That First Handshake. What's In It For You?

[bean as guest]

wow, what a great thread teartracks

I must apologize as I've only read p. 1

Had to respond because there is so much going on here, but lighter, your post simply cracked me up, and was toof Funny.

more in a sec..

bean

[Portia]

TT, wonder if this is going where you might have imagined  

Lighter
thought about your fries night and the problem with the married guy.  Thing is, I’m not sure by the time he asks me what my story is, that I want to engage with him at all. And if I reply with a question, even a confrontational/brush off question, it’s engaging and he’ll want to reply – and so on. I don’t know. In answer to what’s my story, (in a perfect world) I might smile and say “you don’t need to know” and then get up and move away. I mean, sometimes life’s too short to interact with such jerks. Do I think giving him a lesson will have any effect on him? If so, maybe I’ll engage, but if not, heck, it’s not worth the effort, to me. Engaging with folks like that is such an effort and it’s not for my benefit really. Maybe you have much more energy than me!
I like ‘livin the dream baby!” . It would be so out of character for me. I might try it.

CB
what’s a mommy war? I wondered if this was happening on another thread (I don’t read all threads) then I wondered, because of Storm’s reply, if you meant us talking about not having kids. Having kids or not having kids isn’t a war of two sides (although sure the media over here like to encourage a ‘for’ and ‘against’ thing between women). I’m not opposed to anyone having children, although I think there are some good logical reasons for world population control. I do object to being asked why I don’t have kids by people who do have them, when they question me as though I’m a freak of nature, saying things like “but it’s what every woman wants, it’s only natural!” and other such ill-considered knee-jerk reactions. People want you to be like them otherwise they get scared and want to hunt you down for the kill…ooops….well that’s what it feels like sometimes. I don’t know CB, it’s so hard not to fall into ‘us’ and ‘them’ sometimes. Takes such an effort when the easy thing for me to think is: it’s everyone else! The world is BONKERS.

Storm
Re: the innocent question, I know, it depends on the person. Sometimes I figure that the woman asking is asking out of total ignorance, like they’ve been in a vacuum since 1955, so I go easy. Otherwise, I agree, if a lesson will do any good and is worth the effort, it’s worth a try. But I get tired. And sometimes they ask out of that morbid curiosity to have a good look at someone else’s grief/problems while tut-tutting about the unfairness of life or some such BS (before they go and tell the rest of the neighbourhood, in sympathy with your plight). Etc.
Men don't want to be responsible for some other man's kids? Well yes, finding a man who would be can’t be easy at all. But the reasons are obvious and I ain’t about to blame any man for being subservient to his biology. We are hugely slaves to biology one way or another I reckon. I just wish we understood that more, and a whole load of other things.

Sela

it is a bit of a social statement and a soaking wet palm tells me all I wanna know).

haha! I have a problem which might explain my dislike of hand-shaking. I sweat through my hands and feet. Quite a bit. Enough information? If I have a job interview (heaven forbid), I have to wipe my hands before meeting anyone. It’s a pain. And if I carry a wallet (plastic/leather) I have to use my fingertips otherwise I leave sweaty imprints! Oh please stop me now!

"Well, I do tend to be a bit grumpy when I have PMS and I don't get along well with every single person alive and can't stand the smell of tuna, so whoever brings it for lunch will earn my immediate disgust!"

I’d hire you, I love it! and I’d eat tuna every day to get you over the ‘problem’! then work up to really smelly boiled-egg sandwiches.

Might even take my shoes off at lunchtime  

Ami

How do I maintain my "wholeness" and  be a genuine person at the same time?

I don’t know Ami if I do it, and if I do, how I do it. Being ‘genuine’ is a feeling right? You may feel that I’m being genuine and vice-versa, but what’s that feeling really….(musing here)….i suppose for me it would be a feeling that in the interaction we’re exchanging information equally, reciprocally, that there’s a rhythm to the flow of information and cues etc. How do I maintain ‘me’ and my ‘wholeness’ – you mean, not go against my core beliefs, my values? Not ‘sell myself short’ or indeed stretch myself too far from what I think as the truth? Partly maybe forgetting about ‘me’ and thinking about ‘you’, partly observing ‘me’ and my feelings – that will tell me if I’m entering water that feels wrong to the core me. So that would be different for everyone I guess. Does that make any sense whatsoever? Wholeness and being genuine (truthful) go together I think, can you be one without the other, really? (Being genuine is being genuine to myself, not to anyone else).

Hi Bean 

[Hopalong]

Hi Ami, Hi P:

Do y'all think it's also about self-consciousness?

