Guilt Trips

[tayana]

I have been carefully planning my break away from my Nmom and my enabler father.  I've been looking for new places to live, evaluating schools for my son, talking to my son and explaining our situation as best I can.  I've been working on a budget.  I've talked to a lawyer, and I'm planning to talk to a realtor.  I even talked to my dad today and told him a little of what I'm feeling, and he was sympathetic.

So tonight, after I was asked if I'd signed my son up for a camp that he didn't seem too enthusiastic about, my mother lays an enormous guilt trip on me.  She knows I"m thinking about moving.  So she listed all of the things I needed to think about and consider.  That my son is burned out on school, babysitters, trying to rent someplace that allows animals, etc.  These are all things I've considered, all things I've carefully weighed, and I still come up with, we need to be away from the this woman.  So then she tells me, that my son is afraid he's going to lose her and that if I leave, it'll just be my dad because she will grieve herself to death on my son is gone.

I can't quite figure out where she thinks I'm planning to move.  I'm looking for place close to my work, which is only twenty-five minutes away, and I wasn't planning to cut her out of my life just set some boundaries.  I've been seeing a counselor, and my counselor thinks my plan is good. He likes my determination.  He thinks I'm doing the right thing, in fact I had my session earlier today, and I was feeling really good about myself.  And then my mom lays on this guilt trip about me moving.  I thought parents were supposed to WANT their adult kids to fly the nest so they could live the rest of their lives in retired bliss.  I thought parents were supposed to WANT their kids to be happy, so why doesn't my happiness and my needs not matter.  I do not understand.  I would think she would be happy I want to leave, and instead she just keeps pulling me in closer and closer so that I won't.

And to top it all off, she's been telling my son things to turn him OFF the idea of the two of us being on our own.  She seems to think there's a child predator behind every bush, so that he can't even walk the dog in the yard alone without her watching out the window.  Any time I let him outside, she makes him come in.  If I try to get him involved in something, she tells him all sorts of things until he doesn't want to try.  He's 10, but she still acts like he's three and made of glass.  My son has Asperger's Syndrome, and my mom now uses that to excuse everything, and she does nothing to help him out.  He acts very normal except he sometimes has a hard time interpreting social cues, and he tends to talk incessantly about topics he enjoys.  He doesn't like change, so we've had to have several discussions about what would be good about being on our own.  He's seemed enthusiastic about the idea, but now supposedly, he's terrified of losing my mom (though she didn't elaborate on what that meant) and he doesn't want to move.

I am so sick of this dance, and worst of all, it makes me doubt myself.  I don't like that at all.

[lighter]

Ummmmm, tayana.  You're mother is selfish and controlling and undermining you and your needs. 

THAT'S WHY YOU'RE MOVING OUT. 

Just accept that her behavior is going to be shocking and detrimental and keep moving.  If she could do better, she would.  She can't, but you already know this. 

 So sorry you and your son will have some pain and trauma attached to this move.  (((())))  You sound very strong and determined to me. 

[tayana]

Thanks, Lighter.  I know she's being selfish and controlling.  I know she's just trying to keep me where I am at, for some bizarre reason that I don't understand.

I had a talk with my son tonight about feelings and why we should talk about our feelings.  It started off innocent enough, and eventually he broke down and told me what all my mom had told him.  He doesn't want to leave the house we currently live in because he's lived here all his life, even though it's a rental house.  He says he can't live without Grandma and Grandpa, and I know it will be rough, but I think we could do it.  My mom told him I would have to leave him alone and that he's a good looking kid and people like to snatch boys like him.  She told him he would have to stay in day care all the time because I had to work, which is true, but not the way she meant.  She fed him all of these lies, basically telling him he would never see her again if I move out (that's the way he interpreted it).  He blamed the whole fiasco on himself, just like I used to do, and I explained that none of this was his fault.  It was my fault for not trying to break away when he was younger, but back then I didn't think I could do it.

I just feel terrible because I've messed up like this.  I tried to break away when he was much younger, and my mom sabotaged that effort until I couldn't.  I'm torn between packing my toothbrush and running as far from the woman as I can, and just going down and screaming at her.  I might scream at her anyway.  I can tell her to stop feeding my son lies, but she won't.

[Hopalong]

Tayana,
IMO you are saving your son's life and sanity by getting him away from that woman.
Poor kid has no defenses against her toxicity, but boy is she toxic.

You stick to your guns and get it going as fast as you can.

And if I were you I would get right up in her face and tell her,
if you say one more thing about child predators to terrify my son you will NOT be seeing him again.
Meanwhile, as she is that manipulative and desctructive with him, maybe she should never be alone with him anyway.
You need to supervise.

She has NO RIGHT. It's abusive and invasive and you are doing the right thing.

Your son will see that. It may take time, but he'll see it.

Hops

[lighter]

Tayana:

Kids always engage in magical thinking.  They believe bad things, good things all things happen bc of them. 

But he's still just a little boy, not an adult.  When you talk to him, and I'm sorry if you told me how old he is and I forget, talk to him in age appropriate terms.  He doesn't need to know all about your Grandma and how innapropriate her behavior is. 

1) All he needs to know is that there are things he doesn't understand bc he's too young.  Some day he will be able to understand.  You'll handle it and things are under control.

2)  He needs to know it's OK to love his Grandparents (with your blessing) and when he'll be visiting with them.  I'd actually downplay Grandma's hysteria as her being silly. 

"Of course we're going to see Grandma and Grandpa!  How silly of her that she thinks we won't!  What can we do to help Grandma understand what life will be like when we move into our own house?"  And according to his age, you can help him make a card with pictures of visits to her and maybe some plans you know you can pull off, like the visit to your new abode?  He can give it to grandma, with you standing there so she has to check her response or you can field it if she throws more fear and guilt his way.

3)  He needs to know where he's going to live and where he's going to be spending time and with whom so he feels secure and safe.  You may not know this now but you will and then you share it with him.

4)  He needs to know that you're going to handle everything because you're the adult and then you do your best to keep your routines in place. 

I'm so sorry your Mother is making this so difficult.  It reminds me of how a spouse would react when they're unhappy with being divorced.  Just remain steady and rational, be that adult who takes care of him
instead of that Grandparent who keeps asking you and your son take care of her.  He'll be OK as long as you are parenting appropriately.

[tayana]

Thanks for the supportive replies.  I was really trying to keep all of this quiet so the woman wouldn't know what I was planning and therefore couldn't attempt to sabotage my plan, but one of the complexes I looked at sent a postcard to my house.  I didn't know they would do that or I would have asked them not to.

Hops, this morning I told my mother to quiet telling my son things.  She told me she had never said anything to him, even though when I explained the things he'd said to me last night, she said oh yes, I have said that but not about this.

Lighter, my son is ten, but a little young for his age.  His emotional maturity is more like that of a child a couple of years younger.  When I talked to him, I just had him tell me what he was afraid of, and then tried to reassure him.  I try to avoid making his Grandma the bad guy, even though she makes me the bad guy all the time.  I told him that it was okay to be angry and sad and upset, but that we shouldn't be afraid of our emotions and we shouldn't keep them all bottled up inside, which is what he does. 

My mom has told him things like that if we were in our own place, I would go to the store and leave him alone.  So I explained that that wouldn't happen, he would go with me.  He wanted to know if his dog could go too, and I said maybe sometimes.  That is his big fear is that everyone is going to abandon him.  I don't understand why he thinks that because he's never been left alone, but the fear is very real. 

I can't tell him where we'll be living or where he'd be staying because I haven't found a place that is both affordable and livable.  I did tell him that he'd probably be doing some sort of latchkey type thing after school.

I'm so sorry your Mother is making this so difficult.  It reminds me of how a spouse would react when they're unhappy with being divorced.  Just remain steady and rational, be that adult who takes care of him
instead of that Grandparent who keeps asking you and your son take care of her.  He'll be OK as long as you are parenting appropriately.

It's funny you should make that comment.  This morning, my mom confronted me about why I wanted to move "all of a sudden" and I told her that it wasn't sudden, that I've been wanting to for a while.  She informed me that I was only doing this to hurt her, and I said it wasn't about her.  IT was about me.  That of course, made me selfish.  She told me not to say anything else to my son, even though I think the subject needs to be talked about, openly and honestly, since my son has so many fears that need to be addressed and he needs to be reassured.

She then told me that she and my father have gone out of their way to help me, and that she's tried to be my husband to help me out with my son.  That line just kills me.   My husband.  Normal parents would have helped me get on my feet and on my own, not done everything in their power to keep me under their control.

[lighter]

Oh my, regarding the "husband" comment your mother made.

Eek.  Yikes.  Blecccchhhhh.  Am I missing anything?

You don't need to keep banging your head against the wall with explanations to your mother, btw.  She'll keep engaging you in useless verbal struggles designed to wear you down and she won't lose any steam.  You will.

I'd sidestep her when I could.  I'd thank her for her help, "Yes, mother, you've been very supportive and helpful" and just keep looking for a decent place to move to.  You know what she's done.  She'll never see the reality and you waste energy trying to get her to see it. 

Hmmmm, withdraw with love.  That's it. 

Have you looked at renting space, becoming roomates with another single mom?  Maybe she has a house she's trying to keep and needs help with it and the bills?  You might could help each other with childcare?  I'm just thowing this out though I'm honestly worried about situations depending on any other people's goodwill and proper behavior.  Sad, but there it is. 

I picture some out of her mind woman with 12 cats, all needing to be fed at different time with 3 medications each and a schedule of kitty litter box cleanings you'll be responsible for but can't possibly meet with her high standars of 4 perfectly clean kitty box cleanings a day, her cats are better cared for than her children and you're expected to be her slave "kinda crazy."  I actually know someone like this, sans the children.   

<clapping hand over mouth>  And there it is.  I'm guilty of some of the bahaviors/beliefs people/society in general, has about women.  On the whole, women are probably driven crazy more often than men but driven none the less when they go often enough.  Men get driven crazy by women too, I've seen it with my own eyes. 

ahem, forgiveme, I digress.

It would be optimal if you landed somewhere safe with some supports in place.  I've always thought women should be more supportive of each other, though my experience hasn't been that IRL.  Oh, wouldn't it be nice if you ended up with a lovely basement apartment that had it's own entrance and nice yard and good schools?  With a lovely sane divorced mom of 2 that doesn't work outside the home and your schedules lined up nicely and you could fill in each other's childcare gaps and make financial ends meet for each of you? 

Heck, run an ad and starting asking around.  Don't ask, don't get.  Good luck, we're rooting for ya. 

 

[tayana]

Hey Lighter, thanks for the reply.  I have considered the roommate idea several times.  I thought about buying a house a couple of years ago and finding another single mom, or at least a single woman who liked kids and could help out.  I might think about that some more.

I try to avoid confrontations with the woman. I know she isn't going to be reasonable about anything so there's no point arguing with her.  Stuff like this just wears me down and makes me want to hide. 

The husband comment just blows my mind.  I'm still reeling from that one.  I think I'm going to start recording some of these things because people don't believe me when I say that she's said some of this, and she always denies it.

I don't really have supports.  My closest friend lives in Ohio.  I'm in Missouri.  Although she's very supportive through phone calls and emails.  My son's father and I have started speaking some, but not much, and I don't know how much I trust him to help.  I haven't been able to have friends because anytime I want to do something with "Friend" my mother gets nasty.  The last time I left my son with her to go do something with a friend, she made such nasty comments that I swore I wouldn't do that again.  I never have left my son with her for extended periods of time outside of when I'm at work.  She considers that taking advantage of her, so I haven't gotten to do many "friend" type things.  And dating is totally out of the question.  I wouldn't tell her if I went on a date for all the money in the world.  I hear the things she says about my brother and his wife, and it would be worse with me.  So, I'm sort of alone right now, and it doesn't feel good.  This board helps though.

[lighter]

I think it's important to remember that you're living in a very warped place, you're mother's Nspace.  Distance from her will help restore you.

The icky feelings and guilt she heaps on you, they've become part of your daily ablutions.  I'm so glad you have a therapist, I hope you can continue.

It's so unfair, what you have to battle.  I'm amazed at how hard things are, without our loved ones humiliating us, trying to murder our souls. 

Oh dear, too dramatic, lol?
Well, it is what it is. 

You'll feel better if you have a recording of her crazy conversations.  It won't be so easy to call you a liar when you push that PLAY button and she/friends hear that sweet little pie hole of her's saying exactly what you claimed she said.

I see this not so much as trying to convince her, as just defending yourself and warning her off.  You're not going to be silenced and controlled any longer.  You worry about you and your son.  You can't worry about her and caretaking her feelings any longer. 

