Responsibilities and family

[Sally]

"My dad has moments when he acts like an adult, but mostly he goes into these sulks and says nothing.  The night I had to call 911 for my mom, he told me, "Go out there and talk some sense into her. I can't do anything with her."  I was so angry that night.  I was angry with my mom for pulling such a stunt, and angry with him for making me the mediator, peace-keeper, and really putting me in danger.  While I was on the phone with 911, he was sitting in the den reading, as if nothing at all was going on.  I was so mad.  I even told him before I went out to talk to my mom that he should call 911.  He wouldn't even go to the hospital.  I had to go."


Oh Tanya,

I completely relate to the insanity of your story.  I highlight it to because as I look back at similar crazy making incidents, I pledged this to myself:  NO MORE!  I will not allow myself to be manipulated thru crazy making scenerios such as the one you described.  It's a new day and a new me.

From now on, when a crazy making incident is unfolding and I feel like I'm being sucked into someone else's drama, I step back and ask myself:  Do I want to participate in this?  I remind myself that I cannot control other people's reactions, I can only control my own reaction.  A key word would be "disengage".  Now, I focus on my actions, my reactions because I've learned a lesson that perhaps people with N parents never learned:  We are not responsible for our N parent's actions/reactions, thoughts/emotions.  

It takes a lot of courage to disengage because it goes against our upbringing.  But, once you start doing it, it becomes easier and then, perhaps, it becomes second nature.

Tanya,you are strong, courageous and have many good ideas.  You are OK and you can make it on your own.  Please believe in yourself and delete the 'garbage' thoughts from your mind.

love,
Sally

[Sally]

Sorry Tanya, but I want to answer Ami:

Hi Ami Sweetheart,

Yes, I felt drained by both.

Stormchild really helped me when she said that my NM was jealous of me.  I then started reading and saw jealousy is a characteristic of Ns.

But, I felt so bad about the idea that NM was jealous of me, because Ilooked at my entire life with her (she's dead now) and I felt like my relationship with her was like Alice in wonderland:  what parts were real and what was an illusion.  Anyway, I could not stop crying for a week, but perhaps I've emerged stronger.  Right now, I am trying to focus on being good to me and self care.

So, I find that the journey thru the N maze can be exhausting and sometimes I need to cocoon in order to regain my strength. 

But, Ami, I see you have made AMAZING progress.  I know it hurts like hell, but I see a new and stronger Ami emerging.  Just give yourself time.  I have found that there are no short cuts to exiting the N maze.

Again, sorry Tanya; this is about YOU.

Love,
Sally

[tayana]

Sally, thanks so much for chiming in.  I hope you are feeling better and stronger.

Do you have to have this confrontation/conversation with your parents?

Actually, yes.  There are reasons I want to have a confrontation where I get to say, "I'm leaving and here's why."  First of all, if I just slip out and go to the new place, I'll feel guilty about that.  I'll feel guilty because I never got to face her and say, "I'm moving and there's nothing you can do.  My lease is signed.  I just have to do a walk through and get my keys."  I think it's more for me than her, really.  I've always been afraid of her, and I want to face my fear. 

How about learned?  How about what you learned growing up in that nutty place?  Have you been taught to feel guilt and be responsible for others?  Then, yep, it's normal.

I suppose the guilt is a learned thing.  I remember once when I was seven or eight, I guess, that my mom was taking a bath and hurt her back.  I didn't know what to do, but I knew I had to do something.  My mom told me to do nothing, but in my child's mind, my mom was hurting and I needed to do something.  So I called a family friend and asked her to come help.  My mom actually got angry because I did this, but I wanted to help her, so I did the only thing I knew how.  I called another adult. 

From now on, when a crazy making incident is unfolding and I feel like I'm being sucked into someone else's drama, I step back and ask myself:  Do I want to participate in this?  I remind myself that I cannot control other people's reactions, I can only control my own reaction.  A key word would be "disengage".  Now, I focus on my actions, my reactions because I've learned a lesson that perhaps people with N parents never learned:  We are not responsible for our N parent's actions/reactions, thoughts/emotions. 

