen to one of the stations that played older rock music, and I started having these weirdo deja-vu experiences where I was convinced I knew the song, but I couldn’t imagine where I’d heard it since my mom had nothing but classical music!!  I seriously thought I was losing my mind (well, I guess I was at that time :wink: ).

I saw my good dad once during high school, but before I went to see him, my mom got all weird and said “you know, he’s not the man you remember, he’s changed.  Just be careful.”  What was that supposed to mean?  That really freaked me out and I was really nervous around him for the couple of ours we had lunch.

Well, my first summer after college, I went on a road trip around the southwestern US, and my first stop was in the same city where my good dad lived.  I stayed a couple of days with his family (he had since remarried and had two kids), and it was SOOOOO WONDERFULLY DISORIENTING. :D  :D  

He took me water skiing for the first time, and I was terrible at it :oops:  :D , and just when I was starting to beat myself up and get really frustrated, he leaned over the side of the boat and said something to me (sure wish I remembered what it was, though I’m sure it wasn’t “Relax.  You’re just overreacting.” :wink: ), and my whole body relaxed.  Right then, in the water, skiis pointing in every direction, I blurted out, “Was I a bad kid?”  He was taken aback by this, of course, but he said, “No way.  You were a really good kid.  You were kinda sensitive, but a good kid.”  I choked down a couple of tears, went for one more failed attempt at standup UP on the skiis :roll: , and got back in the boat.

When it was time to head back in, he tried to start the motor and nothing.  Dead.  He started opening up the motor and tinkering around (he’s a bit of a mechanic), and he cursed at it a bit.  And then I really don’t know what happened to snap me out of it, but I kind of “woke up” sitting on the very front tip of the boat – the farthest place I could find from where he was.  I knew right then that if it had been my biological father swearing at the engine, I’d be next in line for the swearing or whatever other scary stuff came next.  I thought, “Wow, how conditioned have I become??  How abusive IS my dad?”  I came back down and he was already laughing at himself about how his wife was going to kill him for forgetting to charge the backup battery.  She’d be pissed about having to drive out to the lake to get him a new one.  She did though.  And we got back to shore.  Laughing. :D   And in the truck on the way home, he put on some music – and it was all the music I’d been hearing on the radio with my friends in high school.  All of a sudden I knew where I’d heard it before, and I blurted out again, “Did you use to play this music in your band?”  He replied, “Oh yeah, you don’t remember this?!?  You used to know all the words and sing along with us during rehearsals.  It was really cute.” :shock:  :D  :shock:  :D

So now I’m reeling.  Everything’s starting to make sense again and I feel like I’m coming out of a long coma.  When we get back to the house, I figure, hey, why not, and I ask him about this mysterious record I’d been looking for over the years.  He laughed (by this time he was really getting a kick out of all the weird questions I was asking him) and said yes, he had that album.  He pulled it out, and there it was. :shock:   I started tearing up.  He sat me down on the couch and opened it up (there were the comics!! I wasn’t crazy :shock: ), and he pointed to one frame and said, “We used to listen to this every day after you got home from school.  You always made me play this song over again.”  I could hardly contain myself.  And when he turned the page, there was the Star Trek dog I’d drawn in junior high – right there in the middle of the page!!! :shock:  :shock:  :D  :D

That night, after he and his wife had gone to bed, I sat out on their back porch and knew that of all the discoveries I’d made in my life up to that point, this one was the biggest one.  And I’ll never forget how the wind was blowing wildly that night, and that’s exactly how I felt inside – all stirred up and blowing in all directions.

So now, whenever I get a weird fuzzy image or yearning or thought that makes me wonder if I’m crazy, I think about how those strange moments pulled me closer to the truth – and I start digging.

Anyway, I know this was long, but thanks for letting me share this.  :D

Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude