Responsibilities and family

[tayana]

I didn't sleep well last night.  There's a part of me that wants the whole confrontation with my mom over and done with.  I just want to say those two words, "I'm moving." and forget all about it.  Last night, I kept torturing myself with what would happen after I moved, and today, I'm feeling pretty lousy.

I stopped to pick up the last of the documentation I needed for my apt. last night.  Today is the last day I have to back out of the lease agreement without penalty.  I was so excited yesterday.  I even bought something for my new home when I went to get a card yesterday.  Today, I feel a little like I"ve been punched in the gut.

I've been visualizing what life in my new home will be like, but now I"m panicked.  There's a few weeks in the summer where there are no camps, so I don't know what I will do with my son.  I'm sure my mom will refuse to watch him.  The old "you made your bed now you lie in it," line.  I've come up with some ideas, but I still feel sick over the whole thing.

I kept hearing the things she would say to me, and I kept trying to rehearse the non-reactive, non-defensive answers I'd planned, but they didn't work.  It kept degenerating into, "This is your fault, Mom.  I'm moving because of you, because I can't trust you.  You betrayed my trust, and now I have to wonder what else you lied about.  I have to wonder what else you've done and said to my kid, because he's been very forthcoming lately about the things you've said and did."  I kept imagining that my mother would either try to kill herself, or else she would sit around and mope and feel sorry for herself.  I kept hearing my dad say, "You're killing your mother."  And I think she'll do that.  I kept telling myself, "You are not responsible for her.  What she chooses to do is not your fault?  If she gets a gun and shoots herself, you didn't kill her."  I kept thinking, "She should have some other purpose in live besides controlling you and your child."

Talking with my brother the other night was a surprising help, because he understood.  He told me I had to do what's best for my son, and this is what's best for my son.  I know that.  I know this is a good thing, but I don't understand why I feel so lousy over it.  I just keep telling myself you aren't responsible for her.  I figure if I tell myself enough I might believe it.  Funny though, so far I haven't.

[Hopalong]

Tayana,
YOUR SON COMES FIRST.

It's a deep universal imperative. You are magically wired to love your son so much that you would do anything to protect him and give him the best environment possible. He's already got challenges with his Asperger's.

HE DOES NOT NEED OVEREXPOSURE TO A TOXIC DISHONEST MANIPULATIVE NARCISSISTIC GRANDMOTHER.

Sorry for the shouting but I exposed my D to an Nish stepfather and my Nish mother for years and it damaged her.

You have this chance to use the maturity in you that's taken you this far in your plans.

Also: let it be okay that it is your mature mind that has made this decision and will follow through. Your emotions will come and go and they may include waves of guilt or uncertainty and that's okay. YOUR EMOTIONS DON'T HAVE TO DECIDE, because they're conflicted. It's your clear mother-mind that made the decision.

And your clear mother-mind is intelligent and wise and on the side of being a protective, loving, parent to your son.

courage, this transition will pass and you will know, both mind and feelings, that you were a mother first, a guilty daughter second -- and that's the correct order!

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

And that's just it, isn't it?  N's cause so much upset and fear that you dread doing something healthy and normal bc the consequenses of going against them have been so traumatic in the past, that you're practically paralyzed with ominouse forboding. 

I don't even think they plan it that way.  I think it's a lucky byproduct of their relentlessly pushing their agenda with no thought for anything but immediate self gratification on their part. 

it's what they do.

I think once you get out you'll breath a breath of releif.  You're in a great position to get out cleanly and limit contact if she's bezerko, which she probably will be.  If not sooner, then you can expect it later.  It's coming. 

A little distance will help, I promise. 

Don't let her continue to  keep you in chains tayana.  That's just so wrong and she'll keep sabotaging you at every turn.  Haven't you got enough of that to undo yet?