That's a good thing; )   

[Ami]

Dear Tayana,
   I have missed you. I am so glad to hear from you,but I am sorry that you are going through so much pain,now.
   I heard some themes in  your posts. One is"Why can't they be normal?" I have asked myself and wished so many times for this very thing. I got really sick in the first place because I would not accept that they were not normal.
   I remember when they came to visit. We would go out for lunch like "normal " people and maybe to the mall. However, somewhere in there my mother would do something so outrageous or hurtful that I would be reeling. However, I would never lose the 'Dream" that if only I did the exact right thing, she would be normal. Then, she would treat me well,love me, stand up for me, take care of me etc.
  Well, I almost died in the pursuit of wanting her ( and him) to be normal..
   I think that this desire,on your part ,has to die in order for you to truly go forward, emotionally.
   I am going to pose something to you that might sound"crazy." My N mother is good to my kids(not perfect),but loving. Basically, she has always treated them in a supportive way. I have NC,now so I don't know if it would have continued.She stopped seeing them  when they were  14 and 16..
 What I am saying is that although she may do things that are not "that great' with him, she may basically be a loving figure to him. he may perceive her as a person who loves him. It sounds like you do not have much extended family.
  My maternal grandmother saved my life. Was she perfect? No. But, she loved me so much and I felt loved and special. She was the person who 'made"my mother the N,I guess.However,God used her to make a little girl with an N mother not totally give up.
  This is nothing about to move or not move. This is only about another person to love your son, even if the love is a little screwy.
  Other people have given good ideas on moving and independence. I just wanted to add  another aspect  to the situation.  If I am totally wrong on your mother, forget what I said. I just had to add this because of what my Grandmother meant to me       Hugs to you,Tayana   Ami

[tayana]

It's so unfair, what you have to battle.  I'm amazed at how hard things are, without our loved ones humiliating us, trying to murder our souls. 

Lighter, I had a friend in college who was very into philosophy, and we used to have a lot of conversations about the soul.  I used to feel very enlightened when we talked, but that was before I spent so much time living someone else's life.  Or at the very least trying to please someone who could never be please.  I'm a disappointment to my mother, even though I have a professional career, good job and good kid.  She failed to turn me into whatever it was she wanted, and I fought to do what felt right to me.  I didn't take the jobs my mom wanted, but I think a little of me died.  I don't feel so enlightened anymore.  In fact, last night I was thinking how can I be so young and feel so old?  I'm only 33.  I shouldn't feel like I'm 90 and tired of the world.  That's how I feel a lot is tired.  I just want to go home and have some peace and quiet.  I never get quiet, not with an active 10 year old, and I seldom have peace.  I just want to go home and have someone hold me and tell me everything's going to be all right.  I never have that, not unless I ask my son to do it, and I would NEVER do that.  My mom did stuff like that to me.

Ami,

Are you sure we don't have the same mother?  To answer your question, my mom is decent to my son.  I don't like some of the things she says.  I don't like the way she cuts me down and undercuts what I try to do with him, but she is at least genuiunely loving.  Far more loving than she ever was with me.

I know I need to let go of wanting a normal family.  I can't help myself though.  I used to want my mom to do normal mother/daughter things with me so bad.  My son and I go to lunch every weekend, and I'd ask her to go with us.  She would refuse. I'd ask her to go shopping or anything like that and she would refuse.  Or if she did go, she would complain the entire time and make the trip miserable.  I finally just had to let it go.  She kept promising when my son was younger that we would do all of these things as a "family" and go places and see things, but we never did.  So I finally got tired of empty promises and did them on my own.  The first time I took my son on vacation, she didn't speak to me for two weeks, and told me when I walked out with our luggage that she would be dead when we got back.  Well, she wasn't.

I suppose my mom is sort of like your grandmother was to my son.  She does make him feel loved, most of the time.  I had a crazy thought last night when I was about half asleep to go home from work tonight and say, "Fine, I'll stay here, but you are going to counseling.  No counseling.  No contact."  That was a dream though.  It would never happen.  Sometimes I feel like my parents are a pair of children, and I'm the harried adult trying to control them.  I'll never forget the day when I realized I was more mature than my mom.  It was a stunning revelation.

I went to the library to day at lunch to see if they had Susan Forward's book "Emotional Blackmail."  Which they did, so I got it and turned around and noticed one called "The Well Fed Writer."  It's a book about how to start a freelance writing career.  IT was just staring at me.  IT's something I've always considered doing, something I could be good at if I was just a little more motivated.  I got it too.  I'm not planning to quit my current job, but I think I'll read that book and see what I can do.  I've wanted to be a writer since I was 8, and I"ve persisted with it in spite of everyone telling me no.  I think I'll work a little harder.

Sorry, I got off topic.  I had considered, staying close enough to my parents that my mom could watch my son before and after school.  IT was a rather fleeting idea, but I had considered it.

[lighter]

I think the important thing for you to do is honor your own needs and desires.  If staying near your mother is helpful and you can manage to keep moving forward, maybe that's what you should do?