When one of these incidents happens now my mind sort of goes away, and I don't focus on her or on the conversation.  I just sort of float.  I don't know if that's what's called dissociation or not, but I don't really react or say anything, just sort of float above it all.

Stormchild really helped me when she said that my NM was jealous of me.  I then started reading and saw jealousy is a characteristic of Ns.

My mom's behavior has always been odd, but since she quit work it has really gotten odd.  I have often thought she is very jealous of me being young and having a career when she's stuck at home feeling sorry for herself.  I even told a friend once I thought she was jealous.  It sounds so bizarre, but I think it's the truth.

Again, sorry Tanya; this is about YOU.

Not a problem Sally.  I like to listen.

[Sela]

I did the only thing I knew how.  I called another adult.

 

You did the responsible thing.  You acted responsibly to care for your mother.  For that, you were put down, told off, punnished, whatnot.  That must have hurt! I'm so sorry for every single hurt you have endured, Tanya.  That's not what mothers are supposed to do.

Do you see how the guilt you felt was molded?  I bet you do!  Maybe it would help to try really hard to think about that every time you feel guilty or have a guilty thought from now on?  Ask yourself:  Am I really responsible here or is this learned guilt?  Is this about me or my words/actions or someone else's reaction/response to them?

I've always been afraid of her, and I want to face my fear.

You have already faced and over ridden that fear!  You signed the lease!!

I still advocate with Sally for confronting later, when you can be totally calm and focussed, rather than now, at a time when you have so many other things to keep track of and do.  Moving is stressful for anyone.  Wouldn't you do better in a confrontation when you are under less stress?  I'm also with Mud, in that it will likely benefit her more than you, at this time.....give her the heads up to try to make moving day a disaster.  Look at her history.  She will likely do everything in her power to upset/mess up your brave choice!   I get that you want to tell her why you're leaving.  It's her reaction/response that I don't get you wanting at this point.  However, I don't know a whole lot about anything and you must do what you think is best.  Just please.......refuse to feel guilt about it.  You are doing the right thing!!

Sela

[Sally]

"Actually, yes.  There are reasons I want to have a confrontation where I get to say, "I'm leaving and here's why."  First of all, if I just slip out and go to the new place, I'll feel guilty about that.  I'll feel guilty because I never got to face her and say, "I'm moving and there's nothing you can do.  My lease is signed.  I just have to do a walk through and get my keys."  I think it's more for me than her, really.  I've always been afraid of her, and I want to face my fear.  "

Hi Tanya,

You want to have the confrontation.  OK.  Tanya,please understand that I say this with love, but, can you participate in a way that you won't drain yourself of strength and energy?  Can you set a limit,like, when she threatens suicide, you will leave, or whatever limit you want to set?

I understand you want to face your fear, but you have the ability and the right to face that fear in the time, place and manner of your choosing.  You don't have to play the old game her way.

And, Tanya, I think you are ALREADY facing your fear:  You have signed the lease and you're leaving!!  You've faced that fear.

Again, saying this with love:  please think about what you are getting out of this anticipated confrontation.  You probably know how she will respond, what she will say, you could probably write her lines.  So, do you need, do you want to go there again?

Just,please, fortify yourself and do not let her destroy/hurt you any more than she has.  Perhaps I'm over reacting, but do you feel like a soldier who prays to God for protection before the battle?

Love,
Sally

[tayana]

And, Tanya, I think you are ALREADY facing your fear:  You have signed the lease and you're leaving!!  You've faced that fear.

True.  I have, and it feels really good.  But I'm still terrified of my mother at times. Sometimes I'm not. 

So far today, I have received 3 phone calls at work.  One to tell me that my son didn't need anymore socks.  He had socks she didn't know about.  One to see if I was at my desk (no joke, if she calls and I don't answer, she thinks I'm dead or doing something I shouldn't be), and just now to ask about a birthday invitation my son received from a friend.  The woman goes through my mail.  She makes comments about my mail, for crying out loud.  How stupid is this?  I'm just afraid to tell her, "please don't call me at work about silly things."