Buck up and be a soldier.  I dread that confrontation for you too.  It will come and go, however so get it into perspective.  Write about it and explore your feelings about it so you can be grounded when it happens and feel confident in your feelings when she begins pulling her N hoo doo on you.  It is confusing but you need to work through the confusion and be the best PARENT you can be.  That's your job now.  Not ducking out of uncomfortable positions, like dealing with your mother's irrational responses. 

Put on an imaginary helmet that keeps out her words and keep moving, dear.  You'll be fine once your out. 

((tayana))

[lighter]

I also want to add that you've found a way getting a place to live.  You'll find a way to deal with getting your son care for those weeks during the summer too.  Is there another mother that he can stay with?  All kids are going to be bored out of their heads and another mother, with a boy your son get's along well with, may be glad to take your son and you can offer to pay her or take her son at times she needs help with sitting.  Maybe a combination or you could ask a few moms, who's son's will be bored out of their heads too and looking for some way to keep them occupied.  Line it up and make it happen. 

Having a playmate around can make things easier when schools out. 

I'm just sayin.  Ask and see what happens.  Just like with the housing problems.  You can do this. 

[tayana]

Hops, Lighter, I made this post just so I could get a kick in the seat.  I had a friend call me last night out of the blue as I was driving home.  I was so surprised, and it was so  nice.

I even called to see if I can move my scheduled appt. with my T up so that I can talk to him before I tell her.  I think I might need the therapy before that.

HE DOES NOT NEED OVEREXPOSURE TO A TOXIC DISHONEST MANIPULATIVE NARCISSISTIC GRANDMOTHER.

Ironically, this is the one thing that keeps me moving forward.  I don't want her to do to my son what she did to me.  And if that means she never speaks to me again, I guess that's how it will be.  It'll be rough for my son, because he doesn't understand what's going on, and I don't know how to explain.

Lighter, I don't know too many moms right now.  I plan to rectify this in the future.  I'd really like to meet some other single parents.  Moms and Dads and maybe get a playgroup going.  I think that would be fun, and we could co-op together.  Part of my mother's "damage" is to keep us very isolated.  We live in a very rural area and we have no neighbors. Nice in one sense, but not so good in another.

And that's just it, isn't it?  N's cause so much upset and fear that you dread doing something healthy and normal bc the consequenses of going against them have been so traumatic in the past, that you're practically paralyzed with ominouse forboding. 

This is it.  I dread doing normal things.  I'm trying to decide, once the rage is past, if my mother is just going to wash her hands of us or if she's going to pull the crap she pulled when I did live on my own--calling all hours, calling my boss, etc to check on me.  Basically, stalking me.  I suppose I'll deal with that when it happens.  The police are going to be right next door, maybe I can ask for a permanent guard.

[debkor]

Tayana,

When your father says this is going to kill her. I don't think he means she is going to fall over and die.  This is going to kill her that she has lost control and who is going to get the brunt of things Tayana?  Dad!!  Dad is still there.  You and your son has made an escape and her eyes are going to turn to your father *full time now*.  God help him but this is his choice.

I think he is dreading your move and the dramatics as much as you knowing he is left with her alone and the number *one* yak yak yak, they were mean to me, I'm going to die, She did this, they did that, OMG and he knows it will just be him and rant-a-rama!!

Your a good Mom Tayana.  You'll be OK. 

Love
Deb

[tayana]

Am, You know what?  I think you're right.  I think hoping she will wash her hands of me is almost wishful thinking.  I don't think she will.  I think she'll be a right royal pest, personally.  I think it will be just like it was when I was at school, only worse. 

Deb, my dad has never actually said that to me.  That's my overactive imagination playing out various scenarios.  I had this vision of her sitting around moping and him telling me that.  BUt still, he's dreading the dramatics, I know he is.

Your a good Mom Tayana.  You'll be OK. 

You know what?  No one has ever said that to me.  You don't know how much that means.  I asked my son once if he thought I was a good mom, and he said yes, but I think he's biased.  My parents just criticize my parenting skills.  It has long been my goal to nurture my son's creative, free spirited nature.  The world needs people like that, and I've managed so far.