For me, asking myself if I'm "being authentic" will instantly turn me into a pile of nervous twitches. Normally, I engage with people easily. But when I stop and quiz myself or turn on the Authenticometer, engagement's over, I'm taking my own pulse, sniffing my armpits, avoiding eye contact, yakking too much.

When I just do it, meet someone in the sense of human-to-human greeting with an assumption that I keep myself safe (not them), and don't anticipate, it's usually okay. If I plan my attitude, it feels fake.

more rambling,
Hops

PS--except for the times when it's exactly the opposite and I plan my attitude like crazy. Sheesh. Glad I never promised to be consistent. 

[lighter]

Thanks Bean, lol


Portia:

It's a work in progress with regard to handling myself with more poise and confidence in public.  This goes for meeting and interacting with women, as well  as men.  Married or otherwise.  

I used to always assume people had good intentions.  I've always been blindsided by witty snide jabs and out and out hostility.  Nosy aggressive men.  Lesbians that made me feel hunted in the grocery store or Gypsies that crowded me in line at the local grocery store and touched things in my cart, lol.  Mean mean mean girls in a group, lol.... and I'm talking over 30 who maybe dated my fiance 2 times and ended up too drunk to make out each time so now, that they're having sex with the fiance's best (married) friend and is attending the social function cause his wife invited her, is taking pot shots at me bc I didn't see it coming.

 Let's face it, I've had to start being very aware of my surroundings and assuming everone has an agenda, if not bad intentions aimed for my head.  

For now, this means I'm not forthcoming on demand, simply bc people corner and question me.  It means I'm eyeballing people and letting them swing for a minute before I respond.  And when I do, it's not giving anything of myself up.  Esp if I'm not interested in interacting with them.  

I'm not interested in slamming anyone, just keeping my boundaries in tact.  

Sad but there it is.  I also try to keep from becoming a hermit.  That's my tendency anyway.  So, I'll keep testing the water and working on my poise skills.  

[Sela]

Hi all:

Hey Portia:

I have to wipe my hands before meeting anyone.

I'd never get the sweaty hand information from you because you'd take the precaution of eliminating it immediately prior to our first handshake.   Thankyou in advance.

Might even take my shoes off at lunchtime 

Lucky for me I don't get PMS, do get along with most people and don't mind tuna or egg salad, or the odd stinky foot, for that matter!  I'd work for you.
Thanks for the giggle P!

Hops:  I doubt it's as simple as identifying the character of anyone by rating their handshake.  No worries.  You're humanness comes through loud and clear, I bet, to other humans.

Mud:

A facade of stoic endurance and exaggerated integrity encourages people to be self reliant and to use sparingly the emotional and material resources of others.

Exactly an attitude worth embracing, I agree.  We are, in the end, responsible for our own lives and to do otherwise than you've described stops us from doing for ourselves, and puts the onus on everything and everyone external to us.  That should be on a banner somewhere!

Lighter:  Too bad Storm's knight in shining armour description of the server french fry guy was off.  It's a nice thought though.  But then again, who needs a white knight?

CB:

N's think they have already arrived.

They're on a trip alright! 

Sela

[teartracks]

Hi All,

Thanks for turning this thread into a stimulating discussion.   I wrote parts of this post a couple of days ago and parts of it today.  Hopefully it will make sense.  I tried, OK!


Portia,

but if someone starts asking what I do or how I live, I’m likely to be honest and folks, in general, don’t seem to like that. Some people do though, and it’s so refreshing when honesty is met with acceptance or even a mutual exchange of truly interesting information.

And there's the rub.  First handshakes/encounters are essentially a marketing tool of self.  We are taught to lead with out strongest suit, expand on it, enhance it, trade on it, guard it, flaunt it and protect it at all cost. On the surface and maybe in reality, this seems pretty self serving.  But on balance, the unspoken code has an inherant respond in kind reciprocity feature.  After all, it's not good to  pour new wine into old wineskins. 

I personally am noodling the thought that too often our schooling in how to build a balanced and mutually nurturing relationship gets stuck in that 'handshake' stage, which in my opinion is about the equivalent of kindergarten where  relationship building  is concerned.  On leaving a presenting social scene, or  work scene, or conference scene, one immediately transitions right back, is indeed propelled back into their other world, their real world  of loneliness, compulsive self examination, disordered thinking and a myriad of secret miseries.  There are exceptions, of course, but shouldn't a culture produce  more of the latter than the former?  Or is my perception of how things really are completely skewed?

Loved the Dogbert bit!