The important thing is to realize you have options.  Your options.  Not what your mother wants or needs. 

I guess running all this by your Therapist is happening?

I can picture you moving into your own space, close enough that your Mom can watch your son after school.  You read that book on writing and begin exploring that avenue.  Gaining strength and carving your own niche.

I can also picture you moving and having no contact with your mother, depending on her actions. 

You have choices. 

What do you want? 

What can you handle? 

Not TRY to put up with or TRY to handle? 

Time to take some seriouse stock and do some editing for your emotional wellbeing. 

Your son's wellbeing depends on yours, after all. 

[tayana]

Lighter,

I sent my therapist an email earlier.  I was in a very determined place at my last session, but that was before the loop I was thrown last night.  He was liking the planning I was doing and encouraging me to keep moving forward with my plan.  I'm not much of a planner, so planning is something very odd for me. 

I try to do a lot of visualization.  It helps motivate me.  So I've visualized have no contact with her.  I've visualized being close.  I've visualized multiple school scenarios.  I truly would prefer limited to no contact with her for myself, but my son needs to have contact with her, at least for a little while.  Truthfully, a lot would depend on her, on how hurtful and spiteful she would be.  If she's going to be nasty and hateful, then I don't want to see her.  I don't want her around my son.  If she would be somewhat supportive, I could live with that, I think.

[Ami]

Dear Tayana,
   I think that seeing that book was a "Divine" thing. That happens to me, too. It was a shock to me,also, when I realized that my kids at age   7 and 9 had more empathy than my mother.
  It is almost like being in a "horror house at a carnival. There are more and more nooks and crannies with more and more "horror" revelations.It gets worse  as you come out of denial. This is what is happening to me.Now, after I faced my mother,I am seeing my H and my father. I think that I am going to start a new thread about it.
   However,back to your situation. Are you going to let your mother watch him before and after school? I did not know what you were saying.
   Another theme that you brought up was that you did everything to please your mother. She is still not pleased and you are exhausted and discouraged.. I can so relate to this.
  I think that my one life theme was ,' I am going to make my mother love me even if I have to die doing It."It was my life pursuit and life goal. It was my reason for being
  I think that I was a very good daughter.However, I see now that my efforts were ashes.
  For me, I look back and one really good thing came  from the pain with my mother. I was forced to humble myself and find God. I was thinking back to if I could make my life different,how would I do it? FIRST, I would have a different mother. Most other things were not bad.In fact, the only really hard thing that I had was her(and my totally wimpy,subservient father).Other than that, I was blessed..
  Then, I thought that I would have never found God. The ONLY reason that I humbled myself to God was that I was totally desperate. if I could have held on to ONE shred of self esteem and autonomy, I would never have bowed my knee to Him.
  Keep Writing,Tayana. I think that your writing may be a way out                     Love Ami

[lighter]

And there's the rub, eh tayana?  

N's can't be trusted not to stab you in the back.  

Therefore, they can't be trusted not to stab our innocent children in the back either.

We limit contact with the N bc they're toxic TO US.  Fine.  Understandable.

Our children still love the N's.  We shouldn't hamper that love but we MUST protect the wee people, somehow, from a distance, when we couldn't even protect ourselves as adults?

Just a running train of thought here.

Hence, we try to have limited contact and CONTROL the N.  Not really plausible but, from what I understand, we can help balance out the destruction from being a sane stable PARENT in our children's lives.



You have another option I don't have.  You're in the position to treat Grandma like a husband, with regard to visitation and involving her in your son's life, similar situation.  
BUT,

You also have the option of choosing EVERYTHING about that.  Wow.  

Including NC, if you so choose.  

You have options.  

Part of me sees you being strong enough and backing her down with threats, like she threatens you with.  IF SHE CAN'T CONTROL HERSELF AROUND YOUR SON, THEN SHE WILL NO LONGER BE ALLOWED TO HAVE CONTACT.  Then you follow through with the consequences.  

I can't see her controlling herself though and part of me wants you to save yourself the time and trouble of this draining excercise.

Just go ahead and assume she'll cross your boundaries and decide if you can live with it.  

Does your son gain more or lose more from the contact?

Do you leave the status quo until your son is settled into a new school and has some new friends, is happy in his new bedroom and then begin limiting contact or NC?

You have choices and you seem to be very in tune with your son's feelings.  Keep validating him and letting him have his feelings.  You'll figure it all out.

(((())))) It'll be OK.