[tayana]

This will be long sorry

When you say that your F says that it will "kill" her,it shows(me,anyway) that he is a co conspirator.
  I was thinking of all these people telling their stories and being "shocked" when people say that it is abusive.
  I am guilty of being shocked that my life is so bad. However, I can see your M  and it IS abusive. She is really bad and really demeaning. It is THAT bad.
   I am telling you because  I really need people to tell me or I will go back in to,"Maybe,it is not THAT bad."  Then, we don't have to go forward     

Am, this really struck me.  About a week before I found out what my mom had done to my credit, with the lawsuit and everything.  Something, I can't remember what, maybe she was yelling at my son, made me think I can't do this anymore, so I wrote the following.

I sometimes toyed with the idea that my mom was abusive, and I think I even said something to her once.  She told me I didn't know how good I had it, that I hadn't been beaten or burned or anything like that.  I wasn't abused.  I let myself believe that for many years.  There was a point when I had to say, "I don't think this is the way parents are supposed to be."  And there were times when I kept saying, "I wish my parents would . . ."  I still look at my life and wonder is this really abuse?  I know it is, it's psychological abuse.  I understood this ten years ago when I was pregnant and my mom was making me feel guilty for a mistake.  I just chose to ignore it for a little while.  I almost wish she would have beat me, at least then, the scars would be outside where people could see and understand, instead of on the inside where no one can see, and not many people see past my mother's superficiality to see the darkness lurking underneath it all.

My mother for many years, even until after I was well into my teens, chose my clothes, my friends, my food and everything. My hobbies were denigrated. I was screamed at for wanting any sort of independence. I was allowed no privacy. She would come into my room and go through my things whenever she pleased. She denied it when confronted, but I knew she had been in my things. I could tell from he way she would stop speaking to me for weeks at a time.




We moved to a community outside of St. Louis when I was 12. My mom decided she was going back to work not long after we moved here. She didn't want to be stuck at home alone in the country all day. Because she had to work nights and weekends, I was expected to take on more responsibility around the house. At 12, I was at an age where I wanted to assert some independence, instead I had to grow up. Responsibility around the house included most of the housekeeping duties. My mom worked nights and weekends mostly, so I came home from school and was alone until my dad came home. On the nights she worked, I was expected to cook dinner, clean up the mess, clean up the house, and still do all of my homework and get straight A's. I resented it. I resented that she spent less and less time at home, and I was doing more and more of the work. I cleaned the kitchen, the bathroom, vacuumed, kept my room clean, dusted the whole house . . . plus the cooking when she was gone. It was too much for a 12 year old, and worst of all, I did it for $5 a week. I didn't matter anymore, and so I wrote about how I felt in a diary, calling my mom a bitch because of the way she treated me. She found the diary. She never said she did. She never talked about what she found. But she didn't speak to me, with no explanation, for over two weeks.




I was only twelve. I wasn't ready for that sort of responsibility. Worst of all, my dad let her do it. His advice to me has always been, just take it with a grain of salt.




I remember being slapped once for not organizing my closet the way she wanted.

I remember being screamed at for wanting to give the dog a bath outside.

I remember feeling ashamed and wanting to fall into one of my books and vanish.

I remember hating myself all the time.

I remember thinking I was the worst child in all the world, so instead of talking about the issue. I tried harder to please her, did more, did it better. It never worked.

I remember being told not to run to my dad after she had screamed at me.

I remember her telling me I could ask her about anything, and when I did ask, she was offended by my question.

I remember asking her at 15 what she would do if I was gay. She said she'd love me anyway. I didn’t believe her.




I went to school out of state as far from home as I could safely get. I wanted away from them. I wanted to be on my own. I turned down a full scholarship at another college closer to home, a very wise move, and instead moved to Decatur, IL. I loved college. My parents had never allowed me to do anything on my own. I wasn't allowed to date, but I wasn't really interested either. I had a car accident when I first got my permit, and I was so scared, and my parents' reaction so bad, that I refused to drive. I had been kept isolated. I felt alone. I felt unloved. I felt pressured. I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me.




