I've had an argument

[JanetLG]

Can anyone help me understand what's happened this weekend? I've had a dreadful time, and don't understand what's going on. Now I've argued with my husband (really unusual) and he's gone for a walk (i.e sulk).

What happened is this: my stepson and his girlfriend rang on Tuesday last week, wanting to come and stay 'for the weekend'. Even though it's not much notice, we hadn't seen them for a year, so we swapped things around, cleaned the house, and made the time for them. They arrived 6.30 pm Saturday night, in the end, and planned to go out (on their own) on Sunday to do something they'd already arranged, coming back at teatime, then going on to other friends for Sunday night, 'possibly popping back' sometime on Monday if they felt like it. By Sunday morning, that plan had changed too, and they'd decided to still go out for Sunday, but not come back at all.

While they were here, R (my stepson) was quite chatty, as usual, but his girlfriend, H, I've only met 4 times in three years, and I'm afraid I can't stand her. They are both 30. She's just qualified as a doctor, but she's unemployed (as the UK government allowed people to train, with no prospect of a job at the end of it), so she's feeling 'vulnerable' (and poor - she was expecting to be on £100K by now). I work from home, with my own business, and we have a flexible lifestyle. We seemed to spend the few hours we had to talk, justifying our way of life, etc. It was just so STRAINED.

And the food...she's possibly anorexic/bulimic (I was anorexic, but I've, peculiarly, got no sympathy for the kinds of behaviour she shows). She waits till you've made her something, THEN she says she doesn't eat that, or she surreptitiously puts it on her boyfriend's plate. Or when you've all finished eating, she immediately says 'can I have an apple - something fresh, you know?'. I find it really rude, and irritating. Of course, all of this went right over my husband's head, as he wasn't involved in preparing the food, so he doesn't know what I'm talking about.

He says I'm starting to see NPD-traits in everyone. I DO think she's manipulative, but I don't think she's got NPD.

But now that they've gone, I've been in tears all day, and I actually feel as if someone's pissed on my bedding. Does anyone understand what I mean?

Any insight on this would be very welcome, as I'm so confused right now.

[Ami]

Hello Friend,
    I am so sorry  that you are hurting. I am glad that you started a thread,though. I am sure that it will help. Something hit me and I could be totally wrong. I think that it started on HER part,but you may unconsciously 'taken the bait"
  I think that she may have been threatened by you(for whatever reason).I think that it was a "power play" situation.It sounds like she was having  a 'turf war" with you.If not, she is simply a rude person  It sounds like it will just work itself out with your H , after they leave       Love and  a Big Hug   Ami

[lighter]

First I want to sympathize with you about how the visit made you feel.  I don't think you were seeing things that weren't there. 

Now, I'm not sure why you and your husband argued.  It seems as though you vented to him about how you were feeling and he didn't validate you?  Or was there an argument with the girlfriend and stepson?  Did your husband jump on you for rude behavior?  I can't really tell what happened except that your husband doesn't agree with your perception and he stated that.

If your husband simply wants a peaceful day of visting with his son, once a year, and to pretend he likes the girlfriend then I can understand that too.  He shouldn't throw you to the wolves though. 

You can choose to be proactive in the future about the visits but your husband will always love his son and want to see him. 

Before I suggest preparing food in advance and stocking the fridge with "fresh" food before leaving everyone to their own devices next visit.... I'd like a little clarification about what you argued with husband about, specifically? 

Hope you're feeling better soon. 

[Stormchild]

OH Janet can I relate to this.

First, dear, you weren't visited. You were Dad's Hotel, and you figured that out right quick like. [Edit in: I really like lighter's comment about stocking the fridge and letting them fend for themselves. You may be a hotel but that doesn't mean you have to be a full service one. Be a self-serve B&B.]

Second, the food hostility thing is probably much more common over here in the Colonies, but it's not unheard of in your part of the world... CS Lewis wrote about it in The Screwtape Letters as 'gluttony of delicacy', where the whole point is to put people out as much as possible while all the while pretending one's needs are simple and really, what is all this fuss about? I only want... [something she'll turn her nose up at the moment you put the plate in front of her].

Dunno what's with the girlfriend... she may feel insecure bc of not being employed... she may be unemployed bc she acts like this on her interviews. But a great deal of domestic hostility is expressed in pantomime at the dinner table, and you know, a lot of the time it's about asserting control... she may feel compelled to remind you who 'owns' your stepson now. Too bad, if so, that she has to make you into a competitor.

And the business about accusing you of seeing an N under every wastebasket... oh dear. Why is it that people want us to be more aware and perceptive until we actually are, and then, when we are, and they see what this means, we're accused of all kinds of negativity and paranoia? God grant me patience with this one.