Portia - TT, wonder if this is going where you might have imagined 

Ah Portia, remember INTJ's, don't think that way!

And by the way, have you ever considered applying anti perspirant to your palms on those occasions when you absolutely must do the handshake gig?  Just a thought! 

JanetG

About asking, Do you have children?  can be touchy on several fronts.  It's touchy for me because I lost two of my three children to sudden death in a private plane crash.  When people ask me, Do you have children, or How many children do you have,  I really don't know what to say.  Though two of them are dead, I still have three children.  If I say, I have three children, the next question is usually,  Where do they live?  Then I feel very uncomfortable because it requires that I give further details.  A way to avoid it would be to say, I have one child (which I simply can't bear to hear from my own mouth, because I have three beloved children).  So I end up givng the briefest possible explanation and choose  to the belief that their question held no malice. 

Hi Beth,

I think overall this is an American trait - for whatever reason. As a whole, our culture leans toward the positive and also toward over-exuberance in general.

You're right.  Compared to other western cultures, we Americans are like adolescents on steroids.  We bounce around the feet of the world like friendly puppies as if to say, Oh, hey look at me.  Pat me on the head.  Give me a bacon bit and we'll be friends.  I'm really nice, pinky swear, I really am!  Wherever one  travels around the world, identifying 'the Americans' is so easy because of our not yet refined friendly puppy mannerisms.  Again, seasoned travelers may not exhibit the friendly puppy mannerisms, but I guarantee you that if it's a group of American students or a mixture of folk from other cultures,  the American stands out because of the over-exhuberance you mention. I'm not criticizing, just an observation and personal opinion.  I love my country, and its people.

Ami,

Humor, YES!  I wish I were not so intense...Do you think there might be a humor school somewhere I could attend for a quick course?

Ami -  How do I maintain my "wholeness" and  be a genuine person at the same time.? This is my question. I am trying to figure this one out.

Me too!

CB,

We have all kinds of little social cues in our culture.  The hand shake.  The polite small talk.  Even the bragging and posturing gives me a clue about the character of the person I am talkling to. 

This is what has my mind in a whirr lately.  It's the chasm that exists between the acceptable social cues we are so masterfully taught and our  flagrant exhibition of them  even when the hand we grasp in that initial handshake may be that of fellow human who is barely surviving life on any level.  And, who  is   socially forbidden to say so for fear of being marginalized in just about every facet of their life.  On the other extreme if a soul comes along who is given to  refreshing others with honesty, acceptance, mutuality, a willingness to address some of the deeper, less talked about human  issues , they quite possibly may be rebuffed, and viewed with a jaundiced eye.  In both instances,  I think it's because we've been conditioned generally to feel  comfortable with others most often only if we are operating according to the established code of that first handshake which falsely communicated that all is well when it really isn't.  This may be no more than a weak working theory, but it has occupied my mind a lot this last ten days or so.  I don't have the solution  I just know that a terrible void exists between a) The first handshake and b)  The opposite extreme of our humaness, our utter vulnerability.  We are functionally illiterate in our understanding of the big picture of our humaness. It doesn't help  unbend my mind pretzels that I am a big picture thinker.

lighter -

Loved the story.   After you've been peed on so much, it's just the most natural thing in the world to get pissed off! 

The Suit's opening line, So what is your story was, I believe,  a dead giveaway that he was setting you up to listen to his story and maybe to share your entire meal????. 

What do you think the Suit would have said if you'd pushed the plate of fries in front of him and told the server to put them on his bill.  Then order another for yourself?  Ooops, just saw that Sela made the same suggestion.  Right on, Sela!

Sela -  Wouldn't that be like giving big supply?  Isn't that likely what they dude wants anyhow?  A reaction he can eat up?   

For sure...love it!

Storm - Yes, introductions are fake here in this culture, and especially in this nation. I think that's because there's very little here, in the way of human interaction, that doesn't start out false. And I think that's because there's very little here, in the way of human interaction, that doesn't start out as a contest.

What you say  brings to mind Alexis DeTocqueville's DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA, where he made some staggeringly astute observations and predictions about America in its infancy that ended up being dead on.
A part of growth and maturing is the adolescent stage.  I'm not putting us down, just observing and remembering a Frenchman, was it the president? reminding our President not long ago that France was a very old country.  Our adolescence shows, but France's nose isn't getting any shorter, is it?

Storm - And that business about single mothers having a hard time finding good men? It's because the men don't want to be responsible for some other man's kids. Now, how much more conditional can it get, than that? And how much more clear and obvious does a warning sign have to be?