I hate that I feel so afraid of a woman who can really do nothing to me, except pound home those feelings of guilt and shame she's so practiced at piling on.  I literally am petrified when I try to have a real conversation with her.  The words just dry up in my mouth.  I think that's why I need to be able to say, "I'm moving."  If I don't, I'll continue to feel like a coward, because that's how I feel most of the time.

That, and I'm tired of hiding.

[Sela]

Well, actions speak louder than words and you're taking action.

You are moving!!!

You are not a coward, in any sense.  I bet, underneath it all, you know that asking her to not make silly calls to you at work.....won't stop her (and might actually increase the behaviour).

Is there any way you can block her number (once you move, I suppose) or change your number or at least.....ignor her calls/not answer/call screen?

I also bet.....the fear is actually anxiety.  The results of her behaviour on you cause anxiousness??  It's dang upsetting to be interupted at work like that all the time!  It's frustrating!  It's a waste of time!  It's childish behaviour but.....for you....it's just plain a pain!!

So when she opens her mouth.......you feel anxious because you have learned that she is probably going to say something derogatory, upsetting, frustrating, childish or something that interupts, unnecessarily...what you're trying to do?  And what you try to say....is silenced!  No matter what you say it's wrong/off/dumb/whatever?  Thus, the fear of having to go through all of that.

Will saying "I'm moving" today give her more opportunity to respond as usual or less?
Will saying "Im moving" on moving day give her more opportunity or less, to respond as usual?

And more important....which will cause more anxiety for you?  She'll have from now 'til then to berrate you.

Your mother is a piece of work!!

And you are doing the best you can to protect yourself and your son from her!

Way to go Tanya!!

Sela

PS:  On edit, I have to sign off now.  Keep going Tanya!  Keep talking and working through this!!  You are amazing!!
You really are!!  You have done so well regardless of all the "training"!  Keep going girl!!

[tayana]

Sela,

I have had problems with anxiety for years.  The fear I feel is at least in part anxiety.  I guess, a part of me, still hopes she will see me as an adult and she will treat my decision as an adult well thought out one, instead of a knee jerk reaction to my perceived hatred of her.  It is in part, because finding out she had undertaken an entire court proceding in my name, forged my name to court documents, made me really angry.  So, I guess a tiny part of me, hopes that she will surprise me by not having the reaction I expect, and will sulk for a few days instead and eventually be supportive.

I know this isn't likely, but I keep hoping.  I have to let go of this hope.

I think telling her today, well Sunday actually, will give her time to have her totally unreasonable reaction so that when the rest of my family, the relatively normal ones, help me move, that she will at least be rational.  If I wait till moving day, she's likely to pull her suicide stint.  Before then, she just won't speak to me for several days and will cling to my son like an ant on a sugar cube, but on moving day, she probably won't take herself off and threaten to hurt herself.

And more important....which will cause more anxiety for you?  She'll have from now 'til then to berrate you.

Your mother is a piece of work!!

Well, she berates me now, and I just tune it out.  And yes, she is a piece of work.  She has a cousin, who is like a surrogate aunt to me.  She and my mom grew up together, and they both had pretty hard lives.  She seems pretty normal and rational, and her husband is a cop, who also seems normal and rational.  Now my mom puts on airs when they visit or when she talks to them on the phone, but I sometimes wonder what they really think about her grandiose claims.  Evidently, she told my aunt that she would grieve herself to death if I left home too.  I think I might have heard part of that conversation, where my aunt said something along the lines of that was unreasonable.  I wish I was a little closer to my aunt, and I would just ask if she knows much about my mom's craziness.

[Sela]

Hi Tanya,

I bet many of us have had to let go of similar hopes.  I know I have.  It's not an easy chore but necessary.  I'm not sure I've even got there, to be honest but what I have done is altered my hope to......

"possibly.....some day......"

and I've decided to live in the now.  If it happens, it happens and if it doesn't, I still get to live my life!