One thing to remember is that - sorry, don't mean to be sexist - men don't generally 'do' psychology as a life skill, not as well as women, anyway, because of the 'soft social skills are the woman's department' thing. They don't have to; they get to run things anyway. And of course, fellows have to feel competent - that's an expectation both we and they put onto them. There are plenty exceptions, but in general, guys aren't all that much into what my older male colleagues like to call 'that touchy-feely hold hands sing Kum Ba Ya' stuff.

So it's always possible that when you get more competence in an area like this, one that guys aren't all that into anyway, and aren't all that comfy with in general, it's going to cause a bit of domestic discomfort. Not even up at a conscious level, just a feeling that, well, you're taking this stuff awfully seriously and getting a bit... above yourself.

I have no earthly idea how to handle this; you can't unlearn what you know, and why should you? and you can't afford to feign ignorance. Growing doesn't have to mean growing apart; it can mean new things to share, but that only works when both parties want to share and grow together.

I really don't have an answer for it, but I hope this helps in some way.

[Hopalong]

Hi Janet...

Could this have had even more impact that you thought?

she's possibly anorexic/bulimic (I was anorexic, but I've, peculiarly, got no sympathy for the kinds of behaviour she shows

Could it be that this triggered defensiveness and tension (along with their inconsiderate behavior)? I was wondering if perhaps her presence reminded you of a terrible time in your own life when food ruled you. Maybe she's a frightening reminder?

(((((((((Janet)))))))))

Hops

[innerquest]

Janet,

My classmate visited me after a conference a few weeks ago, I did not invite her, she emailed, left messages, asking other people to relate message to my sister to call mel. I was still in my dark period about my mom.  Finally, I relented and did the "have to" thing, to call her back, arrange her to stay with me for half day and a night.  She is rude, self obsessed, one up you on smallest things.  I felt uncomfortable of her araisive moments.  But I did not catch on what is going on, because I never thought people who visiting you may not have best intentions towards you.  I think she came to check on me, see if I am of any use to her business endeavour, and to show her super women achievements. After she left, I fumed several days of the toxicity she left me.  Almost everytime I did "have to" thing, I got burned, slighted, abused or used.  I have been doing "have to" my whole life!  And it did not do me any good.  It is time to change.  How?   

Janet, I have to insights about your stepson's visiting:
1. when offspring visiting their parents, they feel to use it as accommodation is a given, and they can use their time anyway suits them.  When they are back, it is like turn into 10 year old, they won't think about social ettequtes.  Especially people without kids.

2. the girl is silently controlling people, anyboday spent long enough with, would be tranined on tipytoes or run away.  They are not loud, rude, agressive, they do their thing politely, only the target can feel it.  Other people won't see it.

In this case, I wonder what you can say smartly/politely to the girl to fight back using stormchild's strategy:

When you hit a glitch, try Leveling [a nondefensive, nonblaming, direct statement of what you see and feel is going on.] See how this is reacted to.

If you Level with a person and get defensiveness, arrogance, attack, or ignoring in response, you can be reasonably sure that they own a significant portion of the communication problem. No matter how good a communicator they appear to be, no matter how charmingly they come across when they are getting their way.

Any suggestions?

[bigalspal]

Hi Janet,
Here's a trick me & my husband use to tell if it's me (reacting to my N mother's criticisms in my childhood) or if someone really DID act disrespectfully to me.
I quietly take him to the side, & asked him: "Am I right to feel this way?" "Or am I over reacting?" "Did that REALLY happen the way I think it did?"
You might think that sounds submissive, but it's really not!
We have been married 15 years & I really do trust him to gently tell me the truth.
We worked out this plan a couple of years ago, because I kept freaking out in social situations.
EVERYONE was being mean to me! At least that's what I thought!
It's really helped me not to embarrass myself
I am so "over sensitive". I have no barometer when it comes to other people!
But, having said all that, it does sound like she was being an ungrateful twit! LOL!
You tried so hard to please her!
We have adult children about the same age & they really do drive you crazy.
Take care,
Bigalspal

[reallyME]

Janet,

I agree with most of what the other posters have told you, about the "turf wars" with your son's GF, and her being inconsiderate and feeling intimidated by you.

I want to add something else to the pot to consider.  You mentioned that the girl might have anorexia/bulemia.  Having dealt with quite a few ladies who had this disorder, I want to suggest to you, that you son's GF may not be playing with a "full deck" mentally.  You might be dealing with someone who has some really deep issues, due to the starving of her body and thus, her brain cells.