Storm - Because: Most of 'em [not all, but most] wouldn't care enough, they wouldn't invest enough, they wouldn't be there in a healthy supportive way, they wouldn't teach character and integrity. 'Cause they just can't extend themselves to care for another man's kids.
I know you know it, but it's just not always like that!  With dyed in the wool N's, and a variety of other abnormal approaches to life, yes, but not across the board.

My two widowed daughters-in-law each found husbands who are the exception to your observation.  They have been totally invested in fathering my six grandchildren whose natural father died.  They've worked hard to provide  for them, encouraged, and nurtured each one into adulthood (the youngest of the six is now 18).  Neither of the men had money,  But they put their shoulder to the wheel with my daughters-in-law with resolve to be good parents to my son's children, even paying college tuition up front so the kids don't graduate up to their ears in debt.  I am very grateful!


bean - wow, what a great thread teartracks

Glad you like it bean.  I'm enjoying it too!

CB - P.S.  Mud, I loved your explanation of the value of social norms.  You did a good job of getting to the basics.

Yes, you did Mud, though I have ended up challenging parts of your thinking. 

Mud -
A facade of stoic endurance and exaggerated integrity encourages people to be self reliant and to use sparingly the emotional and material resources of others.

Having been thoroughly steeped in the belief that a facade of stoic endurance and exaggerated integrity (is that an oxymoron?) and using the emotional and material resources of others sparingly and with great care (going green) is exactly what caused me to crash and burn seven years ago. The childhood abuse was displaced (thanks for introducing us to that term Storm.) with a counterfeit belief system that taught me stoic endurance and exaggerated integrity ('the handshake' that said, all is well, no not well,  very, very well).  I understand that you're not talking in absolutes in your comments, but there's a missing link, a huge void in how we perceive and address what lies between the extremes mentioned here.  I can't reconcile how things are on the subject of 'first handshakes' compared to what I think the next logical  steps could or should be, but my mind keeps telling me I ought to try.  I suppose it's the idealist in me.

tt



Smiling faces sometimes pretend to be your friend
Smiling faces show no traces of the evil that lurks within
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth uh
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
The truth is in the eyes
Cause the eyes don't lie, amen

Remember a smile is just
A frown turned upside down
My friend let me tell you
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth, uh
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof

Beware, beware of the handshake
That hides the snake
I'm telling you beware
Beware of the pat on the back
It just might hold you back
Jealousy (jealousy)
Misery (misery)
Envy I tell you, you can't see behind smiling faces
Smiling faces sometimes they don't tell the truth
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
(Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes)
(Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes)

I'm telling you beware, beware of the handshake
That hides the snake
Listen to me now, beware
Beware of that pat on the back
It just might hold you back
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
Your enemy won't do you no harm
Cause you'll know where he's coming from
Don't let the handshake and the smile fool ya
Take my advice I'm only try' to school ya

 

[lighter]

Teartracks:

Congrats on keeping that post organized and concise.  I'm truly envious of your ability to keep all the posters thoughts organized and respond to them mindfully. 

Today I'm enviouse, anyway.  I couldn't do that to save my life yesterday though responding thoughtfully to a few posts, yours and CB's included, was one thing I wanted to do well.  I'm back to multi tasking with the children and I admit it, it's not a strong suit of mine.

It's Ok though.  You said about anything I would have wished to say in yours; )

[teartracks]

Hi lighter,

Then the server reached over and peed in them too: / 

He's nothing if not just a tad protective normally, and I've only been about 5 times but he knows my story, but I was unhappy he stepped past protective and asserted some awful mail marking ritual then said he's glad he doesn't have to be single or date again, gave a YIKES face and walked off.  Normally he down plays the girlfriend and acts like he'd be happy to escort me around the world, lol.  This sounds a bit improbable but I promise you, this drama was over MY dinner last night and I'd never step on his girlfriend's toes in any way.

I find it interesting that the server the one who knows your story   was also the one who peed on your fries.  Since the suit is a regular, is it possible that he was already privy to part of it from the mouth of the server who knows you?  Is it not odd that the suit asked the question the way he did?

tt

[Hopalong]

Dang, TT...you amaze me.

Sometimes you just NAIL a really big thing in such precise and eloquent ways. Like this:

our schooling in how to build a balanced and mutually nurturing relationship gets stuck in that 'handshake' stage, which in my opinion is about the equivalent of kindergarten where  relationship building  is concerned.  On leaving a presenting social scene, or  work scene, or conference scene, one immediately transitions right back, is indeed propelled back into their other world, their real world  of loneliness, compulsive self examination, disordered thinking and a myriad of secret miseries.  There are exceptions, of course, but shouldn't a culture produce  more of the latter than the former?