No matter what you decide, make a plan for the suicide threat thingy.  If she does it on moving day regardless if you talk to her ahead of time, your plan will save you from caving into her manipulation and drama.  You'll have to decide to be the one to stay in the other room reading a book this time.  It's not your responsibility and never was.

Off I go.......

Good luck and keep going!!  Things will get better!!  Soon, you'll be enjoying your new home!!

Sela

[tayana]

Sela, CB,

My mom is a big one for making promises she does not keep.  We'll go there some day.  We'll go visit.  Etc.  I don't believe her promises anymore.  This is just one more thing I have to stop believing that she's going to say, "You're doing the right thing, and I'm proud of you."

Sela, if she pulls that suicide thing, I'm calling 911 again and this time I'm not going to the hospital.  And if I do go to the hospital, I'm going to tell the mental health official who comes to talk that yes, I thought she was serious.  Yes, I think she wants to hurt herself.  Yes, she is a nutcase.

CB, I really hate that I have this need for approval.  I wish I could make it go away, but I always want to hear someone say, you are doing the right thing.  It would just make me feel so much better.

Although, I did sleep last night, which was a good thing.

[tayana]

CB, I forgot to say.  Thanks so much for this.  It means so much to me. 

And by the way, I think you can do it.  You have so impressed me with your clear thinking, your level-headed planning.  I love the way you have talked to your son to prepare him.  You are one smart cookie and, you don't realize it, but you don't need her stamp of approval.

[Stormchild]

 I'm sorry (especially to Stormchild) that I haven't posted for a while.  I was just too emotionally drained.  I know I don't have to apologize, but I wanted to say this.

((((((((((Sally))))))))))

no need to apologize... I'm just glad you're back and glad to know what was going on. Talk about things when you feel up to it...


(((((((((( ))))))))))

[tayana]

Ami,

I'm just going to kind of go with my gut.  If I am able to tell her, "I've always been afraid of you.  My son is afraid of you, and that's not right."  I will.  I had sort of planned to tell her today, but she's busy playing martyr, so I decided to wait until Sunday night, after our family get together (I hate those) then at lease I can't be accused of ruining the weekend.  I'll feel plenty of guilt without giving her more ammunition.

Here is a typical conversation, and one of the reasons I'm moving.  My son was making microwave popcorn and there was a bacon tray in the microwave.

"Why did you put that clean dish in the sink?"  I couldn't hear his reply.

"Well I don't appreciate waking up to sink full of dishes every morning.  It would be different if somebody else would wash dishes once in while, but I'm the one that has to do it.  Now I've worked my a** off all day, and I don't appreciate coming in here to find trash on the floor and a sink full of dishes.  Now I've got to clean up this mess."

Martyrdom.  Gotta love that.

[Stormchild]

Hi tayana

I'm siding with Amy on this... voting for one step at a time and get out first... because once you are out, you have a safe place to go to after you confront her...

Susan Forward is very supportive of confronting one's toxic parents... but she never seems to have dealt with a flaming stalker-type retaliatory vindictive N. If you think you are likely to get flaming stalker-type retaliatory vindictiveness you may want to postpone the confrontation awhile.

In re mama calling you at work - do you have caller ID and voicemail? You can expect a barrage of hassles and interruptions from her for several weeks after you move out. You may need to ignore most if not all of those calls. It will be hard and you will feel guilty, but it will be worse if she hassles you so much that you are unable to get your work done...

you are one brave lady, and a true inspiration. and a good role model for your son, too.

[tayana]

Stormy,

Unfortunately, my work phone does have caller ID, but it only works for internal numbers.  External numbers just show up with a code for external numbers.  And the woman will not leave a message.  She has an aversion to that, so at least I can tell who is calling from the hangups.  She has actually called and complained because I'm not at my desk, to me, not my work.

I don't really think of myself as brave, although that seems to be a theme in the stories I write, just like toxic parents are a theme.  The bravery theme often goes, "there's all sorts of bravery . . .and courage is taking action in the face of fear, not the absence of fear."  Does that mean I'm courageous because I'm taking action in the face of fear?

I'm doing a little surreptitious packing . . .