 I am not by any means excusing her behavior in your home.  You will definitely want to set and enforce firm boundaries with her if there are to be future visits, but the eating disorder can definitely come into play when it comes to communication and relationship.

For the record...most of the dysfunctional people in my life...X,NS, etc...all had eating disorders...either anorexia nervosa or bulemia

~Laura

[JanetLG]

Thank you to everyone who's spent time giving me their opinions on this - they've all been very helpful. Me and my husband talked things out last night after he came back from his 'walk' (sulk), so we're OK, now, which is good, but I want to understand this to prevent it happening again.

There's been so many suggestions in the posts so far, I'll try to reply to them in bits:

Ami,

"I think that it started on HER part,but you may unconsciously 'taken the bait" "

Yes, I think I responded to something that she did, and it surprised me. Not sure yet quite what it was that I reacted to, though.

" I think that she may have been threatened by you(for whatever reason).I think that it was a "power play" situation.It sounds like she was having  a 'turf war" with you.If not, she is simply a rude person "

We both find her rude, but I think she DOES feel threatened by me, but my husband thinks I'm over-reacting.

Bean,

" Your husband may be less objective than you because it is his son? Perhaps he doesn't want to think or talk badly of them?"

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. He deals with it by not talking about it, even though last night he admitted that he is very worried that his son is getting long-term entangled with this woman who, he thinks, will drop him when she finds out what she REALLY wants to do. Hints dropped by her over the weekend include going to New Zealand to get a job as a doctor. My stepson has a good job here in the UK, as an electronics engineer, so he doesn't need to emigrate to find work, but he might follow her...neither me or my husband would like that, really.

The thing about the incident with the request ' can I have a Fresh apple?' is that it was said to me, AFTER the others had gone out of the kitchen..so they didn't hear it (or other comments over the weekend about food). So my husband says 'all that just went over my head. Can't you forget it? It's no big deal'. Well it is to someone who's had anorexia, because control games over food are VERY important, and I see what she's doing, I just don't know why. You reject a person by rejecting their food. It's very basic.


Lighter,

Thank you for saying this:  "  I don't think you were seeing things that weren't there. "

You wrote: "Now, I'm not sure why you and your husband argued.  It seems as though you vented to him about how you were feeling and he didn't validate you?"

Yep, that's right.

There wasn't an argument with the girlfriend and stepson. It was just a bit 'cool' while they were here, and a bit superficial, conversationally. I think that's a shame, considering we don't see them to catch up with what they're doing very often.

 "Did your husband jump on you for rude behavior?" No, I was very 'restrained' while they were here ...possibly TOO restrained, as he didn't hink there was a problem *at all* until AFTER they'd gone, when I dissolved into tears.

"If your husband simply wants a peaceful day of visting with his son, once a year, and to pretend he likes the girlfriend then I can understand that too. " Yes, so can I. I'd like that, too, even if we don't like his choice of girlfirend.

 "He shouldn't throw you to the wolves though. " I don't think it was that strong, but, usually he understands, and occasionally he doesn't. When that happens it surprises me and upsets me, as usually we are very close. Sometimes, I just have to accept that he's got a willy and I haven't.  

"You can choose to be proactive in the future about the visits"

I suggested that, and that's where the argument seemed to start...  I get the 'he's MY son' and I'LL arrange the visit' That's what is annoying - I just seem to get it presented as a  fait accompli, and I just spend the time in the kitchen.

" but your husband will always love his son and want to see him. " Yes, but I think he realises (as I do) that his son might emigrate because of this girlfriend, and I think this might be at the root of all this.

" I'd like a little clarification about what you argued with husband about, specifically?  " It seemed to be that he'd wanted to 'get over' the uncomfortable visit as soon as possible by spending Sunday doing 'something nice' (re-wiring the hifi system was what he chose to do), whereas I needed to sit on my own and think things through, which, once he realised what I was mulling over, he decided that that was 'stupid' and 'a total waste of a day'. I told him my feelings were valid, but that they were just different from his. But still valid. He kept saying I 'should' think this and 'should' think that, and it niggled me. He's not usually like that.

 Stormchild,


"you weren't visited. You were Dad's Hotel" Yep, sure was. I don't like it when people 'visit' but then let it be known that they have planned what they'll do while they're in your area...but it doesn't include *you* going to the places with them.



" the girlfriend...  may feel insecure bc of not being employed... she may be unemployed bc she acts like this on her interviews." Yes, I'm not sure why, but she DOES come across as insecure.

