N-Mother & Dad

[sfalken]

--Modified; Personal Reasons--

[Ami]

Dear RA,
 Please read  some of my past posts. They could have been written by you. Let me say first of all, that I am so sorry that you have to go through this horror story. It is not a "human family' but a "story" of monsters and hatred where horrible things jump out from behind bushes and we are never safe. Just when we think that we might find safety(like loyalty from your F),it all crumbles and we are faced with the "monster.'
  I understand . I have been there and if I contacted them, i would be there now.
  I felt the same way that you do about my F. he got "worse and worse" as far as buying her psychotic view of life. Finally,now, he is a wind up doll to do her bidding.That is how it is .. His brains and emotions were sucked out by my N mother and he is a zombie robot.He can not think an original thought.
 It is horrible and it is a shock. You sound like you are in the first stage of facing it and just wanting to "die" from the pain of it. I was there a few weeks ago For me, having NC has helped so much. Vaknin says that the N really does suck out the inside of family members and makes them in to clones . If anyone protests,they are gone.You either stay and become psychotic or you leave with only the clothes on your back  as if  escaping from a three alarm fire.
   You sound blessed with a good wife. . It sounds like she can help give you love and caring.
  Keep writing because as you express these feelings,it gets them out and helps you to heal. I am with you in spirit-going through the same thing. Vaknin's book (although it is an extreme  measure) helped give me the 'punch in the face" that I needed to give up all hope.
 I think that you are hurting so badly because you still have the hope for a "normal" family and not the "horror' show. I still have the hope too- deep down. However, I know ,in my head, that the hope will lead me back in to the doors of Hell, so I don't act on it.            Love to you  Ami

[Green]

Welcome back Sfalken,

I am pretty new here, so I'm afraid I don't have a lot of wisdom to offer. But I am sorry that you never had the kind of parents you deserve.  Your Nmom sounds horrible, torturing both you and your daughter, and your dad sounds like a classic puppet-type enabler.  An N will never change - it is both sad and enraging.  Why did this happen to you?  I don't know, but I know it's absolutely not your fault. It's unfair. 

Sounds like you are thinking about going No Contact?  Temporarily or forever? I am curious, especially because I am now wondering if I can stand the minimal contact I have with my Nmom any longer.  Did your mom's grandparent's rights stuff go anywhere or was it just her threatening emotional manipulation? I look forward to hearing more about your story.

Green

[BonesMS]

I posted here for quite some time... and the support from everyone really helped me. It has been about 3yrs (if I remember right...) since then.

Sadly, although my life has changed quite a bit, my mother's narcissistic ways, and the way my father enables her have not changed.

I remember him how he once was. He would make it sound like he understood that she lied all of the time, and he made it seem like he had this backbone of steel when he spoke to me in private as a teenager - but when the rubber met the road, he always took her side, and as I've gotten older, I've watched him deteriorate into a shadow of the upstanding man I once respected so much, and so highly thought of.

I spent years waiting for the "real person" I knew in my father to step forward and to put her in her place - and to stand up for right, and for me for once. He never did. Sometimes I think I still expect to see him change somehow even though now I know he won't. Now he defends her lies vehemently, and he too has become a drama queen. Wild overreactions, and a sense that he has the same delusions of grandeur that she has always had, seem pretty clear now.

She's always lied. She's always tried to make me look bad to him. She would do anything she could to separate me from him and destroy my relationship with him - my father. It was like living with a little sister, not a mother. I could hear her making up lies about what a bad kid I was to my dad when he got home from work as I listened through the vent from upstairs. I would look at him when he came to confront me and think maybe somehow he knew what a liar she was - but I would still get in trouble with him. Still I forgave him and imagined that "he knew better" but that he "had" to punish me so that he wouldn't get in trouble with her himself.

I would watch her lie bold face in a room full of people (usually to get attention for herself or to make her image seem great to others) and I would think, "Didn't he hear that?.. Didn't anyone else hear that?" She was just trying to make her image look good to the people in the room that she thought were more powerful or in a higher status than she was.. Even then I knew this thing.