In many ways, going to college was a great thing. I did get some real confidence and self esteem, but I didn't feel as though I belonged anywhere. I had no social life. I didn't really have friends, and I didn't know how to make any. There was a dark side to my college experience that most people didn't know about.




My mom called almost every night, and if I didn't answer, she would continue calling until I did.




She once called my dean when I expressed frustration about the long lines during registration. I was called to the dean's office.




She almost didn't pay my tuition my freshman year. She forgot. When I called in a panic, she told me it had been taken care of. She bought me a $3000 oboe to make up for it.




I was berated for not getting good enough grades, even though I somehow managed to maintain a 3.5 GPA and stay on the Dean's List all through school.




She threatened to come and get me once if I didn't call her back. She'd called when I was at work. I'd ended up working a double shift because someone didn't show up. I didn't get home until one in the morning. I'd decided to call in the morning.




She screamed at my roommate once when she wouldn't let her talk to me immediately because she was on the other line.




She told me that I acted like I was better than them because I had an education.




I suffered from severe depression all through school. I was an introvert by nature, and my bid for independence wasn't working. It would get worse.




My sophomore year, I called home on Mother's Day. No one would talk to me. They didn't want me to know that the bank had foreclosed on our house. They didn't want to upset me. No, they were just going to let me come home and discover that I had no home. That was the first time my mom threatened suicide. I went home for the summer three weeks later. I stayed with my brother and slept on the floor.




She stalked me all through my senior year. Calling my work, the dean's office, a professor. She threatened to take my truck away, even though I'd bought it. I was too young to know she couldn't have done any of that. I was an adult. I tried to move to Indiana to get away from them, but I was pregnant. The father wanted nothing to do with the baby. I ended up going home when my money ran out and I still didn't have a job. It was going to be temporary.




I finally got on my feet when my son was about three. I paid off most of my debts. I'd gotten a good job and had some money in the bank. I was starting to look at being on my own again. When I said something about it, my mom maxxed out my credit cards. She also taken out other cards in my name and maxxed those out as well. I was stuck paying off the debts, and my credit was ruined.




My son is 10 now. I'm still stuck at home with her. In the past three years, I have paid off my debts and gotten my credit cleaned up. I'm going to try another bid for freedom. I'm dreading it. I should be excited. I should be able to share this excitement with my family, but I don't dare say a word, or something else will happen to sabotage it.




In the last ten years, my son was diagnosed with learning disabilities and Asperger's Syndrome. He's a challenging child. I recognize some of his traits in me.




I currently walk on egg shells around my mother and try to avoid her as much as possible. A simple question can set her off. I'm afraid of her, afraid of what she'll do when I leave, and I hate it.




In the last ten years, I've accepted what I asked my mom about when I was 15. I'm lesbian. I'm afraid of her finding out, and amazed she doesn't already know. It causes a lot of stress hiding. I want to tell my son, desperately before homophobia becomes ingrained, but I can't risk this living at home.




I have a secret bank account. Emergency money. It has now become escape money.




I have been controlled all my life, mostly through fear. I've never had the things I really wanted, my parents' love and support. I was never supported. I was a trophy, a prize to show off. Examples of this that have happened recently abound. My mom has decided I'm going to become a member of her church. I don't attend regularly, and don't want to be a member. The Methodists aren't necessarily gay friendly. I know, I wrote their main office and asked. She's decided she will find us a house, and I will move with them, only I get no say as to the location of the house or what kind. At my previous job, she called my boss and complained about my working conditions, thereby destroying any negotiating power I might have had.




I CANNOT DO THIS ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is my bid for freedom, and it's going to work this time d*****. Somehow, it's going to work.

[Hopalong]

Hi Tayana,
Once you get the move done, and your son settled, and stop feeling the constant tension of That Woman looming over you...I think you need a loving, supportive community OF YOUR OWN. Here's one place (my church) to try:

http://www.uua.org/visitors/justicediversity/6252.shtml

Sheesh. You are a very impressive woman and you have a whole lotta life ahead. Don't think for a moment that this tough transition is the end of you. Au contraire, it's more like the beginning.