" Too bad, if so, that she has to make you into a competitor. " Yes, because I'm obviously not, although I did used to get on well with him (still do), but perhaps it's the *relationship* between me and my husband VERSUS her and R's that is so obviously different, and it's THAT that she feels uncomfortable about. We are very happy, on the whole, and I have heard via my husband's first wife that my stepson wants kids, but that H doesn't. That must cause huge arguments at times between them.

"And the business about accusing you of seeing an N under every wastebasket... oh dear. " Yes, I don't know how to be *less well-informed* than I am, especially when it's helping me so much. I dunno, men and their little insecurites!! I don't think you're being sexist, I think you're being honest.

" getting a bit... above yourself." is exactly how I'd describe my husband's response last night, and that's very out of character for him.

What you've said has helped, Stormchild, but I don't have all the answers yet, either!

CB,

" I'm sorry the visit was hard. It was probably hard for your husband, too and he doesnt know how to deal with both of your disappointments at the same time. " Yes, I think that's it...he does try to 'hold the hurt' for both of us, sometimes.

" Nice to hear that he went out to take a walk and think about it.  " Yes, and he came back with a rose for me - isn't that sweet? How can I be angry with him for long? I think this is why we get so upset when we're upset...it's just so unusual for us.

Hops,

"Could it be that this triggered defensiveness and tension (along with their inconsiderate behavior)? I was wondering if perhaps her presence reminded you of a terrible time in your own life when food ruled you. Maybe she's a frightening reminder?"
Yes, she is. I have had so many screaming matches in the past (mainly teenage years) with my Nmum. Food is such a battleground. My husband said that I have felt this terror (his word) of people coming into our house and ignoring my boundaries before, which is true. I have had so many boundaries violated in the past, to have someone *staying* in my house, and feel that they are walking all over me, and I don't have the power do stop it, does frighten me. And no-one else seems to see it like that. A soon as they'd left, I felt like getting the disinfectant out. I went round the house almost 'patting' things to make my mark again - very basic, instinctual stuff.


Innerquest,


"when offspring visiting their parents, they feel to use it as accommodation is a given, and they can use their time anyway suits them.  When they are back, it is like turn into 10 year old, they won't think about social ettequtes.  " I think this is very insightful. I have never had to put up with the selfishness of a two-year-old in the house. But when people get to be 30, I expect them to behave like adults, whatever the relationship. Is that too much to ask?

" the girl is silently controlling people, anyboday spent long enough with, would be tranined on tipytoes or run away.  They are not loud, rude, agressive, they do their thing politely, only the target can feel it.  Other people won't see it." Yes, quite.

I'd like to try levelling, but at the time it was happening, I couldn't quite believe it was happening, so I didn't respond in time.

Anyway, I've had lots of responses to think about, and I feel a lot better now! I'm just glad I've got this forum to go WAAAAHHHHH!!!! on occasionally.

Thank you

Janet

[JanetLG]

Two posts came in as I was typing my long reply, so I'll answer them first:

Bigalspal,

Yes, we have done that in the past, and I know I can be 'over sensitive'. It's just that this time things went so weirdly! And she WAS an ungrateful twit!! I think she'll make a terrible doctor (if she ever gets a job!).

Laura,

I know that anorexia does strange things to you, mentally. I had anorexia for 12 years (nearly killed me), and I went through times of not understanding things clearly, feeling suicidal, etc. I have no idea what it does to you in the long term, mentally, but I know the physical toll is bad, so the mental one must be, too.


Besee,

I think you are spot on. My husband feels a lot of pain over his marriage break up, still (it was 16 years ago). His son went off the rails for a while, and I know he feels guilty for not being there and helping him grow. But he's done a good job really, and his kids do at least still want a relationship with him. He just feels deeply about things, and isn't always able to articulate that (men and willies again, I think!). I think this whole episode has been not so much about the girlfriend per se, as what she's brought up.

I think, as to how I feel about my home, I have a very strong 'homely' feeling about where I live, and working from home, with my husband, means that we are together in it for 24 hours a day, every day, so it feels more important to me perhaps as a place of refuge than it does to other people in their homes.

Janet

[WRITE]

you've got good advice here already, I just wanted to add, it seems pretty normal in children even adult children to take advantage of parents and treat them in ways which are unacceptable & wouldn't be tolerated in other relationships ie they cross boundaries with relish!

If it's not your son and daughter you'll maybe have even less patience with this- I know other people's kids irritate me sometimes in ways mine doesn't.

If there's a sense of treading on eggshells around the boy from the past even more so....

I'm reading a book Janet called Necessary Losses: The Loves, Illusions, Dependencies, and Impossible Expectations That All of Us Have to Give Up in Order to Grow by Judith Viorst. It's opening my eyes, it really is, about how unrealistic I have been at times that everyone will behave perfectly.