I'm 33. I've been through times where we were completely separated from one another - for years at a time, but for the last two it seemed "ok" as long as it was at a distance. I started to believe the lie, that it could be normal to a degree.

I should say, that her mother died a few months ago and although in every email and call she tries to live off of getting sympathy over that - I am not convinced that she actually is all that sad - I think she THINKS she is SUPPOSED to be sad and so she tries to project that to others. She is empty and cold like a snake. My grandmother was the "queen bee" of narcissism in her family and the center spoke for all of her mentally deranged siblings and her - and now she believes that she is going to take my grandmother's place as the family matriarch because she is the oldest. My grandmother's last wishes were not to have a funeral at all - to punish those whom never did what she wanted in her family - by the way, this included me. Now my mother is well on her way to becoming far worse - like her own mom.

A few weeks ago, my mother started complaining about mine and my wife's schedule, and that we didn't take out enough time for them, etc. That we didn't give them enough time with my kids (I'm divorced and that time is limited as it is...) That snowballed into a few firey phone calls and then long dramatic emails from her and my father. Suddenly my father is also taking the stance that adult children are to kind of worship their parents, and on a phone call, my mother told me that I never have respected them enough and never do or have done enough for them. She said all kinds of hurtful things. She even called my 9yr old daughter a liar for telling me that Grandma interrogates her during visits where they are alone. My 9yr old heard it and was confused and hurt. I told my mother that her behavior has to stop with my children - and she flew of fthe handle and she and my father were saying I was accusing them of some horrible thing and "how dare " I, and "you are the child, we are the parents", etc. etc. It ended bad and I told her to call me when she can talk to me like an adult.

Now she hasnt called for days and I know that she and my father are telling all of their little friends and family all kinds of lies - to make me look bad. I expect that this problem will continue for some time because she will not put away her pride to call me - she would rather "deny me" of her "glorious presence". I am mostly concerned that my children have developed quite a bond to them - (the fake "good side" of them) and that even if its just a visit now and then with me around - they will be hurt if my mother keeps this up.

My mother was saying all this stuff on the phone that day about how I never do enough for her her her - and I just said "narcissism". She said "What - are you a doctor now?" I said "Yeah - I've studied for 33 yrs.."

I know there are those that are more passive with parents like this - but I've never been that way. I've felt completely voiceless and lived with the anxiety of wanting to expose her lies and manipulation at every corner, but have always been unable. The one friend I thought I had was my dad - but he turned out to feel more like a traitor - her lackey. I've fought it every step of the way. That's me. I'm just tired now and rambling to you here - because I don't know what to do anymore. I believe that at this point, my family is headed back toward no communication with them and all of the stress that comes with that. They'll probably try the "grandparents rights" thing again - (They called a lawyer once in a rage). .I just wish I had a normal family and I don't know why this happened to me. I know one thing for sure though - It dies with her when she goes. I have power over my thoughts, and over my actions - and a lot of the personality I once believed my dad had - and I will not stand for this - and my wife (my best friend) is not that way either.

I would love to hear perspectives from anyone who made it through all of this, advice, support of any kind. I'm worn out and need some kind of encouragement to deal with this anymore. Or to know how to. Thanks all….

-RA

Just wanted to say that as I read how you stood up to both of them, my response is:  "GOOD FOR YOU!!!!"  Parents are NOT supposed to take from their children!  As a survivor of a similar N-parent, I've learned that children are NOT objects of possession to be used and abused even though my N-mother attempted to treat us that way.  I'm not sure what state you live in so I'm not certain if your state deals with "grandparents' rights".  Some states tell grandparents "Too bad, so sad!"  Hopefully, whoever they called in a rage recognized the N-rage for EXACTLY what it was.  I get the feeling that the decision for No Contact is a difficult one because there are young children involved.  At the same time, I tend to be like a tigress when it comes to protecting innocent children from N-behavior from other adults.  Just my opinion for what it's worth.