(((((((((Tayana, just as She am)))))))

Hops

[tayana]

Thanks Hops.  I had a bit of a cry in the shower tonight, and another talk with God.  I am convinced this is going to be a good thing, even if no one else thinks that yet.

I had a very good friend tell me the other day,  "Don't let your mom hurt you anymore."  She's listened to me complain enough, and she's been telling me I needed to move for a couple of years. 

It's been a very sad evening, one of my son's ancient goldfish passed on to fish heaven.  He's terribly distraught.  We had a funeral and everything.

I do need a supportive community of my own.  I'll find that somehow.

[JanetLG]

Tayana,

I do feel for you. You've been through so much already. Your mother should never have been so bloody selfish as to control so much of your life so far with her ideas.

Of course it feels daunting to be so close to getting away from the cow. But you'll manage it, and then you can start to work on getting what you and your son need to get a good life sorted.

As to the threats by your mum (and repeated by your dad) about your mum possibly committing suicide...my mum started threatening that to me (and only me), when I was about 30, a year after I met my husband-to-be, when we were planning our wedding and it had finally got through to her that I was going to be with him, not her. In one argument, I even said to her 'Don't push me to make me choose, because you might not win.'

After that, whenever we had a row, she'd threaten to kill herself. It tore me apart - I just couldn't handle the 'responsibility' of whether she lived or died. It all seemed to be my fault. Then I mentioned her threats to a good friend at work, who'd been abused by her father in childhood, while her mother knew about the abuse.'Oh, she's trying that one now, is she? Must mean you're getting away from her!' was her response. Apparently, her mother threatened suicide, regularly, every three weeks. She'd been doing it for about 5 years.

It's such a strange N trait - they threaten suicide, but apparently wouldn't bring themselves to actually do it, because that isn't what they intend at all. They just want to scare you with the ultimate guilt trip. 'You'd be responsible for my death!' How terrible! What would people think? Of course, to an N, this is ALL they think about - the perceived response from others.

Actually, THEY would be responsible for their death.

But it won't come to that, it's just a bluff, so don't be put off by that one. As has already been mentioned, if your dad is repeating this threat to you, he's probably more worried that the attention will turn from you to him, so he'd rather you stick around and take it.

On the subject of how you had to do everything around the house when you were 12 - that could have been written by me! The only 'added extra' in my story is that I was expected to lie to my dad about where my NMum was when she should have been at home (she was out having an affair).

What they do to us! It's amazing we have the strength to go on, sometimes.

Get yourself away from her, tayana, you deserve so much more.

Janet

[JanetLG]

Ami,

In a twisted way, this is really funny:

"My H's mother used to threaten suicide whenever my H found a girl that he was interested in. His M is 92."

Janet

[tayana]

Janet,

I'm feeling better today.  I don't know what was up with yesterday.  I think I was just tired and dreading the confrontation to come.  Yesterday, I turned in the last of the paperwork I needed and got the electric service transferred to my name.  It didn't feel good at the time.  I seem to feel better when I have definite "plans."

I decided that I will tell my mother on Sunday night, after my brother and his wife leave.  We will be having a father's day celebration.  I was going to tell her tonight, but I didn't want to be responsible for ruining the holiday.  I don't mean that literally.  I just mean that I didn't want to have a big guilt trip over ruining the weekend for her. I can live without that.  I've decided I want to speak to both my parents, and I will sit them down and ask if we can have an adult conversation.  When I get the "You're just doing this to hurt me" line, I'm going to say something like:

"I'm sorry you feel that way, and I'm sorry your feelings are hurt.  But I have some very practical and economic reasons for wanting to move."  I will list those, and of course, she won't believe me.  She'll start to rant, and I'm going to say, "I get my keys Tuesday.  I'm planning to move on X day.  I thought I would pack this week, and next week I'll start taking little thing on my lunch break.  Nothing you say is going to change my mind.  I wanted to tell you now, and when you are feeling a little calmer we can talk about the details."