I so wanted to create that perfect refuge you are talking about, and in some ways I have- but I live alone and I know that if I have someone living with me ( even my son ) sometimes I have to put up with sulks/ moods/ upsets/ smells/ noise etc.

That's still hard for me too, but it gets easier to keep perspective once I recognise what exactly i am reacting to.

I think this will be a useful exercise and I am guessing another time someone is in your house won't be quite as bad.

***

re disinfectant, once when I was a naughty teenager every time my dad's new lady friend went to the bathroom I made a big show running in there with bleach and disinfectant to clean! 

[lighter]

Glad you're feeling better, Janet.

[dandylife]

Janet,
I just wanted to say that even normally polite and wonderful people who stay with you can cause bad feelings.

We had this wonderful, charming fun man come to stay with us one weekend. He lives in Scotland (we're in USA) and he was traveling here for business/pleasure. Anyway on the morning he was to leave we woke up and it was a normal business day for us (we work from home) but I asked at about 8:30 AM, "So, ready for breakfast?" Stupid choice of words because his answer was, "No not quite yet." When in actuality, I had exactly 35 minutes to make him breakfast, clean up and get to work. So I stupidly let it go and fumed as the clock ticked away. I got busy on the computer and he finally, sheepishly asked, "could I have one of those apples?" By then I was deep in work. I felt bad but... he had his chance! I should have originally just told him, "I've got 30 minutes before I get to work and then you're on your own if you want breakfast." Or some such thing. I guess the point is if you make yourself clear on your own expectations and needs, then they can sort of adapt to you - at least they'll now know what to expect, also.

Dandylife

[JanetLG]

Bean,

I'm glad it's not just me who has this hang-up about home-space. My husband was saying today, while we were out walking, that he supposes that SOME people don't like walking through the woods, or don't feel the attracton of sitting under a tree. We started talking about the safety of home, and I think I got across to him a bit more about how I need to feel safe in my own space. He feels it too, only not as severely as I do. It must be an N-survivor hang-up, about boundaries and stuff.

Write,

That sounds like a book worth getting...

Yes, I think the next time anyone visits, I'll be more aware of what's happening. I know that when *other* people (not my husband's kids) visit, the tension isn't half so bad. I do get on with them (his kids), but there's always this slight feeling of 'us' and 'them' which I don't think you can ever eradicate completely if you turned up on the scene halfway through Act 2, if you see what I mean.(My husband had been divorced 6 weeks when I met him)

Lighter,

I'm feeling a lot better now, thanks!

dandylife,

I do find it hard to set out in advance what my 'terms' are to anyone visiting...and I think that's part of the problem. But sometimes with my husband's kids, he'll have arranged something, and not tell me because he honestly thinks it's probably what I'd have decided with him, if I'd have been in on it...trouble is, if I'm NOT 'in on it', I feel a bit like I'm being plotted against, even if it's something as superficial as whether or not we'll go shopping in the morning and go for a walk in the afternoon, or the other way round.

When we're just the two of us, we discuss *everything*, but I think where his kids are concerned, he does go into 'I'm the parent' mode regarding organising things with them...and because when they were little, that was obviously before I was on the scene, he doesn't think to include me. It's a bit baffling, though.

Janet

[dandylife]

Janet,
I think you just found your own answer.

You wrote: "I know that when *other* people (not my husband's kids) visit, the tension isn't half so bad. I do get on with them (his kids), but there's always this slight feeling of 'us' and 'them' which I don't think you can ever eradicate completely if you turned up on the scene halfway through Act 2, if you see what I mean.(My husband had been divorced 6 weeks when I met him)"

AND

"... sometimes with my husband's kids, he'll have arranged something, and not tell me because he honestly thinks it's probably what I'd have decided with him, if I'd have been in on it...trouble is, if I'm NOT 'in on it', I feel a bit like I'm being plotted against, even if it's something as superficial as whether or not we'll go shopping in the morning and go for a walk in the afternoon, or the other way round.When we're just the two of us, we discuss *everything*, but I think where his kids are concerned, he does go into 'I'm the parent' mode regarding organising things with them...and because when they were little, that was obviously before I was on the scene, he doesn't think to include me. It's a bit baffling, though."

I think the root of the problem is that you feel left out, like the power to deal with the situation has not been granted to you because you feel like you're an outsider. Your husband reinforced this by getting upset with you instead of validating your feelings.

You can either take the power and deal with things outright next time they are there, or speak with your husband about it and let him know how important it would be for him to make you feel included.

Dandylife