Bones

[tayana]

Sfalken, I'm so glad you found your way here, and I'm so sorry you've had to deal with all of this.  I wonder if there's something about the age of 33 that makes things go off in your mind, I'm the same age, and I'm trying to set boundaries with my parents.  I have the same arrangement as you, an N mother and enabler father.  I used to think my dad could be counted on to be my ally, but anymore, he just goes along with my mom to keep the peace.  I did that for a long time.  It was watching her with my son over the past year that made me decide I couldn't do this anymore, something had to change.  My mom isn't happy about the change.  She found out by accident, but she's going to have to deal with it.  I"m going to do make the change.

I'm glad you stood up to them.  ((((hugs)))))

[Green]

Sfalken,  NC - just shorthand for No Contact.  It is great to hear that you and your ex are on the same page regarding your kids' interaction with your mom.  And it is great that your wife is so supportive.  My husband tries to understand, too, but there are a lot of intangibles in understanding Ns that are pretty difficult to grasp unless you experience them first hand and in depth, for example, as  either as a child or spouse of an N.   

Tayana, - I love your determination!!

Green

[JanetLG]

Sfalken,

I started NC with my Nmum when I was 33 ( what IS IT about that age?!!). I'm 44 now. It's so difficult at first, but it does get easier with time if you can stick it out. I still get niggly contact-efforts from my NMum's enablers at times, but I'm learning to field them better.

It sounds like your wife is a great help to you in this - that is really good. At least you have some support in what you're doing. Talking about it here can give loads of support, too, and help get things sorted in your own mind.

I don't have children, so I may be simplifying here, but if your parents are so toxic, as they obviously are, is it such a loss that your children may grow up not knowing them? Are they old enough now to have it explained to them in some way that their grandparents' behaviour is completely out of order, and that you are not prepared to have them hurt by manipulative people? Are there other relatives who they can have a realtionship with, or friends of yours who are 'older', so that they have at least some contact with people of their grandparents' generation, but more positive? I think it's dreadful that your kids get used like this by your parents, but it's so ccommon, isn't it?

You've been through such a lot, and it's so crazy-making, but it can become clearer, honest!

Janet

[lighter]

Sfalken:

I'm so sorry your father got weaker and that your mother got stronger. 
Sorry she's unable to love you, herself and everyone else. 
All children deserve so much more. 
Your father wasn't strong enough to fend off your mother's invasion of the body snachers.  That's why she chose him. 
You were a wonderful little boy and he loved you, tried to be a normal parent. 
He lost. 
She won. 

It's interesting that you seem to have won too. 
You're pretty sure of your reality and I just loved your anwer to your mother's question, "so you're  a doctor now?"


Having our children thrown into the middle makes an untenable position impossible,  IMO.  To remain in the relationship or to go.  To limit contact or to put controls in place that jut get stomped on.  It's all a minefield and our children are walking that field with us. 

I would feel like sitting your mother down and explaining that she will continue to have contact with the children but,

she may not do A B C or D.

If she does, and she probably will, she needs to have concrete consequences that you enforce immediately, IMO. 
Expect the best, prepare for the worst.
I'd be there during visits, if you continue to have them at all.


You can explain to your children, in an age appropriate manner, why Grandma isn't going to be in your lives as much, the same way, at all, whatever needs to be explained but leave out truly negative stuff about her. Let them know it's adult stuff and they won't understand for a while, you're the parent and you'll deal with it.   
The kids are already complaining of Grandma's behavior so it may not be as big of a shock as you fear.   
They'll understand, on some level, as awful as that is to contemplate.
Hurts my stomach to think about it, just so unfair.

Again, so sorry this is happening to you all.  Life is hard enough without this improbable insanity in your lives.  But there it is.  So real you can touch it and it's not going anywhere on it's own.  The unjustice of it has a life of it's own. 


You're a lucky man to be married to your best friend, but you already know that.

If your mother continues to be terribly innapropriate with the kids, I think you'll have to end contact.  What are your choices?

On the up side, your children seem to have 2 wonderful parents.  They may go through some pain over the Grandparent thing but, they'll be fine as long as you guys are steady. 

Think about what you would have wanted for yourself, as a child, had your parents been normal and your Grandma was doing this.  Food for thought.  Good luck.