It's such a strange N trait - they threaten suicide, but apparently wouldn't bring themselves to actually do it, because that isn't what they intend at all. They just want to scare you with the ultimate guilt trip. 'You'd be responsible for my death!' How terrible! What would people think? Of course, to an N, this is ALL they think about - the perceived response from others.

Actually, THEY would be responsible for their death.

Last night, I sat down with my laptop and I worked through some of the exercises in the Toxic Parents book.  I really like this book, even if it does make me cry.  One of the exercises is to make a list of the things I'm not responsible for, so I did.  Here is my list.

I am not responsible . . . .

·   For my mother's rages and unpredictable behavior.
·   For my feeling unloved.
·   For my feeling worthless.
·   For my mother's financial irresponsibility.
·   Her problems
·   Their happiness.
·   Their anger.
·   Their pain.
·   Their suffering.
·   For helping my mother heal.
·   My mother's abusive childhood.
·   For making my mother fat.
·   Making her miserable.
·   Stealing her life and dreams.
·   For my dad not standing up to her


Seeing it written out like that, and sitting there and thinking about it, made a lot of difference to me.  I feel a lot stronger today.  I'm carefully reading the section about confrontations right now, and I think, maybe, after we're moved and settled and in a new routine in our new home, I'd like to confront my mom and say, "You hurt me and here's why."

[JanetLG]

Tayana,

It was Toxic Parents that gave me my first 'AHA!' moment. Brilliant book, but yes, it's very painful to work through.

Your list, though, is great. You're certainly NOT responsible for any of those things, obviously.

I think what you're planning to tell them is great. They might not listen to the end, though. It might be worth having a 'printed version' to hand to them if it gets so bad that you have to walk out before you've finished telling them everything you need to, otherwise you've got to set up the whole 'adult conversation' again. Just a thougt.

Janet

[Stormchild]

Hello tayana and Janet

I'm going to be very non-politically correct but I think you both need this affirmed and validated, so it's worth the risk.

There is something called 'parasuicidality'. It is a manipulation, and it is generally used by people who have borderline personality disorder, or similar problems.

It is the use of threats of suicide as a manipulative tool, to blackmail people into doing what the manipulator wants them to do.

It can start out very early. I vividly remember a young man in my high school who constantly threatened to 'wrap his car around a tree' if young women wouldn't sleep with him. It was bogus, totally bogus, but it worked on several of his targets.

Now. I am not saying all suicidality is bogus. Far from it. And in addition, parasuicidality can be quite dangerous. There is a real risk of someone who is parasuicidal 'slipping up' and actually completing a suicide.

Most laypeople don't understand that there is such a thing; or we've been taught to take suicidality seriously without being taught how to understand it. So, we are prime targets for manipulation by parasuicidality.

When someone threatens suicide, especially if they have a pattern of doing so, think, if you can, about what triggers these threats.

If they are triggered by depression, by life setbacks, by major disappointments, it's probably not parasuicidality. But if they are triggered by frustrations, by not getting one's way, and especially by not getting attention or drama when the person is trying to create drama or get attention... when they feel distinctly 'aimed' at someone... then it may very well be parasuicidality you are dealing with.

If you believe that you are on the receiving end of parasuicidal manipulation, you can be concerned for someone's welfare without allowing them to blackmail you. Advise them to get to a therapist or an emergency room. Monitor them, but maintain your emotional separateness. If you think they are going to act out, you can call 911. You don't have to let them control you. You can call their bluff in constructive ways, instead. And there is nothing disloyal about doing this. It is, in fact, the most constructive response to suicide risk of any type.

Our highest loyalty should be, when possible, to reality; we can preserve that loyalty while remaining compassionate.

Here is a Google search on parasuicidality.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=parasuicidality&btnG=Google+Search