My response is YESYES! But we have a crazed culture. Repressed, scary, lonely.

CB, I think the "next step" missing is such a good point. For me, it's been the UU community w/o which I'd be lost. Especially in the small groups. But I bear responsibility too. Someone asked me today, how are you? This time I bit off the "fine" and wound up telling them for about 2 minutes that there's no real support system in the culture for in-home family caregivers, and how it is. She listened caringly, I wasn't upset but it felt so good to give an honest and more depth-ful (?) answer. I was immediately lighter. I didn't need rescuing--just being heard, even for 2 minutes (and having the chance to articulate something important) was a lovely moment in my morning.

So now maybe the next time someone says How are you, and we're not in a crowd or anything, I'll pause again, and consider what I want to say.

Hops

love
Hops

[elculbr]

Could someone explain the women without children vs the women with children issue? Why is there animosity? I don't understand.

[teartracks]

Hi CB,

I think we are feeling the lack of any "next step".  We don't have a good place to get to know people on a deeper level.  There are usually community sanctioned places for that within a culture, but I wonder if we are losing ours as we become increasingly  separated.  There have been town halls, town squares, church socials, front porches in the evening, pubs, piazzas, bistros and coffee houses.  But we, as a culture, are moving away from those venues and I wonder if we are feeling the loss.

I think what you say is true and that we are indeed feeling the results.  As a culture, I think we've lost interest in placing emphasis  on first things.  We've abandoned the art of 'one anothering.' 

lighter - Congrats on keeping that post organized and concise. 

I'm not all that.    I spent two days parttime on that post.   

Hops - Dang, TT...you amaze me.

Awwww Hops, you're sweet  ]

[Hopalong]

hi El,
If you go to www.salon.com and search "Mommy wars" you'll find it mostly an overhyped conflict in print between middle and upper class women over their choice to either work or be at-home moms.

I don't think most mothers, working or not, have THAT much time to criticize each other's choices, but that's what it refers to.

Sort of like Dr. Laura vs. Gloria Steinem (whoops, did Gloria have kids? I dunno...)

Another thought, El--go find a Women's Studies professor. Hand out printouts of your first post here like M&M's to adults like that. Write CONFIDENTIAL on the envelope. Tell them you're seeking "serious, comprehensive mental health and victim services". Women's Studies depts. will be quite tuned in to the subject of abuse.

The local women's shelters, too. THAT is a place to go tell your story. They will know how to hear it. You don't have to be married to an abuser to deserve a hearing.

Hell, you could bring a civil suit against your father for abuse.

Sorry, ideas are running away with me but I want you well and I know you can make this journey. You're SMART.

love
Hops

[Stormchild]

Could someone explain the women without children vs the women with children issue? Why is there animosity? I don't understand.

Hi el

The with-or-without-children bit is what I call the 'official excuse'. What's really going on is that some people are simply competitive to the point of insanity, and for some of these people, the decision - or ability - to have and rear children, or not to do so, becomes the focus of the competition. If it weren't that it'd be something else - china painting, or poetry slams, or whose kid is a doctor versus whose kid is in the Peace Corps versus whose kid is a doctor in the Peace Corps.

A lot of women, unfortunately, are taught that the only legitimate means to self-worth is the ability to please others. In this case, competition becomes a contest ostensibly about 'other-pleasing'. Who's more fecund? Who's more nurturing? Who does the Earth Mother thing better? etc. etc. And thus we get the Mommy Wars.

Women who don't need to 'beat' other women don't waste time on this stuff. They realize that life is rough enough on all of us, women, children, and men alike, and most of us have not 'chosen' the lives we have, [as if we could waltz up to God and place an order for a million dollars, a Harvard Law Degree, and a mansion on the Hudson,] but are making the best of what we've been able to cobble together. We don't need to manufacture extra enemies just to keep our minds occupied.

Hope this helps.

PS edit in: just saw Hops' reply, and yes, I would definitely agree that it's the 'leisured classes' who waste the most time fabricating competitions over nothing...

[elculbr]

I am ot sure about passing out letters with personal information to the women's studies department. I will try it tomarrow though. I will ask if anyone has abuse resources and if they do, they I ill give it to them.

[Hopalong]

Good luck, El.

At least ask any professor before you speak to her if you may make a request in CONFIDENCE.

If she says yes, then I think she is obligated to respect your privacy.

Proud of you! Round One to EL!

Hops